Playing a caster

[Quxelopqr]

So I'm about to join a group that's already going on, and from what the dm told me he thinks they'll want me to play a caster (I'm fine with playing anything so long as I get to play, and am going to ask the current party what they feel their group lacks so I can fill that role). My question is, I have very little experience with casters as a whole (I played a half fey sorceror once) and I'm scared I'll overpower the rest of the group since all I hear is how uber casters are. Is there a good way/suggestions to play a caster (probably either a cleric or wizard, maybe a sorceror) as balenced and not overpowering?

[Gorbash]

Being Batman.

This will be your Bible from now on.

[AmberVael]

If you don't know how to overpower with casters, it's pretty unlikely that you will be able to overpower someone with a caster unless you really stop and make a thorough examination of every part of the class.
However.
If you're looking for more balanced, and you are inexperienced with casters, I suggest a Sorcerer. Sorcerers can fill the role of caster easily enough while not being as all powerful as a wizard- and you have to worry less about rationing out certain spells in certain amounts at certain times. You have more magic per day and less preparation requirements.
Avoid overuse of save or die spells, and more on just boosting and enhancing your allies. It won't make you less powerful, but it will make others feel just as useful while you are effective. Empowering the party is a role that detracts from no one's experience.
Still, toss in a direct damage spell or some direct attack spells against enemies just so you can add in your own dose of win every once in a while (because it is just FUN to light things on fire sometimes).

^: He said NOT overpowering- IE, as in balanced with the rest of the party. Batman is how to make wizards as best you can (without cheese) so I don't think it is what he's looking for.

[dman11235]

...what? You aren't good at playing them and you think you'll overpower it? No, I think you'll do just fine. It does take some work to find the really powerful combinations of spells. it doesn't just happen.

Now, I can help you with your build a bit, but first I need you to repeat after me: casters are more powerful, but not overpowered, with the exception of certain circumstances that require work to do.

You can make any caster at any power level you want, it's just that the big five have more of an opportunity to be overpowered than some.

Now: what do you want to do.

EDIT: Curse the ninja(s)!

[nerulean]

Casters are the easiest classes to make overpowered because spells give you the most possible options to make them overpowered with. A caster on its own isn't inherently overpowered. Play whatever you think will be enjoyable.

If you want to make sure you're useful to the party, then reading the guide to being Batman isn't a bad idea- something the Batman wizard is perfectly capable of doing is leaving the kills to other members of the party, and even if you just take a few spell ideas off it then you won't end up doing the entire adventure by yourself.

If you don't want to borrow anyone else's advice as to how to play the class, then read spells carefully and consider effects to them other than the obvious ones. Fireball, for example, doesn't really have any, but a Solid Fog has a lot of little knock-on effects that aren't mentioned in the spell description if you think about it in actual situations.

[Gorbash]

I actually cannot believe I didn't got ninja'd. I enlightened one soul to the teachings of LN. Like someone did it to me. I think I will cry.

[Chronos]

There are enough buff spells out there that you could pretty much entirely fill a sorcerer's list with them. Between buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control spells, you can fill out a very strong list. Just steer away from the save-or-die spells, and maybe the direct damage, and you'll leave your party feeling useful.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

^: He said NOT overpowering- IE, as in balanced with the rest of the party. Batman is how to make wizards as best you can (without cheese) so I don't think it is what he's looking for.

TLN's particular guide is a great way to play with the party, and let them think they are doing all the work, it heavily focuses on impairing enemies so that your applies can take care of them, but can feel like they did all the work.

[Quxelopqr]

I'm still not sure what I'll be playing (I might end up as a cleric), but I was told I'd be coming in at around 11th level. I was good enough as the sorceror to kill things (but my dm in that campaign gave magic items to people who roleplayed well, and my character was fun to roleplay- imagine being the 19 year old kid who's mom is forced to 'marry' the pit fiend that killed your father), but I don't think I overoptimised (mostly a blaster).

I'm not so much concerned with being useful as the party apparently lacks casting characters, but I think that at 11th level I won't be too bad, and might actually be needed (the dm told me he likes to give his party some crazy encounters, he showed me the one for the fight before my character's introduced-it was nuts).

[CASTLEMIKE]

Consider playing a Beguiler the skill monkey caster in the box. Really nice if you can take the Precocious Apprentice feat trick for Scorching Ray at first level to fuel the Reserve feat Fiery Burst although an Arcane Disciple Fire domain would work better for a L11 PC. Some general magical blasting with general spell utility.

A Stalwart Battle Sorcerer could be fun with a reserve feat for general blasting and a basic spell list to taste.

An Erudite with the Spells to Power variant could be interesting particularly with the Hidden Talent feat for an always availble power plus 7 daily usable powers from the known PC Erudite powers. Really nice with a +1 ECL race like a Dragon magazine Darksun human.

I like using a variant (Non Evil) of Ur Priests as Servants of the Fallen basically Cultmasters or Evangelists for a fallen, forgotten, imprisoned or slumbering DR1 Demi-power or Incarnate or recently raised Saint of a more established power. Can build an interesting PC with the first 5 levels and have spellcasting comparable to regular full casters at L11. This can be fun since the PC has no formal religious organization in game for support and can lead to DM side treks for the power which may not make any sense to the PCs.

[dman11235]

Hmm, then I think a druid, archivist, wizard, or artificer would be best. Cleric might work. Well, do you want to be able to fill any caster role? Or just one and just not have the other ones? Cause if it's the second one a nice buffer cleric build would be greatly appreciated by your other party members. They always seem to like +3 to all saves and attacks and AC. That's just two spells.

[Quxelopqr]

Of those I do not have the book for artificer or archivist, so I think I'll end up being a cleric or wizard (probably the wizard). I'm thinking of making a good-aligned one, specializing in maybe abjuration and banning necromancy and something else, maybe evocation? Or would that nerf me too much?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Consider something like a CG with a Beguiler -1, (Abjurer -4, Wild Mage -1), Ultimate Magus -5. Take the Practiced Spellcaster feat for the Beguiler side. The level dip in Wild Mage lets you apply the +5 CL to Abjurer and the +3 CL to Beguiler. The Beguiler side will allow some meta fueling wizard Empower spells if the Empower feat is taken and the Wizard spells will allow Quickening the Beguiler spells if the feat is taken. Base "Spell" casting shoud be Beguiler -4, Abjurer -10 before applying the UM arcane power to raise caster level.

[dman11235]

You kidding? Banning evocation? A nerf? Hah! Don't make me laugh! But don't ban necro if you want to buff (I think, arcanists are not my strong suit, clerics are). Enchantment and evoc are the two I'd ban. And you could be a focused specialist or a master specialist (or both!). MS abjurer is pretty strong.

If you want to continue on the path of wizard, someone else will have to help you, I'm not experienced with them. If you decide cleric or druid I can help you out some more (I've made a pretty mean protection cleric in my day).

[Quxelopqr]

Well I'm open to cleric advice, I've never played one before and if that's what the party needs, that's what I'll be playing. Could be fun stuff too.

[dman11235]

I have fun playing my RSoP. It's too bad the game is on indefinite hiatus.

I'm going to let you decide what you want to play first. And don't bother looking to the party, they can easily live with whatever you pick. They might appreciate a divine caster a bit more for the healing potential. Also, is psionics available? 'Cause that is the third option: divine, arcane, psionic.

So...what do you want to play?

[Reel On, Love]

Well I'm open to cleric advice, I've never played one before and if that's what the party needs, that's what I'll be playing. Could be fun stuff too.

Try a cleric-archer. If you can be a human and take the War domain for a "cause" (defense of the innocent) and say it has the Longbow as a favored weapon, that's one way; another is being an Elf and taking the Elf domain, which gives you Point Blank Shot for free.

As an elf you then take Point Blank Shot at 1, Rapid Shot at 3, and Zen Archery (CWarrior) at 6 and Quicken at 9 (unless you have access to Complete Champion, in which case you take the Holy Warrior reserve feat at 9).
As a human you just take Point Blank and Precise at 1, and possibly Zen at 3/Rapid Shot at 6 (depends on the DEX/WIS disparity).

You have buffs like Greater Magic Weapon for your bow and Divine Favor for yourself; you can stay at range and do a lot of spellcasting but also be a great archer.

[FinalJustice]

Please avoid the GMW + Divine Power + Righteous Might + Smashing Stuff With Thy Hole Mace way, every time someone does this, God kills a fighter. Please, think of the fighters.

[Quxelopqr]

Oh, I'm definetly not being a clericzilla, I don't know the players well enough to completely screw them over, and wouldn't do that anyways. The archer sounds fun if I pick cleric. Thanks for all the help!

[AmberVael]

TLN's particular guide is a great way to play with the party, and let them think they are doing all the work, it heavily focuses on impairing enemies so that your applies can take care of them, but can feel like they did all the work.

I don't agree. Enabling your party to be more effective allows them to feel that they did all the work- impairing the enemy to the extent a wizard is capable of makes you feel like you're putting down a maimed puppy instead of defeating the BBEG that threatened the world with destruction by his overly large adamantine sword.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

EDIT: Awh you deleted the first one. Now I feel bad.

[AmberVael]

I misread the first time and thought I caught it before I posted it.
Lies! Lies! I am real! I exist!

[holywhippet]

You could try playing as a bard. They are a caster class, but their spells are mainly focused on helping out the party rather than blowing monsters to pieces. They have a heap of other useful tricks as well like knowledge and bard songs.

[streakster]

You kidding? Banning evocation? A nerf? Hah! Don't make me laugh! But don't ban necro if you want to buff (I think, arcanists are not my strong suit, clerics are). Enchantment and evoc are the two I'd ban. And you could be a focused specialist or a master specialist (or both!). MS abjurer is pretty strong.

If you want to continue on the path of wizard, someone else will have to help you, I'm not experienced with them. If you decide cleric or druid I can help you out some more (I've made a pretty mean protection cleric in my day).

Necromancy isn't buffs, it's debuffs. Transmutation is the buff powerhouse.

"Hey, Fighter!"
"Yes?"
"You're a dragon now."
"Awesome!"

[dman11235]

You could do the melee mace wielding holy guy without shaming the fighter you know. It is possible (I've done it). Just focus on buffing the party and keeping them alive first, and THEN go whack things. The RSoP I was playing? Just that. He would buff the party, make sure no one is dying, and then hit something, or step into a position to block enemies off from hurting the party. The primary melee did most of the work though. Dang, this is really making me want to play that campaign again.

Archer clerics are fun I've heard. I have yet to play my raptoran cleric so I have yet to find out for myself.

[Chronos]

But don't ban necro if you want to buff (I think, arcanists are not my strong suit, clerics are). Enchantment and evoc are the two I'd ban.

Enchantment is more important than necromancy for buffs. The only core necromancy buff spell is False Life, and that's self only (there are a few in other books, but I think they're mostly personal, too). Enchantment, meanwhile, has Heroism and Greater Heroism, which are among my favorite buff spells, as well as Rage.

But evocation is a double whammy: It infringes on the fighters' specialty (hit point damage), and it's not actually that useful. Definitely ban evo if you're going wizard.

[Crow]

Selfish buffers can be a major source of group unhappiness when it comes to casters, especially when combat starts.

Buff the group first. They get to be more awesome, which benefits the entire team. Most buffs can be done before combat even begins, so you still get to do your thing when things go down.

[dman11235]

@Chrono (and the other guy who brought it up): That's why I said I'm no expert when it comes to arcanists.

@Crow: And that's why I suggested my cleric buffer (or I'll second the bard/dragon shaman/marshal option, I just like clerics).

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Or you can Sorcerzilla. It's where you buy various rings of Wizardry, and slap so many extended Heroics on yourself followed by a Greater Heroism and whatever else you can think of, followed by Polymorph (or not it's your choice) And overland flight and a few other important buffs, and then run around Ubercharging with a Spiked Chain and Robilar's Gambiting, and Karmic Striking, and Tripping, and Stand Stilling.

[dman11235]

And 1) how are you getting the spells known to do this, and 2) the feats and 3) the stacking of morale bonuses?