Help Creating a Super Strong Munchkin!

[Theodoriph]

Ok, so here goes. =)

I don't know as much about dnd as some of you, so I thought I'd ask for some help.

Our DM is allowing us to use any official sourcebook with the exception of Unearthed Arcana and I'm looking to create a really really strong character just for kicks.

No Magic Equipment allowed.

I'm looking for this character to be a CR 6...preferable no lower than level 2 with an ECL of +4 (level 1 and ECL +5 may not have enough hp...unless you surprise me).

When I was looking through the books, I was thinking of being an Orc and perhaps using the Feral, Lolth-touched and Half-Dragon templates in some combination (if that's possible).

But I was wondering if anyone else had any other ideas.

For instance a Feral Lolth-touched Orc would get:

+14 Strength
-2 Dex
+8 Con
-6 Int
+0 Wisdom (or is it -4...I can't tell on the .pdf if feral gets a +2 or a -2)
-2 Cha

+6 Nat Armor

And since I'd be a 4th level character:

Fast Healing 3
Pounce

ECL: +2

The stats I rolled up (4d6 pick three and then reroll the lowest score...yes...our dm is generous) are: 14, 15, 15, 15, 14, 16

So I could boost my strength to 30, which would give me a +10 mod.

But I'm wondering if anyone here knows away to efficiently get more strength. =) I like the half-dragon template, but the ECL is a bit high for my liking for the benefit my character would derive from it (re: there's a lot of useless fluff I don't need).

If any of you have any ideas, I'd be glad to hear them.

[Nebo_]

The Half-Minotaur template will make you large and give a substantial Strength boost. Barbarian levels are a quick way to get more, too. What class levels are you taking?

[Theodoriph]

I was thinking of taking a Barbarian or Fighter since our party lacks a melee specialist (we have a bunch of rangers and druids and I'm currently playing a ninja)

[Tsotha-lanti]

I don't think you know what "munchkin" means. It refers to a player for who killing things and hoarding treasure takes precedence over everything, and/or who plays the game competitively.

You probably mean something like "twink" or "powerful character." (Unless you want, in fact, a super-strong Small-sized character, in which case I apologise for the misunderstanding...)

[Theodoriph]

One follows from the other =D (re: Hoarding and killing follow from this abomination getting super strong)

[Nebo_]

He means that munchikin refers to the player, not the character.

[Theodoriph]

How can it refer to the player when the player's character should depend on the character the player is playing? Unless some players repeatedly play the same character.

But that would get boring to a player like me. I need variety. Sometimes I want to be a munchkin...sometimes I want to be a pacifist monk with a vow of poverty. And occasionally I want to be a sarcastic gnome who doesn't care for modern life.

But this charactrer...is a munchkin

If it makes you feel better, just pretend I have multiple personalities. =D

[Nebo_]

No, really. A munchkin is a player, not a character. A player who likes to build ridiculous characters and who tries to squeeze every last number out of a character at the cost of suspension of disbelief. In my mind, it's someone who wants to be an optimiser, but isn't very good at it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Go Pun-Pun.

The God of Munckining, Cheese, Twinking, and anything else he wants to be god of.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Nebo, I always made the optimizer/munchkin distinction as follows:

The optimizer plays for group success. If he helped the group overcome the challenge as cleanly and efficiently as possible, given some set of character constraints, he's done well.

The munchkin plays a zero sum game. He wants as much of the game world's power as he can get. Does his character essentially solo every encounter? Good, but it's great if he does it in one action or less.

[Theodoriph]

But what if you play every style depending on what the personality character is supposed to be :P

Or does that just make me a good roleplayer

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

But what if you play every style depending on what the personality character is supposed to be :P

Or does that just make me a good roleplayer

Could you clarify what you mean here? I don't see what it has to do with optimization or munchkinry, other than the fact that munchkins often don't care about the personality of their characters.

[Emperor Tippy]

Nebo, I always made the optimizer/munchkin distinction as follows:

The optimizer plays for group success. If he helped the group overcome the challenge as cleanly and efficiently as possible, given some set of character constraints, he's done well.

The munchkin plays a zero sum game. He wants as much of the game world's power as he can get. Does his character essentially solo every encounter? Good, but it's great if he does it in one action or less.

If someone makes a character that can solo everything in the game in 1 round or less then he isn't a munckin, he is a very talented optimizer.

An optimizer is someone who takes a character concept and finds the most powerful and efficient way to achieve said concept without rules lawyering. A munckin is someone who can't optimize and makes up for it by twisting the rules, rules lawyering, and being pedantic.

An optimizer might have an Incantatrix with Astral Projection, Persistent Shapehchange, Persistent Superior Invisibility, Mind Blank, Iron Guard, etc who is able to solo everything. He is using the RAW without rules lawyering and not using infinite loops.

A munckin is the guy who claims that since the "dead" condition doesn't say you can't act, you get to run around and continue as normal.

[The_Snark]

I think what they're saying is that munchkin is usually a term used to describe a player, not a character.

Anything involving any two of the following templates (feral, lolth-touched, mineral warrior) is pretty munchkinesque, though. Munchkinesque in a not-fun, why-is-this-even-allowed way.

If, for some reason, you persist in making your group want to hate you... feral, Lolth-touched, mineral warrior anthropomorphic baleen whale.

But really, don't do this outside of a joke game. And even then it should only be for a session or so.

[Theodoriph]

Yeah...I just saw the Mineral Warrior. That's pretty rude.




I don't really distinguish between the player and the character. The player becomes the character or maybe the character becomes the players. Either way, they're really one and the same.

[Nebo_]

Either way, they're really one and the same.

No, they really aren't.

[Theodoriph]

I guess I'm just better at getting into my role...that or my role is better at getting into me.

[Nebo_]

Just because you reversed that doesn't mean it makes any more sense. A player and a character are very, very different.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If someone makes a character that can solo everything in the game in 1 round or less then he isn't a munckin, he is a very talented optimizer.

True, but he could have pretty easily taken a build posted by a talented optimizer and used that.

An optimizer is someone who takes a character concept and finds the most powerful and efficient way to achieve said concept without rules lawyering.

I think we're in agreement.

A munckin is someone who can't optimize and makes up for it by twisting the rules, rules lawyering, and being pedantic.

True, but you're talking about the means the munchkin takes, and I was talking about his end goal.

An optimizer might have an Incantatrix with Astral Projection, Persistent Shapehchange, Persistent Superior Invisibility, Mind Blank, Iron Guard, etc who is able to solo everything. He is using the RAW without rules lawyering and not using infinite loops.

Again, very true, but the optimizer realizes Shadesteel McPwnerson (generally) belongs in a group with similarly optimized characters. If the optimizer knows he's entering a campaign where the characters are all untwinked CWar Samurai, he's not going to bring the same character and run over everything.

[Theodoriph]

Just because you reversed that doesn't mean it makes any more sense. A player and a character are very, very different.

I didn't reverse anything. I don't really think you understand what I'm saying. You just seem to be yapping =)


Here in Canada, leaves aren't always green and the sun is not always shining. Sometimes the leaves turn red, and sometimes it rains. You're getting hung up on the idea that 1 should always equal 1.

[The_Snark]

See, the thing about that is that I've always felt a munchkin was the sort of player who tries to be more powerful at the expense of realism and the enjoyment of the other players. Whether or not they do this by exploiting rules loopholes, using broken but legal combinations, or by cheating or incredibly stupid loopholes, I've always felt it more denoted the attitude than the means.

In other words, their characters don't have a personality. They're there to win the game. Playing a character with a munckin personality... doesn't really make sense, at least not by the way I define the word. Maybe you (by which I mean the OP) look at it differently.

There's always going to be some separation between you and your character, though. Even if you're playing your character to the hilt, you're still playing a role that isn't quite the same as you.

[Nebo_]

I didn't reverse anything.

Uh, sure. Whatever you say...

I don't really think you understand what I'm saying. You just seem to be yapping =)

I understand what you're saying, I'm just not sure if I understand what you mean. The two don't seem to be related in this case.

[Chronicled]

I didn't reverse anything. I don't really think you understand what I'm saying. You just seem to be yapping =)


Here in Canada, leaves aren't always green and the sun is not always shining. Sometimes the leaves turn red, and sometimes it rains. You're getting hung up on the idea that 1 should always equal 1.

The only person yapping in this thread is you. Everyone else is giving clear advice that is pertinent to the situation (which appears to be an attempt by you to break your DM's game).

Your analogy seems to be a poor attempt at insisting your definition of the word "munchkin" is the correct one, despite everyone else informing you otherwise.

[Nebo_]

The only person yapping in this thread is you. Everyone else is giving clear advice that is pertinent to the situation (which appears to be an attempt by you to break your DM's game).

Your analogy seems to be a poor attempt at insisting your definition of the word "munchkin" is the correct one, despite everyone else informing you otherwise.

Why, thank you. You said that better than I could have.

[Tsotha-lanti]

No, really. A munchkin is a player, not a character. A player who likes to build ridiculous characters and who tries to squeeze every last number out of a character at the cost of suspension of disbelief. In my mind, it's someone who wants to be an optimiser, but isn't very good at it.

I don't think any of that is automatically implied in "munchkin", actually. That's more "min-maxer" (a term that does not imply proficiency or insight in itself). A munchkin may have no idea how the rules work (in fact, I'd say the stereotypical munchkin can't be bothered to read the rules); they're just in it for the killing and looting. But I suppose these definitions are very changeable.

That certainly doesn't mean that a munchkin can't know and abuse the rules, though.

But what if you play every style depending on what the personality character is supposed to be :P

Being a munchkin is a quality of the player. The munchkin does not play characters. The munchkin is playing tabletop Nethack (probably right down to at least trying to eat the corpses of most things he kills).

Likewise, min-maxing / powergaming / optimizing have nothing to do with your character. They're all playstyles, and therefore something the player does.

"Powergamer", "munchkin" and "min-maxer" are all terms that describe players. None of them can be applied to characters, because characters do not play the game, and can not abuse the game and reduce others' enjoyment. ("Monty-hauler" is sometimes applied to players, too, but it actually describes a type of campaign - "the Monty Haul." I guess "hoarder" might apply to players, although that is actually a legitimate character trait.)

[Toliudar]

Here in Canada, leaves aren't always green and the sun is not always shining. Sometimes the leaves turn red, and sometimes it rains. You're getting hung up on the idea that 1 should always equal 1.

Well, but here in Canada, 1 does always equal 1.

A player is a human being, in our world. A character is a collection of ideas funneled through a rules system and interpreted by a player in cooperation with other players and his DM. I've been working in film and theatre for more than 20 years, and the "become your character" crap doesn't get past year one.

[Baron]

Baron Von Mod:

Chill people, calm down and count to 10. So one of you calls the character the Munchkin and the rest of you say it's the player. So what?

Right you can all take a clip round the ear for getting rude to each other and five minutes in the corner whilst you think about what you've done.

C'mon people you're arguing over a minor point of somantics. It's not even an issue with regards anyone understanding what Theodoriph is asking about. We all know he's trying to tweak a character to be good at fighting. In doing so he's actually done a much better job of explaining what he's after than most people after tweaks do.

Play nice and get back to the point and try and help someone out.

[riddles]

are you looking for the best strength modifier, or the best fighter? because there is a difference

[FinalJustice]

If you want to munchkin, take Vow of Poverty (BoED), since no magic items are allowed, this overpowered in many levels. Your DM you probably ban it, but if you can sneak it in, ph34r.

Pick up a one-and-a-half hand weapon and aim for the Exotic Weapon Master PrC. Awesome Blow is what you want, to put 2x your str mod in your damage, instead of 1,5. After that, you can go for the War Hulk (Miniatures) PRC, doesn't give you BAB, instead, you gain +2 str per level while getting dumber and dumber. Don't remember if you have to be Large size for that, though. If you can manage to put this stuff up, I see your str in the 40's, but you still be suboptimal. No ubercharging and few iterative attacks.

For a munchkiner alternative, you can search for Hulking Hurler builds here or on CharOP boards.

[Keld Denar]

Oompa oompa oompety doo, I've got another riddle for you!

That's munchkinery at its finest.