Shadowdancer worth it?

[LongVin]

I am planning out a character for a campaign(core only) in which the party owns a castle and the surrounding lands. We are starting at level nine and my character is a rogue. You can see him here if you so like

His feats are:
Weapon finesse
Improved Initative
Two weapon fighting
Two weapong defense
Leadership(important for the campaign as it lets me hire soldiers for the castle at half upkeep up to my follower number.)

Now I was debating whether or not to go into a prestige class for the character. At first I looked at assassin but realized despite the easy entry requirements the class was woefully underpowered. I then looked at shadowdancer which had some nice abilities, suc as hide in plain sight, and darkvision and the shadow jump ability.

However the class requires three feats which I do not have in order for entrance. At level 10 I am planning on taking the special ability "Slippery mind" since this appears to be the only really useful ability.

Then I would have to get to lvl 15 before I would be eligable for Shadowdancer.

Now my question is, is shadowdancer a worthwhile class for at the minimun of atleast a 2 level dip? If not going to 4 levels to get shadow jump.

[Craig1f]

Anything you can do to get Hide in Plain Sight is worth it.

[RukiTanuki]

I've always seen Shadowdancer as a nice way to pick up all the nifty rogue bonus feats in 10 levels. Of course, kicking off with HiPS is a good start. :) The abilities of the class are useful for all types of characters; the question usually seems to be whether it's worth whatever you're trading to take the class.

[Chronos]

Shadowdancer is worthwhile in a core-only game, where there aren't any other good (non-evil) options for rogue PrCs, and where there aren't all that many feats that are worthwhile for rogues. With other sourcebooks available, though, there are better ways to get Hide in Plain Sight, better PrCs available than Shadowdancer, and better feats to get instead of the SD prereqs.

At level 10 I am planning on taking the special ability "Slippery mind" since this appears to be the only really useful ability.

Depending on what skills you're concentrating on, Skill Mastery can be huge. Without Skill Mastery, your skills might have an 85% or 90% chance of success, but at high levels, that 10 or 15% chance of failure can mean instant death, and the odds will catch up to you eventually. But being able to always take 10 can take you from 85% chance of success to 100%.

That said, Slippery Mind isn't bad, since it significantly improves your chances of withstanding a fairly broad set of spells that would otherwise ruin your day. It'd be the second special ability I'd choose, after Skill Mastery. And if you use Sneak Attack a lot, Crippling Strike can also be good: Note that ability damage stacks, so 3 or 4 successful Sneak Attacks a round will cut an enemy down by 6 or 8 strength.

[Avor]

I have banned that retarded crap from my games.

-I think it is over powered
-D&D is about fantacy, not knocking off X-man characters(Night Crawler).

[Nebo_]

I have banned that retarded crap from my games.

-I think it is over powered
-D&D is about fantacy, not knocking off X-man characters(Night Crawler).

I'm going to assume this is a joke.

[Chronos]

You do, of course, realize that X-Men is fantasy? And you also, of course, realize that any spellcasting class (you know, the folks that make this a fantasy game to begin with, not just a historical one) can do things that are much more overpowered than Shadow Jumping, much earlier than the Shadowdancer can do it?

[LongVin]

Hmm..Alright. I think once I am qualified for it at level 15, I'll take shadowdancer at 16 so I can disappear in plain sight. Then I shall terrorize all those who oppose me!

Thanks all.

[batsofchaos]

On the subject, one of my players is a Ranger, and they're planning on going into Shadow Dancer level after next (Currently sixth level, Dex-built ranger using the archery tree), and probably for a long-haul in the class. Is there anything inherently stupid in this that I should bring to their attention? Core/SRD classes only for the campaign, if that influences anything.

[Chronos]

Combat ability will lag a bit behind a pure ranger, since he'll lose a few points of BAB, and he won't get to the top of his Combat Style. And if he's focused on wilderness-type skills (Survival, Knowledge (nature), Handle Animal, etc.), Shadowdancer won't support those well. But if he's mostly into the sneaking, it should work out OK.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Also, I'd recommend you eschew TWDefense. It is teh suxxorz. Get Improved TWF, or at least TWRend.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Shadowdancers are not bad fluffwise in a core-only game, but never overpowered at all. In a non-core-only game where you want to get HiPS, get a Dark template from ToM. LA +1, HiPS, increased movement speed (all types) and other nice benefits that are certainly better than the 1st level of Shadowdancer.

So my point is, unless you somehow feel you really want HiPS, I'd rather go with Assassion PrC. At higher levels just cast Greater Invisibility and sneak attack away! As long as the foe can't detect you (due to the invisibility factor) you'll have a chance or two to land some death attacks. Hey, you get HiPS at 8th level, too!



p.s. Shadowdancer's Shadow companion (or whatever it's called) can't control any spawns it may create.

p.s.2 evasion gained from Shadowdancer does not stack with evasion from rogue levels to become improved evasion. Also, shadow jump ability is limited by the distance indicated per day. At 4th level, if you shadow jump for 15 ft, then you can't do any more for the rest of the day. How good is that?

p.s.3 in the OP it was mentioned that assassion looked seriously underpowered for what it does; well, it's not the best PrC in the world, but it still progress your sneak attack dice, lets you cast some good spells and HiPS at 8th level!

[batsofchaos]

Well, he's in the archery tree, so TWD isn't an issue for him.

I don't think the loss of wilderness skills will be too much of a burden for him.

[LongVin]

Decisions, decisions. Maybe Assassin isn't so bad then. I don't like the idea of waiting 8 levels for hide in plain sight but the feat requirements for Shadowdancer is steep though.

[LongVin]

What's the consenus on Two Weapon Defense? Dump it or leave it?

[Azerian Kelimon]

May I suggest an item of at will Greater or Superior invisibility? Hide in Plain sight on steroids and crack, respectively.

And dump TWD. It's useless. In a pathetic way that puts it almost at the level of Monkey Grip.

[LongVin]

Alright. Consider it dumped. Would combat reflexes be considered a good replacement for it?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Sorta. It's an excellent feat, but it's not good for your build. If you want a REALLY good feat, consider Two Weapon Pounce or Rend, which adds Pounce and extra d6's, respectively. They make you much more versatile and punchy.

Or improved Two Weapon Fighting, heh.

[LongVin]

I don't see those on SRD. Are they core?

[Azerian Kelimon]

No, it's in the PHBII. Here is an overview. I can expand on 'em if you want.

[LongVin]

Thanks. I got the PHB II.

I'll just have to run it by my DM.

So it is either one of those or combat reflexes or maybe dodge.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Dodge is a bad idea. Most things that it is a Prerequisite for aren't worth it because you have to spend a feat on Dodge. It only matters on <5% of the attack rolls of your declared target, and not at all on any other rolls. Almost anything is a better choice.

[Azerian Kelimon]

NO!

Please, do not EVER, take dodge. NEVAH! It's teh suxxorz. Take one of those, or frankly, anything else. But do NOT take dodge. You'll regret it. If you have Complete Warrior, I recommend Favored Power Attack. It makes PA's against a favored enemy stronger, and can be REALLY helpful.

Or, if you're out of ideas, Improved Toughness from that same book. Hey, at least it does something.

[tyckspoon]

Dodge is only ever worth it as a prerequisite for better feats. Mobility and Spring Attack are not those better feats except in very specific cases (for Spring Attack, it's when you have a lot of feats to use and are planning to go on and take Rapid Blitz and Bounding Assault, which let you take a second and third attack while springing. Decent with a Skirmishing build.) Elusive Target is really quite nice, however.

[LongVin]

Lol ok dodge is out then.

[LongVin]

Ok rend is out for now, I need a BAB of +11 mine is +6. So that means pounce is in though.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Good thing. In any case, it's the better feat. Just remember, you can do a single move charge if you move 10' out of range. Now, what you need is some way to avoid AoO's.

[LongVin]

Dang. PHB II is not allowed. Combat reflexes it is then

[Overlard]

Dang. PHB II is not allowed. Combat reflexes it is then

Have you thought about Improved Buckler Defence from Complete Warrior? Lets you use a buckler when attacking with your off-hand weapon. Lets you get the shield bonus you would have got from 2WDefence, but you can then enchant it as well.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmmm,

suggestion: take both prestige classes - shadowdancer AND assassin.

9th level rogue
2 levels shadowndancer, getting you hide in plain sight and then
9 levels assassin.

You have 10d6 snea, like a full rogue. But hide in plain sight, all assassin spells, death attack (which will be quite good since you currently already have INT 16).

Get UMD to overcome the BAB problems with a wand of divine power.

Alternatively, if you wish to become a more "visible" lord of your realm, just take blackguard and get the sunder/cleave/power attack route (i.e. replace the two-weapon approach now, or partially by taking 1-2 levels fighter).
You'll then eventually have 7d6 sneak, can also command undead etc.

- Giacomo