Swashbuckler

[Gray5656]

What is the general thoughts about Swashbucklers. They looked fairly fun, fluffwise, and seemed better than a dextrous fighter, but almost everything is better than a fighter . Any advice on playing a Swashbuckler?

[Zincorium]

What is the general thoughts about Swashbucklers. They looked fairly fun, fluffwise, and seemed better than a dextrous fighter, but almost everything is better than a fighter . Any advice on playing a Swashbuckler?

Take three levels of rogue and the daring outlaw feat, or stop at the third level and never look back.

Swashbucklers are fun to play, but their class features are only marginally better than the samurai's, and there's really very little to look forward to after you get insightful strike.

[Bag_of_Holding]

It's quite bad actually. Int to damage sounds very good yet it's a precision-based damage so no good for crit-immune creatures. Other abilities... are just not good enough.

[Collin152]

It's just generally a [oor choice for long term usage.
Though it may help you out for three levels, after that you may as well pick something else with an equal BaB.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I agree that Rogue 3 with Swash seems to be a playable build, if not a lil on the gimpy side.

[Nebo_]

Contrary to popular belief, the Swashbuckler class only has three levels. More become available with some Rogue levels and the Daring Outlaw feat.

[Gray5656]

Hmm, I see, mark it down as another build idea lured away and quietly strangled. Where is the Daring outlaw feat located?

[Zincorium]

Hmm, I see, mark it down as another build idea lured away and quietly strangled. Where is the Daring outlaw feat located?

Complete scoundrel. If you're wondering what it does, it allows rogue and swashbuckler levels to stack for sneak attack dice and some swashbuckler abilities. Essentially, you're a rogue with fewer skill points but higher BAB and hit points.

If you're fighting with two weapons, and you might as well, take a look at the PHB 2 variant if you've got the book available. It's not good, but it's better than what it's replacing.

[bosssmiley]

Light-armoured dexterous fighter types are pretty much b0rked by the combat rules as they stand. Positioning/move action rules penalise them horribly.

These boards (sorry, specific attribution escapes me) suggested giving the swashbuckler class from "Complete Warrior" the "Cityscape" Ranger abilities + a meaningful bonus to their non-armoured AC to make them worthwhile beyond level 3.

Acknowledge that you'll never be a powerhouse on a par with the big 3 (Batman + CoDzilla) and have fun with your swashy anyway. They are inherently win.

edit: or, of ToB is to your tastes, there's the option of a light-armoured Warblade with Diamond Mind and White Raven manoeuvres.

[Talya]

3 swashbuckler, 2 fighter, then go dervish. Mix in a couple levels of champion of corellon larethian if you're an elf. Garnish with martial adept of your choice.

[KillianHawkeye]

They may not be very powerful, but they sure can be fun to play. They work best in a more city-focused campaign, or on the high seas if you wanna be a pirate. Arrr!

[BardicDuelist]

NOTE, THIS CONTIANS HOUSE RULES:

Okay, I was able to convince my DM to allow Daring Outlaw to also stack with the Riposte scout variant in Cityscape (or rather the web enhancement). The reqs. would be +1d6, +1 AC. It worked out nicely.

END HOUSE RULES

For the a swashbuckler, sadly, the factotum seems to work out the best. You have access to other abilities which balance out the weaknesses inherent in the idea that is the swashbuckler. It lets you make ballsy skill checks, deal extra damage, use your intelligence, etc.

Aside from that, the rogue can make a decent swash, especially with two fighter levels. So can the Cityscape ranger vairant.

The riposte scout isn't bad on its own either, with some simple revision to the skill list, but if you are of the type of player that fears house rules, it lacks too much of the flavor needed to really play a swashbuckler.

When all was said and done, I decided that my swashbuckeling ideas were better left to a combat system utterly unlike that used in d20. GURPS is my favorite so far. Then again, I fence, and so I'm sure that jaded me a bit.

[AslanCross]

The Swashbuckler is best for multiclassing, as has been mentioned. Our party once had a Swashbuckler/Fighter, and she seemed to do much more damage on a regular basis than the paladin (most likely because the paladin had LA+1 due to being Aasimar). She was a fun character and did well enough to take out monsters.

I'd go with Swashbuckler/Warblade for the Int/Dex synergy, and focus on Diamond Mind disciplines for extra damage and survivability.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Scout 5/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Duelist 10

1st (Human): Dodge
1st: Two-Weapon Fighting
2nd (Swashbuckler): Weapon Finesse
3rd: Two-Weapon Defense
4th (Scout): Mobility
6th: Power Attack
9th: Elusive Target
9th (Fighter): Combat Reflexes
10th (Fighter): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12th: Improved Two-Weapon Defense
15th: Greater Two-Weapon Defense
18th: Robilar's Gambit

+5 defending dagger, amulet of natural armor +5, bracers of armor +8 or +10, gloves of dexterity +6, headband of intellect +6, ring of protection +5. AC and touch AC while fighting defensively are in the 60s or 70s, and with the Scout's uncanny dodge, you don't lose it when flat-footed.

Start out with Int 16+ and Dex 15+, put all your raises into Int, and get those +4 or +5 inherent bonuses.

The order of feat progression could probably do with some tweaking, but those are my personal preferences. The important ones are GTWD and Robilar's Gambit (which makes it inadvisable for enemies to attack you; they can't hit you.

At lower levels, you may not be competitive with more straightforward melee builds, though.


Also, yeah, Swashbuckler is a three-level class. Technically, you're playing a Scout, not a Swashbuckler in the above example...

[Zincorium]

Tsoth-lanti, I hate to be a downer, but you just spent 20 levels making your character totally irrelevant.

Look at how much damage you'll be doing. Skirmish + insightful strike X a whole bunch of attacks is, like, a bajillion! Except that you have no way of combining TWF and skirmish. You'll be doing 1d4+5+int+strength+2d6 with one attack, or that minus the 2d6 and half str for half of your attacks several times. A poorly optimized monk will do more damage offensively. You also will have difficulty hitting if you're constantly fighting defensively to get that AC boost.

You also don't to jack to anything immune to criticals- plants, oozes, undead, constructs, and anything with heavy fortification available may not even feel it.

No enemy, especially an unintelligent one will target you in preference to another character on the battlefield, and your high AC and robilar's gambit only matter if something is trying to kill you.

Lastly, you've nerfed your skillmonkey role by having to pay double cost for most of your useful skills for the last twelve levels of your character, out of a lower pool of skill points than even an average rogue.

Edit:
To make the message clear, this is what you shouldn't do with swashbuckler, thematically appropriate as it may seem. You'd be better off taking beguiler instead of scout and going into bladesinger, as mediocre as that class is.

[Grynning]

I have always wanted to take a swashbuckler to 11th level just for that once-a-day reroll. Maybe take some Luck Feats and Fortune's Friend levels (also from Complete Scoundrel) to compliment it. Swashbuckler 11/Rogue 3/FF 5 would be kind of fun, optimization be damned.
Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3 is also a good way to enter Dread Pirate from Complete Adventurer, which remains one of my favorite PrC's - which incidentally can also give you a Reroll (if you're honorable) or sneak attack (if you're...less than honorable) and also gives you Acrobatic Charge like Swash 7 would.

[Talya]

I have always wanted to take a swashbuckler to 11th level just for that once-a-day reroll.

Just play a Goliath with the "auspicious marking" line of racial feats.

[Talya]

BTW, I believe a reasonable house rule is to allow swashbuckler levels to count as fighter levels for feat eligibility, and to give them bonus feats at 2,5,8,11,14,17 and 20--in addition to everything they have now. Furthermore, they need the ranger-TWF combat style progression, and Int-to-armor class at some point, like the duelist, but allowing light armor.

[Everyman]

I have to agree with what everyone has said. After the first few levels, their lack-luster AC starts to seriously hinder the Swashbuckler (considering that they are a melee build). Though, I have to admit that the class does lend itself to some seriously interesting builds through multiclassing or gestalt (it works VERY well in gestalt when paired with an INT-based class, like Beguiler).

[Starbuck_II]

I have to agree with what everyone has said. After the first few levels, their lack-luster AC starts to seriously hinder the Swashbuckler (considering that they are a melee build). Though, I have to admit that the class does lend itself to some seriously interesting builds through multiclassing or gestalt (it works VERY well in gestalt when paired with an INT-based class, like Beguiler).

What if you made their dodge ability count against all targets instead of just 1?
Than they would have + 4 Dodge bonus to AC (the rarest bonus to AC). Not that great, but would definately make them better.

[Talya]

Meh, just pump dexterity and intelligence through the roof, use +5 Nightscale Leather (2ac, 10 max dex bonus), and laugh at the mediocre AC of people in full plate.

Armor isn't your problem--it's lack of damage that hurts you.

[Paul H]

Hi

Some time ago looked at Swashbuckler/Warmage mix. Very good at low levels, but falls off at higher levels.

Eg. Swashbuckler 3/Warmage 2, Int & Dex 16. Practiced Spellcaster (Warmage)

Shocking Grasp - +7 to hit Touch AC, 5d6+6 damage. (Int used for both swashbuckler & Warmage).

Bit of one-trick horse, and power lessens at higher levels, but still good at this level.

Cheers
Paul H

[The J Pizzel]

I don't think this is real optimized, but a buddy in a previous campaign did Swashbuckler3/Rogue10 with the daring outlaw feat. He didn't bother with TWF, he instead took Improved Feint (or something to that effect) which lets him Bluff as a Move Action, then would put 13 levels of SA right in their face. Buy this time he also had multiple BAB, so he pretty much would either Full Attack with SA (if he was flanking) or Bluff then SA if he was toe to toe. Bear in mind this player loved Role-Playing and had a blast with this character.

One time they were at a fair/bazarre in the central hub of the city. He had mixed colored dye into murky water and was selling them as CMW potions (his bluff check was beautiful and he role-played this out nicely). He was taking a break, enjoying a turkey leg (think Renassaince Festivals) and was accused of being a fraud. Long story short, iniatives were rolled.

So, for the first 3 rounds he didn't attack, he took total defense and kept eating the damn Turkey Leg. By this point he was down to the bone. So he calmy says:

Gavin (the swashy): I'd like to roll a Bluff Check as my move action (and pretend i'm reaching for my stilleto), and stabb him with my Turkey Leg Bone. Yes, I'll accept the -4 penalty to attack for using an improvised weapon. (Bluff = 28)

Me: uuhhhh, ok. (rolls Sense Motive = 14)

Me: (narrative) Ok, you fake like your bringing your hand down to withdraw your stilleto, his eyes follow your hand down and you realize he's completely taken the bait. Roll for attack.

Gavin: Natural 20. Roll to confirm....uh.....28? Will that work?

Party: NO F***ing Way!?!?!

Gavin: may I roll damage? Good. Oh, whats the damage on a Turkey Leg Bone JP?

Me (still dumbfounded): uh....1d2.

Gavin: sounds good to me. 1d2 (turkey) + 1d2 (turkey) + 7d6 (SA) + 2 (str).

Me: um.....yeah.....you uh...jab the turkey leg into his eye. He twitches just two times before falling lifeless to the ground. 6 inch turkey leg bone protruding from his left eye.

Gavin: I calmly go back to the small 3 ft stone wall surrounding the fountain in the square. Stand atop it and yell: "Freshly brewed healing droughts 1 for 50gp or 2 for 80gp."


I think he made about 2k just off those sales.

jP

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Love the story jp.