Iron Heart Surge

[Titanium Dragon]

I'm playing a warblade and looking at the meaneuver Iron Heart Surge; I've heard it is cool, but I'm not really sure how useful it is. Why do people consider this to be a good maneuver? Is there something about it I'm missing? I think I'm going to take it regardless (as I never use the maneuver I'm switching out of, Wall of Blades, anyway) but I'm not sure if I'd ever use this maneuver either. Why is it good?

[cupkeyk]

Iron heart surge will be one of those once a month topics like monks underpowered or wizards/CoDzilla overpowered huh?

People like it because it is badly written and is then open to (mis)interpretation. But if you think about it, since it can only be used when you can make a standard action it isn't available to most effects that should be actually deadly, like stunned or held or charmed.

[MeklorIlavator]

Well, the best way I can give is to use an example to show how badly worded it is.
Create a Drow Warblade with this maneuver. Go out into direct sunlight, taking the penalties that implies. Activate Maneuver, ending the effect causing said penalties. Congrats, you've ended the sun.
You can also do this with stuff like antimagic fields, but this is the best example I've heard. Personally, my group has just said is makes the user of the maneuver exempt from the effect for a period of time(up to dm interpretation).

[Reel On, Love]

Well, the best way I can give is to use an example to show how badly worded it is.
Create a Drow Warblade with this maneuver. Go out into direct sunlight, taking the penalties that implies. Activate Maneuver, ending the effect causing said penalties. Congrats, you've ended the sun.

Not if you're actually reading the spell. You've ended the DAZZLED CONDITION on yourself.
The sun is NOT an effect with a specific duration.

[cupkeyk]

Iron Heart Surge
Iron Heart
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text

By drawing on your mental strength and physical fortitude, you break free of a debilitating state that might otherwise defeat you.

Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

From the WOTC website. The antimagic field is a spell affecting the drow, so he can end it. the sunlight is an effect that is affecting the drow, so the warblade can snuff the sunlight. Simply removing effect would clarify the maneuver really, spell or condition are better defined terms. sunlight has a determined duration too. ^_^.

[Bag_of_Holding]

From the WOTC website. The antimagic field is a spell affecting the drow, so he can end it. the sunlight is an effect that is affecting the drow, so the warblade can snuff the sunlight. Simply removing effect would clarify the maneuver really, spell or condition are better defined terms. sunlight has a determined duration too. ^_^.

That's like being affected by an arcane magic and declare that it's a condition/effect originated from a god/goddess of magic. IHS, voila no more Mystra.

[bugsysservant]

From the WOTC website. The antimagic field is a spell affecting the drow, so he can end it. the sunlight is an effect that is affecting the drow, so the warblade can snuff the sunlight. Simply removing effect would clarify the maneuver really, spell or condition are better defined terms. sunlight has a determined duration too. ^_^.

Well, spinning the world ahead a few hours is only on par with epic magic, rather than, say, overdeities. So, it's not TOTALLY br0ken....

[Titanium Dragon]

From the WOTC website. The antimagic field is a spell affecting the drow, so he can end it. the sunlight is an effect that is affecting the drow, so the warblade can snuff the sunlight. Simply removing effect would clarify the maneuver really, spell or condition are better defined terms. sunlight has a determined duration too. ^_^.

Sunlight is not an effect, nor is it a spell, so IHS cannot end it. It can end the dazzled condition caused by light blindness, though, and by the wording of light blindness you'd be immune to being dazzled from light blindness as long as you were not suddenly exposed to a bright light again.

By the wording of it, though, it does seem like it'd work to end Solid Fog. Wall of Fire, and similar effects.

[cupkeyk]

ah but a deity's influence doesn't have a set duration. ^_^

[Bag_of_Holding]

ah but a deity's influence doesn't have a set duration. ^_^

"When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds". Just declare that you feel the deity's influence everywhere (making it a... mental condition) and hey, no more gods/goddesses!


Nah, I shouldn't be so cranky just because someone, namely cupkeyk thought of an awesome idea before I thought of it, eh?

[Chronos]

The problem with Iron Heart Surge is that most of the things that by RAW, it can do, no sane DM would actually allow, while the things that it ought to be able to do in a sane game, by RAW, it can't. Dispelling a Fimbulwinter that has the entire continent locked in its icy embrace? Sure. Shake off a Hold Person spell? Sorry, no can do.

[Starbuck_II]

That's like being affected by an arcane magic and declare that it's a condition/effect originated from a god/goddess of magic. IHS, voila no more Mystra.

So that was how Shar ended Mystra and caused the spell plague...

[Jastermereel]

From the WOTC website. The antimagic field is a spell affecting the drow, so he can end it. the sunlight is an effect that is affecting the drow, so the warblade can snuff the sunlight. Simply removing effect would clarify the maneuver really, spell or condition are better defined terms. sunlight has a determined duration too. ^_^.

The sunlight is the cause of the effect; the dazzling is the effect.

The question is, how long does this last? If it simply ends it for good, wouldn't most sun-sensitive species strive to get access to this ability so as to overcome their weakness?

[Cuddly]

Most worlds have a day-night cycle. The duration of a day is typically around 12 hours.

[Fixer]

The sunlight is the cause of the effect; the dazzling is the effect.

The question is, how long does this last? If it simply ends it for good, wouldn't most sun-sensitive species strive to get access to this ability so as to overcome their weakness?

I know, for my purposes, that I rule that it lasts until exposed again. In this case, less than one round. Essentially the sun is making a continuous attack on the individual in question.

I came up with a list for Iron Heart Surge for my warblade, but I think it needs to be tweaked some more.

Area of Effect spells with a non-instantaneous duration
Blinded
Checked
Confused (if 11-20 is rolled allowing the character to act normally)
Cursed
Dazzled
Deafened
Diseased
Enchantment / Charm spells that the character is aware of and has a choice of performing a standard action of their choice
Entangled
Ethereal
Exhausted
Fatigued
Frightened (if unable to move and, therefore, allowed to take voluntary actions)
Gaseous Form
Incorporeal
Invisible
Knocked Down (Not really sure how this works, though...)
Poisoned
Polymorphed (if able to take a standard action)
Prone (Not really sure how this works, though...)
Shaken
Sickened
Staggered

[Person_Man]

Oh come on guys, lets not confuse a newbie by telling him that Iron Heart Surge can end the sun. That's like saying a falling warblade can end gravity if he readies a standard action and is then tossed off a cliff. It's hilarious, but its not going to happen.

[Jastermereel]

a falling warblade can end gravity if he readies a standard action and is then tossed off a cliff.

Thats a great one! Why didn't we think of that earlier?

[Titanium Dragon]

Fixer, you missed Immobilized. Sadly, it is not possible to use it to escape a grapple because maneuvers aren't specifically listed; at least, I'm pretty sure you can't.

[namo]

The Sage has recommendations about the use of maneuvers in a grapple : see the FAQ.

[Fixer]

Fixer, you missed Immobilized. Sadly, it is not possible to use it to escape a grapple because maneuvers aren't specifically listed; at least, I'm pretty sure you can't.

Actually, I think I omitted Immobilized because of the whole, 'If you cannot move, you cannot use a maneuver' rule. Maybe I got something crossed.

[Animefunkmaster]

Most worlds have a day-night cycle. The duration of a day is typically around 12 hours.

The day is not an effect, it is a measurement of time. With a roar of effort you have ended... an hour.

[Frosty]

I do not see it as overpowered to let a swordage use Shadow Jaunt or something to escape a grapple.

[Sinfire Titan]

Actually, I think I omitted Immobilized because of the whole, 'If you cannot move, you cannot use a maneuver' rule. Maybe I got something crossed.

Immobilized is like having your feet Sovereign Glued to solid stone. It just holds you in one place.

Hey, technically speaking, is Life considered an affliction if you are Emo? Because then you just found a way to make a Warblade commit suicide via Dominate without actually trying to: IHS himself to death.

[Cuddly]

The day is not an effect, it is a measurement of time. With a roar of effort you have ended... an hour.

The condition is the sun, with a duration of one day.

[Starbuck_II]

The condition is the sun, with a duration of one day.

Wouldn't the Sun end when it is night out? Thus really only 16 to 20 hours?

[hamishspence]

You could say its not a condition, its an object. Same principle would apply to a can of radioactive waste. You might end the Radiation Poisoning effect, but the can would remain.

[elliott20]

wait, are there people out there who actually would play it that way though? I mean, I know it's technically RAW, but even then, that's just moronic. If the OP is asking about the maneuver because he wants to pick it for an actual game, wouldn't it be reasonable of us to assume that his GM would practice a little bit of common sense with this?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

wait, are there people out there who actually would play it that way though? I mean, I know it's technically RAW, but even then, that's just moronic. If the OP is asking about the maneuver because he wants to pick it for an actual game, wouldn't it be reasonable of us to assume that his GM would practice a little bit of common sense with this?

Play it like what? Ending the sun? Not likely.

Ending conditions it doesn't end by RAW, but might have been intended to (Daze, Frightened, ect.)? Maybe.

Ending AMF fields and Stinking Clouds? Yes definitely. WotC even says it does in the FAQ. I know some people who slavishly obey the FAQ.

[bugsysservant]

Hey, technically speaking, is Life considered an affliction if you are Emo? Because then you just found a way to make a Warblade commit suicide via Dominate without actually trying to: IHS himself to death.

What the hell is an emo doing adventuring?

Emo Adventurer: God, I hate my life. I wish I could just die.

Vampire: Happy to oblige you.

[elliott20]

does anybody else find the concept of an Emo learning IRON HEART surge immensely ironic?