SWSE: Man those Jedi Own Level 1!

[Zim]

I'm playing in a SWSE campaign (10 years after Ep. III) and our group started off as a bunch of refugees trying to escape Coruscant via a less-than-savoury spaceport when we were jumped by 10 stormtroopers and an officer!

My character (custom small droid scout inspired by GIR/SIRR from Invader Zim) immediately declared "We're Doomed! Yaaay!", but I was wrong!

The Ithorian Jedi 1 in our group (one of two padawan in the party) used Force Thrust on a Stormtrooper fire team (4 troopers and a heavy weapons guy) and knocked all but one out of action in 1 standard action! The then Force Gripped last trooper in action and we made our escape.

Now my character is no slouch in a firefight (crazy high dex and autofire blaster rifle = dakka dakka!), but it just seemed like the Jedi in the party were unbalanced compared to the other characters. Is this anyone else's experience? Was more playtesting required before the book went to print?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Play a Yuzan Vong (sp) soldier with a repeating rifle. Sure it makes no sense, but at level 1 you'll bend Jedi over your knee without breaking a sweat.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Yes, Jedi can manage to pound out massive damage. As a GM, I've noticed this with a good deal of annoyance. This is especially noticeable in the lower levels where force slam and lightning completely own the field. They do have a major downside though... wait... do they?... *checks rulebook*... okay, maybe not.

Although not as obscenely broken as in Revised Edition, Jedi are still probably the most powerful character class. Not only do they get access to force powers more readily than the other classes (who have to burn a feat to pick up force sensitivity before they can get force training), but they also have soldier BaB, good talents, AND light sabers. Also, if the Jedi player decides that they don't like the Jedi talents, they can just take the broken-ridiculous force talents (like DR 10).

The 10th level Jedi in the group I run for singlehandedly took down 20+ stormtroopers and a couple of officers.

As a GM or Jedi-Fighting PC, the best thing you can probably do is get to a spot the Jedi can't see you and snipe the crap out of them.

[Swordguy]

Star Wars, any version, needs to be run in the following manner.

Either EVERYONE is a Jedi, or NOBODY is.

It's as true for the WEG version as it is for Saga. Jedi aren't supposed to be balanced - they're supposed to be better than everybody else. They're freaking JEDI.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Yeah, but part of the idea of Saga Edition was to move the rest of the classes up to the Jedi level. I think they made some major steps with allowing anyone to use force powers, but still, it tilts towards the jedi.

[drawingfreak]

I think a good GM should be able to handle the problems story wise.

However, having no experience with Jedi in the Saga edition, I can't give an honest opinion.

[Zincorium]

The problem I have with Jedi being extraordinarily powerful class-wise is that brand-new jedi aren't powerful in canon.

Seriously.
Obi-Wan? War veteran. Has killed entire planets worth of droids.
Anakin/Vader? Chosen of the force. Kills a command ship before hitting puberty.
Yoda? Er, No?

The only truly beginning jedi ever seen in the films are the students at the academy and Luke prior to going to Degobah.

And does anyone think that a single person on the millenium falcon couldn't have taken Luke out like the nerf-herder he was?

High level Jedi should be beyond awesome. Low-level Jedi should still be learning how to use their abilities.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

The problem I have with Jedi being extraordinarily powerful class-wise is that brand-new jedi aren't powerful in canon.

Seriously.
Obi-Wan? War veteran. Has killed entire planets worth of droids.
Anakin/Vader? Chosen of the force. Kills a command ship before hitting puberty.
Yoda? Er, No?

The only truly beginning jedi ever seen in the films are the students at the academy and Luke prior to going to Degobah.

And does anyone think that a single person on the millenium falcon couldn't have taken Luke out like the nerf-herder he was?

High level Jedi should be beyond awesome. Low-level Jedi should still be learning how to use their abilities.

IE: A wizard.

[Jack Zander]

Lower levels Jedi dominate everything. The problem isn't with Jedi, it's with Force Powers. Eventually physical attacks get on par with the Force Powers, but not until the later levels.

This is because many force powers have a set damage to them, instead of scaling damage. Also, it's really easy to get your skill checks super high early with skill focus. Attacks don't match skill checks until much later (level 15+).

[Zincorium]

IE: A wizard.

Yes. Well, wizard in first or second edition anyway. There is nigh unlimited power available to you, but it's not gonna be easy getting there.

[SilverSheriff]

The Jedi aren't over powered, a Scoundral in my group was stacking up as many kills as my jedi.

He was multi-shoting with his carbine through a doorway keeping enemies away while I was taking on individual targets defending the other side of the hallway.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Pants, that was a situational event. Mechanics dictate that the Jebi do a lot of ass kicking, and name taking, all down the line. For the sake of fun for the group, we had are most inept players be the jedi, while the rest of us were mooks and droids.

Zin: That farmboy Luke's d4 is easy to scoff at now, but when you are making capitol ships cry foul in later levels, you find that it has been a worthy course to follow in the end.

[SilverSheriff]

Pants, that was a situational event. Mechanics dictate that the Jedi do a lot of ass kicking, and name taking, all down the line. For the sake of fun for the group, we had are most inept players be the Jedi, while the rest of us were mooks and droids.

non-sense, the only downside to playing a non-Jedi is that you need your weapons to do what a Jedi can and a Jedi would not rip a Starship from the sky in a non-Yuuzhan Vong era because they don't have that kind of disregard for life.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Even armed, a Jedi will show you what for.

[SilverSheriff]

Even armed, a Jedi will show you what for.

Sorry, I edit my last post while you were posting:

non-sense, the only downside to playing a non-Jedi is that you need your weapons to do what a Jedi can and a Jedi would not rip a Starship from the sky in a non-Yuuzhan Vong era because they don't have that kind of disregard for life.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I didn't thinkg that a Yuvy counted as life to Jedi. Lord knows they are reviled enough by most.

[TheOOB]

Jedi are fairly nasty customers in Saga edition, they are the only class that gets easy force power access (the other classes need to spend a good deal of feats to get up to what a jedi can get easily.) and the lightsaber defense techniques make them very difficult to kill, though that isn't that huge of a deal since 90% of star wars combat is ranged, so the melee character really is at a disadvantage anyways.

Really though, it's force powers that are overpowering. Force powers are nasty, especially if you have skill focus (use the force), you just get more bang for your buck then any other feat or talent. They are powerful enough where you either need to a) severaly limit the amount of force powers (and which powers) your force users can take, as well as give your non force users extra powerful eq or b) make it so no one or everyone is a force user.

[Zim]

I think it would have been better if they made force powers scalable by level. That way, the Jedi stays on an even keel with the other characters. We actually have 3 Jedi in my group (good thing one couldn't make it or the battle would have lasted 2 rounds ), so it should be interesting to see if the other characters are going to get overshadowed or not. We hit level 2 in one session, so the gap will close slowly.

The other party members are:
Human Noble 2 -medic and diplomat, inspiring presence, surgical expertise
Small Class 4 Scout1/Scoundrel 1- stealthy spy bot, evasion, dastardly shot, skill focus stealth
Human Scoundrel 2 -pilot, don't know talents/feats

[Mushroom Ninja]

I think it would have been better if they made force powers scalable by level. That way, the Jedi stays on an even keel with the other characters.

Amen Brother!

If somebody can do 8d6 + condition track damage at first level (force lightning), you know somethings wrong!

[Hzurr]

I think it would have been better if they made force powers scalable by level.

Maybe they could re-implement it where you learn a few weak force powers at level 1, and then at every new level, you got slightly stronger and stronger powers, and the lower level powers you got would also level up slightly to keep them somewhat relevant, but high-level powers would make you awesome and ungodly. [/tongue-in-cheek]

[Triaxx]

A Jedi would not rip a Starship from the sky in a non-Yuuzhan Vong era because they don't have that kind of disregard for life.

True, but they did attack an orbiting fleet during Admiral Daala's failed attack on Yavin 4.

Playing with a mixed group is more fun if you implement fatigue rules. You can force push, but you can't do it again for 1d4 rounds.

[bugsysservant]

True, but they did attack an orbiting fleet during Admiral Daala's failed attack on Yavin 4.

IIRC, those hadn't fully learned the ways of the jedi yet, as they were just apprentices.

[The Gilded Duke]

I'll go with a good Wookie soldier with acrobatic strike and greater rage myself.
Or anyone with heavy weapon proficiency in a vehicle.

[Talya]

One word allows a few level 1 non-heroics to neutralize jedi:

Grenades.

[bugsysservant]

One word allows a few level 1 non-heroics to neutralize jedi:

Grenades.

I always found six to work better: "I am holding a thermal detonator"

[SmartAlec]

How did a level 1 character take out 4 enemies with a power that only affects a single target? Were they all standing behind each other or something?

I think it would have been better if they made force powers scalable by level.

They did, in a way - the effects of most Force powers are tied to the Use the Force skill check DC. Something like Force Thrust has a 'low power' DC 15 version, a DC 20 version, a DC 25, DC 30, DC 35 'high power' version...

[Beleriphon]

Amen Brother!

If somebody can do 8d6 + condition track damage at first level (force lightning), you know somethings wrong!

It also increases your Dark Side score. So a few of those bad boys, combined with other instances of using the Dark Side and you have a character that is well on his way to NPC status.

[Zim]

[QUOTE=SmartAlec;4156406]How did a level 1 character take out 4 enemies with a power that only affects a single target? Were they all standing behind each other or something?
QUOTE]

Sorry, it was Force Slam and he spent a force point. Just a droid, afterall.

[Starbuck_II]

It also increases your Dark Side score. So a few of those bad boys, combined with other instances of using the Dark Side and you have a character that is well on his way to NPC status.

Balancing of Force Lightning seems to be Rebuke: Dark Siders affected only. Also can't use Vital Transfer which rocks.

[Sholos]

Yeah, Jedi are kinda broken at level 1. I will point out, though, that they pretty much suck at social skills (unless they take Force Persuade) and have next-to-no money. For that matter, they have very few skills they can train in. So, in combat they're probably the best, but in other areas they're weaker.