Building a better monk with psywar?

[kamikasei]

Please note that this is not intended as a discussion of the merits or failings of the monk class.

I'm looking to put together a psychic warrior, and have a certain idea for the personality of the character. Much of the character concept shares fluff with the monk archetype, but I definitely want a psychic warrior. What I'm wondering is how effectively a psywar can be built to resemble a monk in the relevant ways - those being an unarmed martial artist who is big on philosophizing and thinking about the meaning of combat and so on.

I would like the character to be unarmed or nearly unarmed (e.g., fighting with enchanted gauntlets would be quite acceptable). If this is unfeasible that's okay, and I would appreciate recommendations on weapons etc. that would suit a fighting style which prioritizes the character's own self-mastery. Especially important is the choice of powers as I have zero psionics experience.

This is for a Red Hand of Doom campaign, starting at level 6 with normal wealth, using "Core/SRD" which for now I'm assuming includes everything on the SRD. Race is human for preference but could stretch to any zero-LA race.

So, do monks in near-core have the lock on unarmed combat?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Seems like a nice idea. I'd either take Ring the Golden Bell or homebrew a power to get ranged melee attacks and you'd be set. A psywar can pretty much do what a monk does better.

I'd still get Ego whip for backup, though.

[SamTheCleric]

Well, I think it's a great idea... and I think your monk-ish psywar would have very interesting conversations with my dwarven fighter on the philosophy of fighting..


Well... as much philosophy as a dwarven fighter has... you know... "Hit it till it stops moving!"

[Durendal]

If you want a real psionic monk feel take 3 levels of monk, 3 levels of psychic warrior, and then the prestige class psionic fist from the SRD. Pump Dex and Wisdom, pick up some damage boosting psionic attacks and you'll be set. Don't forget Psionic Lion Charge, full attack on a charge with flurry of blows.

[leperkhaun]

psy warriors make great unarmed combatents. They get a claws of the beat spell that makes their hands claws....they get a spell where they get heal back everytime they attack with claws.

Google the "King of Smack." There are a couple different builds, but alot of them use psy warrior.

That build is extreme and shouldnt be used in a game....however you can use parts of it to help optimize and it will give you things to consider when building your character.

Also the rest of thier power selection gives them many options that monks just dont have.

[AmberVael]

If you get Ego Whip, you should use it by quoting Chinese proverbs that insult them.

Anywho.
There is a feat in Tome of Battle (Superior Unarmed Strike) that will help you out with your unarmed damage if you want to do that. Adding in gauntlets will allow you to change it to lethal damage and more easily enchant your attacks.

As for powers... ones to look at are listed below.

1st level:
Vigor (Amazing for HP)
Inertial Armor (Lots of Armor)
Expansion
Precognition (Choose one- probably offensive)
Stomp (knocking everyone over is very handy, and it can deal a bit of damage)
2nd level:
Animal Affinity (amazing power)
Hustle (free move action. You actually CAN get full attacks if you use this)
Concealing Amorpha (blur. Meh)
Dissolving Weapon (it isn't great until you realize that it has an indefinite charge)
3rd level
Empathic Transfer, Hostile (heals you, hurts them. What's not to love?)
Concealing Amorpha, Greater
Evade Burst (Evasion!)
Dimension Slide (minorly handy)
4th level
Dimension Door, Psionic
Energy Adaptation
Truevenom Weapon
Weapon of Energy
Steadfast Perception
Freed of Movement, Psionic
5th level
Oak Body
Psychofeedback
Adapt Body
6th level
Personal Mind Blank
Form of Doom (maybe?)

[Azerian Kelimon]

Wha? No Prevenom weapon? That thing is SRSLY! useful!

[AmberVael]

There are just too many other powers that scale better and are generally better at first level for me to agree with using Prevenom. It may be constitution damage, but it isn't enough constitution damage to truly matter (IMO).
Maybe if you focus on it it would be useful but otherwise...

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually, it depends on the foes you face. Against animals and the like, you have no excuse not to use it, because the gross number of HD means a LOT of HP shaved off. Against everything else, there's truevenom. But prevenom is a nice choice even for low HD foes for the little extra oomph, and specially if you kindly prevenom everyone's weapons, making the loss rather massive.

[lord_khaine]

those 2 classes is a good mix, i would recomend monk1/psywar5, and then try to talk your gm into allowing either superior unarmed strike, or the feat from the eberon book secrets of sarlona, that allows you to counts level in a psychic class for monk levels to determine your unarmed damage.

[AmberVael]

Actually, it depends on the foes you face. Against animals and the like, you have no excuse not to use it, because the gross number of HD means a LOT of HP shaved off. Against everything else, there's truevenom. But prevenom is a nice choice even for low HD foes for the little extra oomph, and specially if you kindly prevenom everyone's weapons, making the loss rather massive.

This is exactly why I disagree with it. It's a specialization power, and it requires a lot of use to pay off. You don't get many powers- you'll be better off using something to protect yourself or control the battlefield (like Stomp).
As for using it on everyone- it's a great plan, but it only works until discharged, and requires a point for each weapon. You're a psi-warrior, you don't HAVE those kind of power points. You might be able to pull it off once per day, but then you're just acting like a giant mana battery, which you aren't.
It is best to go with long lasting self buffs.

[Azerian Kelimon]

It's ONE point. Per character. With the cleric and skillmonkey, that's 6 CON shaved off, or three HP per hit die. Very good, indeed. And psionic prodigy pretty much takes care of any PP needs.

Or you'll tell me 3 PP in advance is costly at remotely high levels, like 6?

[AmberVael]

It's ONE point. Per character. With the cleric and skillmonkey, that's 6 CON shaved off, or three HP per hit die. Very good, indeed. And psionic prodigy pretty much takes care of any PP needs.

Or you'll tell me 3 PP in advance is costly at remotely high levels, like 6?

Considering your base PP at level 6 is 11? Yeah, I would. As a psychic warrior you will have to focus on a number of different ability scores, so it is doubtful you'll have a huge bonus of PP from your Wisdom score.
That's going to be quite a bit of your daily resources- and 6 con IF they fail their fort saves. I might add that the creatures and people Prevenom will work best against will have a relatively high fort save...

[lord_khaine]

ill throw my vote in behind get some long-term buffs first, but do also try and fit Hustle in, it opens up for a lot of options in combat.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Not really. the squishy wizard is going down if a few prevenoms hit.

And as for base PP? That's why I mentioned psionic prodigy. Extra PP as if you were 2 WIS points higher and +1 to DC? Sold!

[AmberVael]

Even with more power points, I stand by long term buffs over Prevenom. It can be good, but most of the other level 1 powers can be better.

[Azerian Kelimon]

The point is, Prevenom is a very useful power. You just need to know how to use it.

Nobody's going to deny Expansion is Teh pwnz0rz, though.

[kamikasei]

Looking at the powers and feats available, I'm having doubts about the unarmed approach. I'm considering a different tack on the idea - a battlefield controller/reactive fighter, embodying the "I am so very one with the universe that attacking me is like hitting yourself" idea. I know there are a bunch of options for this outside core (Rolibar's Gambit, Karmic Strike etc.) but what about within core? A halberd-wielder (flavoured as a spear) with Stand Still seems like a good start, but does it go anywhere useful? Are there powers that enhance this style?

So far the must-have powers look like Vigor, Expansion, Hustle, and Animal Affinity. Any powers or feats that do something nasty on attacks of opportunity, or penalize opponents for hitting me, would also fit...

[AmberVael]

There is a power that gives you extra attacks of opportunity. Lemme see if I can find it...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prowess.htm
And of course, Combat Reflexes would be handy for such a character.

there's also one that damages opponents for hitting you.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/po...icFeedback.htm
There's another that is a psion/wilder power, but if you got Expanded Knowledge you could take it later on.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/po...ergyRetort.htm

Edit: With that sort of theme in mind, I think Detect hostile Intent, Ubiquitous Vision, and Adapt Body would also be good flavor choices. Steadfast Perception too.

[Zincorium]

Um, just as a quick note, halberds do not have reach. Apparently you're only allowed to hit people with the axe blade, and not the pointy bit on top. Ranseurs or glaives are more applicable to battlefield control (combined, of course, with a good suit of spiked armor).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Make sure to take, as a 2nd level power, Psionic Lion's Pounce, so you can make a full attack on a charge. This lets you take full advantage of both your movement and your full number of attacks.

Go straight PsiWar then fold it over into Slayer for higher BAB and immunity to mind-affecting abilities. Then proceed to rawk the world.

Two levels of Pyrokeneticist gets you Hands Afire for +2d6 fire damage on every punch. It might be worth it. Three levels nets you Bolt of Fire for those pesky ranged fellahs.

[GammaPaladin]

I think you shouldn't give up on your unarmed idea. A monk/psywar/fist of zuoken (Psionic Fist, by the SRD name), is actually quite good.

Superior Unarmed Strike helps, and Improved Natural Attack is even better (Although I don't know if it's in the SRD).

The PsyWar has soooo many touch powers and powers that you can use to make your attacks even nastier, it works out quite well.

(And before someone inevitably argues that you can't use Improved Natural Attack with unarmed strikes, the official FAQ says monks can take Improved Natural Attack and apply it to their unarmed strikes, so you've been overruled).

[Cuddly]

Actually, it depends on the foes you face. Against animals and the like, you have no excuse not to use it, because the gross number of HD means a LOT of HP shaved off. Against everything else, there's truevenom. But prevenom is a nice choice even for low HD foes for the little extra oomph, and specially if you kindly prevenom everyone's weapons, making the loss rather massive.

Yeah, against things with disproportionately high fortitude saves, it works GREAT.

/sarcasm

[edit]
Unless you're running 50 point buy or something.

[Nebo_]

I just did a quick scan of the thread and it doesn't look like anyone's mentioned Talashtora. It's a feat from Secrets of Sarlona that lets you stack Monk class abilities with a chosen psionic class. Monk 2/Psychic Warrior gets ML 18 and 20th level unarmed damage, flurry progression and other things that escape me at the moment. The only downside is +14 BAB.

[Draz74]

If you don't mind re-flavoring Claws of the Beast to be "unarmed" attacks, a PsyWarrior works great as an unarmed combatant. Claws of the Beast, Bite of the Wolf (headbutt?), Improved Natural Attack (Claws), Combat Reflexes, the Expansion power, the Hustle or Psionic Lion's Charge power, and the Prowess power, and you'll be doing some very nice flurries of high-damage natural attacks. Like, attacks that would make the Monk wet himself with jealousy.

Prevenom is indeed an excellent power, but not at low levels (contrary to what you'd expect). At high levels, even a Psychic Warrior has enough PP to spam Prevenom reasonably often. Don't bother augmenting it. The amazing thing about Prevenom is that its Save DC is based on your manifester level, not the amount that you augment it (unlike most powers)! That means your opponents will have a pretty reasonable chance of failing the save, and getting hit with a somewhat-meaningful 2 CON damage on top of the excellent damage your claws are already doing. And even if they pass the save, meh, you only spent 1 PP on the effect anyway. A lot cheaper than most psionic save-or-sucks.

Something to remember about Psychic Warriors, with Core-only, and in relation to the Prevenom debate, is that they really don't get that many high-level powers that are all that awesome or necessary. So, at higher levels, you're likely to pick off one cool highest-level power each time you get a new level, and otherwise keep picking strong low-level buffs.

Simple example build outline:
Human; High DEX and WIS (and CON if possible)
Level 1: Overchannel, Talented, Weapon Finesse; Claws of the Beast
Level 2: Combat Reflexes; Inertial Armor (reflavored: Monk's WIS to AC)
Level 3: Improved Natural Attack (claws); Expansion
Level 4: Hustle
Level 5: Speed of Thought; Metaphysical Claw
Level 6: Multiattack; Bite of the Wolf
Level 7: Claws of the Vampire
Level 8: Up the Walls; Dimension Slide
Level 9: Extend Power; Defensive Precognition
Level 10: Energy Adaptation
Level 11: Psionic Meditation; Prowess
Level 12: Quicken Power; Psionic Lion's Charge
Level 13: Adapt Body
Level 14: Expanded Knowledge; Psionic Fly, Body Purification
Level 15: Expanded Knowledge; Schism, Prevenom
Level 16: Dispelling Buffer
Level 17: Robilar's Gambit; Personal Mind Blank
Level 18: Expanded Knowledge; Metamorphosis, Detect Hostile Intent
Level 19: Psionic Freedom of Movement
Level 20: Metamorphic Transfer; Form of Doom

This is highly customizable, especially the order you pick up a lot of those powers. But it's an easy example of a mostly-core Psychic Warrior who will make a much better "monk" than the Monk. And fight much better than the Core Fighter or Core Barbarian. Note that, at high levels, optimization says you should get +1 Padded Armor with all kinds of enhancements on it (e.g. Heavy Fortification), even though flavor disagrees with this idea.

[Helgraf]

Please note that this is not intended as a discussion of the merits or failings of the monk class.

I'm looking to put together a psychic warrior, and have a certain idea for the personality of the character. Much of the character concept shares fluff with the monk archetype, but I definitely want a psychic warrior. What I'm wondering is how effectively a psywar can be built to resemble a monk in the relevant ways - those being an unarmed martial artist who is big on philosophizing and thinking about the meaning of combat and so on.

I would like the character to be unarmed or nearly unarmed (e.g., fighting with enchanted gauntlets would be quite acceptable). If this is unfeasible that's okay, and I would appreciate recommendations on weapons etc. that would suit a fighting style which prioritizes the character's own self-mastery. Especially important is the choice of powers as I have zero psionics experience.

This is for a Red Hand of Doom campaign, starting at level 6 with normal wealth, using "Core/SRD" which for now I'm assuming includes everything on the SRD. Race is human for preference but could stretch to any zero-LA race.

So, do monks in near-core have the lock on unarmed combat?

Nope. For unarmed combat, true killer style, use a fighter with carefully chosen bonus feats. Sure his base damage is only 1d3+Str ... but with all those feats, and no suffering from MAD, and no silly armor restrictions, he can tank up on armor for protection, drive his Str & Con through the roof, and use his superior HD and BAB to hold the line longer while pummelling the heck out of his unfortunate opponents.

Make a Half-Orc fighter. Str 18 or 20. High Con. Dex to taste, but optional. Obviously if you're using point buy, will need to know what level to give more exact spends. Recommend buying your Int up to 12 or 14 since race penalty will kick it down 2 points. WIth 14=12, you get 3 SP per level; with 12=10 you get 2.

Cheese Version 1:
Skills: Keep Jump maximized. Int 10, also Climb or Swim. Int 12, Tumble cc
Feat Progression: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Cleave, Flying Kick , Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper (At Levels 1, F1, F2, 3, F4, 6, F6 respectively). Wear the best compromise of ACP and Armor bonus you can. You'll want that AC later. Feel free to use a shield.
Charge into combat with a jump. Assign 5 or 6 points of Power Attack.
Deal 1d3+Str+2xPA (Leap Attack) +1d12 (Flying Kick). The penalty from Power Attack applies to your AC instead of your to hit.
So ... with Str 20, +13 to hit (+6 BAB, +5 Str, +2 charge), for 1d3+1d12+12+5 damage ... or on average 23.5 damage. Sure, your AC is 6 points worse...
Continuing Progression:


Cheese Version 2:
Skills: Unchanged
Feat Progression : IUS, PA, Cleave, Flying Kick, Weapon Focus (unarmed), Weapon Spec (unarmed), Brutal Strike
Str 20 +14 to hit (+6 BAB, +5 Str, +2 charge, +1 WF) for 1d3+1d12+2 base. You can add up to 6 points to damage at a loss to accuracy, but your later feats (see below) will help mitigate this loss with further bonuses to hit - also, they'll need to make a Fort DC 10+extra damage from power attack or be sickened; not a huge deal, but if it makes it less likely they'll hit you on their action ... and you can use it once per round, so essentially it's a free Save or suck every time you power attack.

- This build is the beginning of a build that leads to Melee Weapon Mastery, Crushing Strike, and Weapon Supremacy (unarmed). It will need to pick up the admittedly mediocre GWF (unarmed) & GWS (unarmed), but WSup (unarmed) is well worth a little cheese with a class with so many feat resources to dedicate. And when you have feat slots to play with and don't yet meet prereqs for some of these feats, you can consider a few different options. Maybe Stunning Fist for the loopy, and Fists of Iron to convert that into an extra 1d6 of damage for when the target is immune to stunning. Or combine the builds and pick up IBR, Shock Trooper and Leap Attack. Maybe take a level dip into Barbarian for the fast movement and the rage. Or if you're human, take a 1 or 2 level dip into Psychic Warrior and consider taking Psionic Fist and either Greater Psionic Fist or Deep Impact (or whatever they call the 'expend psi focus for touch unarmed attack' feat).

In short though, the fighter has so many ways to enhance his unarmed damage (and so many more feats to take advantage of them), that he very very quickly outstrips the poor MAD-dependant Monk as the unarmed combat badass.

[Zincorium]

Um, Helgraf, may I point out the 'I definitely want to play a psychic warrior' that was in the OP?

And that psychic warriors get nearly as many bonus feats as fighters do? Along with very powerful psionic abilities?

[GammaPaladin]

Also, heavy armor isn't all it's cracked up to be. A monk who pumps dex and wis has a better AC than any platemail wearing fighter could ever have at high level.

[Zincorium]

Also, heavy armor isn't all it's cracked up to be. A monk who pumps dex and wis has a better AC than any platemail wearing fighter could ever have at high level.

Excluding items both classes would have:

Fighter: 13 armor (mithril full plate +5) + 7 shield (animated heavy shield +5) + 3 dex = 23

Monk: 9 armor (bracers of ac 9) + 4 class + wis + dex.

A monk can have better AC at level 20 as long as the combined modifier for dexterity and wisdom is higher than +10. Certainly not out of the question, but it does take some investment the fighter doesn't need to make.

However, with inertial armor, form of doom, etc, a psychic warrior blows those two completely out of the water, especially with a dip into monk or swordsage.

[tyckspoon]

Monk: 9 armor (bracers of ac 9) + 4 class + wis + dex.

The bracers in the book only go up to +8, although you could get up to +10 (for a full 100,000 gp- the fighter can get his armor and shield with money to spare for that) before they go Epic.