Frenzied Berserker

[Epinephrine]

I saw someone mention these in a post, saying that they end up killing their party. I'm in a group in which the barbarian plans to go Frenzied berserker, and I guess I'm looking for advice on how to stop/deal with him if he goes wacko. I'm getting the sense that this really isn't a very party-friendly profession choice, and may try to talk him out of it, but I know he wants the power it offers.

Non-lethal would be nice, but frankly I'll kill him him before I let him hurt people (me, specifically). Players tend to object if you *try* to kill them, but since he's trying to kill us I don't mind much. It's not like I'm good, either, I'm neutral. I don't have any objection to downing a rabid animal.

I'm playing a shapeshift variant Druid; it looks like he can pick up this class at 7th level or so? I'll have to ask him when he can get it, but assuming one has access to at most 4th level or so druid spells, what's the most effective back-pocket method of dealing with him? I was thinking (off the top of my head) of Blinding Spittle, and just saving it in case he goes nuts, since blinding him is a pretty good start, and I don't think he's allowed to stop to wash his eyes out. I'd rather set aside low-level spells for it if possible, since I don't really want to sacrifice my big guns just to keep a guy in line.

Since our party has 3 back/midliners (missile fire and a caster) I'm likely the nearest target when the last enemy drops, since I could be on the front lines in animal form. My AC is ok, but he's vicious already, and he only rages so far. I am somewhat concerned about how much damage he could do if he hits me. I can of course simply get away, as I'm faster than he is in animal form and can fly, and I ignore the woodland terrain (we so far are exclusively in the outdoors), but I don't think I'd abandon the team to him. If I can position myself nearest, but out of charge range (or with difficult terrain making a charge impossible) I might be able to lead him around till he snaps out of it?

Suggest away (obviously my #1 option is convince him that he doesn't want to become a hindrance; I have been playing a judge-type protector of the woods, so it would be out of character to deal with him before he steps out of line, but if he proves to be a danger I'll off him if I have to.)

[Frosty]

Enchant the Fb's weapon with the Nonlethal enhancement, so it'll deal +1d6 (or was it 2d6) but the damage becomes non-lethal.

[Ascension]

Calm emotions. Don't know if it's on the Druid list, but your other casters should at least have access to it.

[Squidmaster]

Entangle could work, as could simply summoning weak creatures for him to kill (summon natures ally 1) A druid could do that since technically you aren't killing the animals, your just sending them back to where they came.

[Erebus]

a) kill him while he sleeps (what?! it is an option!!!)
b) A good idea is to let him think of taking Endurance+Steadfast Determination Feats thus busting his will save thus giving him a greater chance of ending the frenzy by himself (think its 20 will or 15+rounds spend in frenzy or smthng similar)
c)what the other guys said
d)NIGERO (in japanese meaning run for it! )

[Reinboom]

Illusion spells.
Super pump his will saves.
Rest of party having high hide/move silently / rings of invisibility, etc.
Battle Hymn + Pump his will saves.

[Nebo_]

A cleric dip with the Pride Domain. There's a build on the WotC boards called the Friendly Berserker that almost never fails the will save.

[lord_khaine]

you could explain to him that if he ever turns against the party because of frenzy, then you will leave him, and that he should avoid taking FB level unless he wants to reroll after the first time he fails his will save.

this actualy makes even more sense IC, sense i cant imagine anyone who would travel with someone so mad they might turn against their allies in battle.

[Kizara]

Calm Emoitions = Easy off switch. Somebody has to have it.

He could take Leadership and grab a cleric cohort if you don't have one in the party.

Alternately, do the PoF build with a good charisma for an easy high will save.

PoF 3/hex 3/fight 2/FB 10 etc.

[Ramos]

Levitate.
It is a ranged spell that makes a meeler totally useless.

[senrath]

Levitate.
It is a ranged spell that makes a meeler totally useless.

Levitate requires a willing target.

[ZeroNumerous]

Levitate requires a willing target.

I will try to kill the party to the best of my ability =/= I will not accept "buffs" from the party.

Since Sense Motive requires concentration and is impossible to perform during a rage, an untrained bluff check automatically succeeds and the barbarian willingly accepts the Levitate, thinking it's a buff.

[Epinephrine]

Thanks, the Calm Emotions will fit on our Cleric-type's bar nicely, and I suspect I can keep him busy for a round or two easily enough, as long as we show some sense and we try to let him drop the last target, so that we all hopefully have a round before he can attack us. I'm so glad he doesn't have woodland stride, I can just position myself across difficult terrain, but closer than the party is.

I somewhat agree that you'd have to be mad to travel with someone who is a real risk, but we've been adventuring together and been through a bunch. I'd say it's not in character to leave because of a choice on class since we can only judge him based on his actions, but the first time he turns on the party we can have a serious discussion about whether he's now a liability. "He always raged in combat, but it's worse now - he seems stronger, deadlier, but he can't tell friend from foe." Yeah, I think the best option is to try to talk him out of the option, but we're all friends too, and if he wants to try it we'll let him, and just have to deal with it in character.

[mostlyharmful]

get a wand of grease, the wiz stands at the back and since the fights over they don't have anything else to do. The barb can still voluntarily fall on his arse.

[lord_khaine]

I will try to kill the party to the best of my ability =/= I will not accept "buffs" from the party.

Since Sense Motive requires concentration and is impossible to perform during a rage, an untrained bluff check automatically succeeds and the barbarian willingly accepts the Levitate, thinking it's a buff.

but if he is trying to kill the party to the best of his ability then he wont belive its a buff, and actively resist whatevers cast on him.

that part about no use of sense motive is just silly, if it were true you would not even have to bother with the levitate spell, all you had to do is to tell him you were a illusion, and that the real person was disguised as that tree over there.

get a wand of grease, the wiz stands at the back and since the fights over they don't have anything else to do. The barb can still voluntarily fall on his arse.

no the barbarian can not fail his save on purpose, since he is trying to kill people at the best of his ability.
and all it takes is a failed save and a barbarian with a action before said wizard, to reduce the number of wizards in the world by 1.

[TK-Squared]

Frenzied Berskers cannot make Dex based skills. Grease will cause them to fall on their arse anyway.

[Darrin]

get a wand of grease, the wiz stands at the back and since the fights over they don't have anything else to do. The barb can still voluntarily fall on his arse.

Grease is usually the preferred method of shutting down a FB, because it requires a Balance check, which is Dex-based and the FB auto-fails.

Unfortunately, Druids don't get grease. You might want to consider the Flash Frost feat, however (PHB2). It creates a thin layer of ice requiring a Balance check, effectively turning any [cold] spell into grease. However, it increases the spell level by 1, and I don't see any low-level [cold] spells for druids with an area... You could combine it with Eschew Materials + Snowcasting, which would make Entangle pretty nasty, but that would take three feats.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

They have 2 casters in the back of the party. Have one of them drop the Grease.

[Lucyfur]

You really have to plan out a FB character if you want to play it successfully. The party has to be prepared for it.

Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (MiC) give a +4 insight bonus to Will saves.
Along with a Cloak of resistance and Steadfast Determination, you can reliably make that DC 20 Will save to end the Frenzy.

[lord_khaine]

They have 2 casters in the back of the party. Have one of them drop the Grease

so in other words one of the casters have to waste his time during battle waiting to cast grease, and the the druid cant get within melee range of him.

Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (MiC) give a +4 insight bonus to Will saves.
Along with a Cloak of resistance and Steadfast Determination, you can reliably make that DC 20 Will save to end the Frenzy.

the problem is then that when he actualy do fail his ave then its so much harder to stop him chopping the party down.

[Person_Man]

The main downside of the FB is not that you will kill your fellow party members. You can get around this with Steadfast Determination and a Merciful weapon. The downside is that it's nearly impossible to conserve your Frenzy uses for when you really need them. Every time you take any damage from any source, you must make a Will Save = 10 + cumulative damage taken since your last action. So you will almost never have a Frenzy use available for a BBEG fight, which is when you really need them.

Also, its pretty much required that you have a Cleric in your party with Reach Spell metamagic, so that he can stand back and heal or Calm Emotions you as needed. If someone in your party doesn't want to do this, I'd skip FB.

[ChaosDefender24]

Warblade levels --> Iron heart surge

[Collin152]

Cast Levitate before he Frenzies, but don't lift him.
At first.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No matter how big and bad your will save is, you'll always fail it on a natural one. So every FB has a one in twenty chance of going ape all over the party, at a minimum. And if it has focused on bringing up the Will save, it will be very hard to land a Calm Emotions or similar will-save-dependent spell. Honestly, your best bet would be something like Resilient Sphere, which takes advantage of the poor Reflex save, doesn't kill it, but doesn't let it kill the party.

However, I always tell people: Just Say No to FB. It just isn't worth the risk. It really doesn't give you all that much more, and setting up your party for a TPK when you do go crazy all over them is just not cool.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

No matter how big and bad your will save is, you'll always fail it on a natural one.

Unless you, you know, take Steadfast Determination. Which in addition to almost certainly raising your will save, also makes it so that you no longer fail on a one.

[Chronos]

It makes it so you don't fail fortitude saves on a natural 1. It doesn't do anything for a natural 1 on a Will save. At least, not if the version on dandello is correct.

[playswithfire]

It makes it so you don't fail fortitude saves on a natural 1. It doesn't do anything for a natural 1 on a Will save. At least, not if the version on dandello is correct.

That is indeed what players handbook ii says for that feat

[FlyMolo]

You all pitch in and buy a wand of calm emotions, or grease, or a dorje of mind lock.

A brain lock pearl for a last ditch attempt is always good.

[Talic]

Level 1 spell. Obscuring mist. Add Level 2 spell, silence. If he doesn't see or hear any enemies, he doesn't have to do anything. It takes a bit of work, and the other player has to choose to do that, but it gives him an excuse to stand there, pissed off, until the rage expires.

[Frosty]

The FB should take Indomitable Soul. He gets to roll TWICE and take the better result. Might not work by RAW, but I think a DM would allow it.