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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    So I've been thinking... the Duskblade and the Swiftblade are pretty similar in ideas in which you use spells and such to augment melee ability. This got me thinking to the enhanced full attack and additional options obtained through the Swiftblade. What if I combined them? I'm not sure if this is actually a good idea, but I was going to put everything into Intelligence and Dexterity and try to create a strong but dodgy individual...

    Several questions pertain to this. To begin with, "Is this a good combination?" Another question I have would be... "Can I take the Arcane Disciple Feat to pick up the Celerity Domain and gain Haste onto my spell list in order to qualify for the Swiftblade class?"

    Tell me what you guys think, since I'm considering playing it.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    That would be a TERRIBLE IDEA. Why? Almost all the bonuses (and ALL the best ones) rely on your casting haste which Arcane Disciple would let you cast ONE (1) time per day.
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Eclectic learning or whatever was the name lets you add it to your list of spells.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Eclectic learning is a Warmage class feature, though. Duskblades don't get it. I don't believe it's a feat, either.

    You could do it, but it doesn't strike me as a good combination; you lose base attack bonus and caster levels, and you don't get anything in return unless you can cast Haste on yourself, which you can only do once per day.
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    I mentioned Eclectic learning, but I KNOW there's a feat out there. I saw it used with, I believe, a beguiler build, to get a nice spell. It's pretty much the Expanded Knowledge of spelcasting, and there surely is one out there.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    You should instead get an item that lets you cast haste on yourself (i.e. boots of speed or armor of speed). It's still not the best combo but at least it works better than arcane disciple.

    Or get your DM to houserule that the Extra Spell feat lets you add spells that aren't actually on your class list (which is false by RAW, but not unreasonable for a partial caster).
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    If you can get the Extra Spell houserule, that's the way to go, but you won't qualify for the feat until level 13, which means that unless you can get a bonus feat you can't enter Swiftblade until level 16.

    I don't think boots of haste would qualify you; they give you the ability to benefit from a haste effect, not the ability to cast Haste.
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    That would be a TERRIBLE IDEA. Why? Almost all the bonuses (and ALL the best ones) rely on your casting haste which Arcane Disciple would let you cast ONE (1) time per day.
    I'm not a big fan of prebuffs in PbP at the moment, so it fits my playstyle. What I'm going for from the Swiftblade is the extra actions part of the class, in addition to the awesome bonuses to oneself.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    Eclectic learning is a Warmage class feature, though. Duskblades don't get it. I don't believe it's a feat, either.

    You could do it, but it doesn't strike me as a good combination; you lose base attack bonus and caster levels, and you don't get anything in return unless you can cast Haste on yourself, which you can only do once per day.
    Nope, they don't get it, and Duskblades don't have Haste on the spell list...

    Erm... you don't lose BAB. Duskblade and Swiftblade are both full BAB classes. Caster levels can be made up with Practiced Spellcaster and the like, and as I stated before, I'm not a big fan of buff spells.

    I'm really going for Swift Surge, Perpetual Options and Innervated Speed.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    If you don't like buff spells, taking a class that requires you to have one active at all times to get most of its class features is not really wise.

    Also, how do you plan to enter swiftblade? It requires you spend all your 3rd level slots on Haste for an entire level: good luck doing that with Arcane Disciple.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by FlWiPig View Post
    That would be a TERRIBLE IDEA. Why? Almost all the bonuses (and ALL the best ones) rely on your casting haste which Arcane Disciple would let you cast ONE (1) time per day.
    Incorrect. According to the feat: you may learn these spells as normal for your class. So you could learn it once you can cast the level of spell that the domain grants. The real problem is that the Celerity domain has Haste as a 4th-level spell, which isn't until Duskblade 13. And even then, its uses are very limited, given the few spell slots at higher levels.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Isomenes View Post
    Incorrect. According to the feat: you may learn these spells as normal for your class. So you could learn it once you can cast the level of spell that the domain grants. The real problem is that the Celerity domain has Haste as a 4th-level spell, which isn't until Duskblade 13. And even then, its uses are very limited, given the few spell slots at higher levels.
    Read Arcane Discipine again. You add them to your class spell list, but even after consuming spells known slots to learn them (which, again, you're required to do) you are still specifically only allowed to memorize or cast one of each level per day (you could technically get around this by wasting your higher-level spell slots... except that, as a duskblade, your spell progression stops too low for this to help.)
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2008-04-11 at 09:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Isomenes View Post
    Incorrect. According to the feat: you may learn these spells as normal for your class. So you could learn it once you can cast the level of spell that the domain grants. The real problem is that the Celerity domain has Haste as a 4th-level spell, which isn't until Duskblade 13. And even then, its uses are very limited, given the few spell slots at higher levels.
    I've got that part figured out, and the game I'm playing in is going to be quite high, so it'll be pretty useful at that point. Besides, how many times are you going to cast haste per encounter anyway?

    Besides, the "Spend All Spell Slots" is fluff. Not a big deal if I did that previously somewhere along the way.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    The real problem is that the Celerity domain has Haste as a 4th-level spell, which isn't until Duskblade 13.
    Which also makes it impossible to use it to enter Swiftblade, since you have to use your third-level slots on Haste to enter Swiftblade.
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Actually, he's right. The feat specifies that you may only prepare or cast a maximum of one spell domain spell of each level.

    Spell slots aren't such a big problem for a duskblade; after only a couple levels of having 4th-level spells, you've got a reliable five-or-six 4th-level spells per day. Which is why Extra Spell is probably the way to go, if you can persuade your DM; by the time you enter the class, you'll have plenty of spell slots to use Haste with. And by that time, you've already gotten the duskblade's full-attack arcane channeling, so there's not as much to lose by going into another class.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Which also makes it impossible to use it to enter Swiftblade, since you have to use your third-level slots on Haste to enter Swiftblade.
    You can get around this one.

    Retrain or something so you have no third-level spells, or lower your casting stat two 12 or below. Spend an entire level like this. Reverse what you did to get back your third-level spells, taking a level of swiftblade at the same time. You have now spent "all your 3rd level spells" during that level on haste (all zero of them).

    Since the Swiftblade's use-all-your-spell-slots requirements specifically only care about what you did last level while the other requirements will only care about how you are at the end, you can get away with it.

    You may have to spend an entire level Feebleminded, but it'll work...
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2008-04-11 at 09:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Read Arcane Discipine again. You add them to your class spell list, but even after consuming spells known slots to learn them (which, again, you're required to do) you are still specifically only allowed to memorize or cast one of each level per day (you could technically get around this by wasting your higher-level spell slots... except that, as a duskblade, your spell progression stops too low for this to help.)
    I disagree. The final paragraph essentially indicates that you receive a domain spell slot for each level spell you can cast. This does not preclude you from using it as a learned spell in your normal spell slots.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Isomenes View Post
    I disagree. The final paragraph essentially indicates that you receive a domain spell slot for each level spell you can cast. This does not preclude you from using it as a learned spell in your normal spell slots.
    But... it then specifically says you are limited to memorizing it once per day, or casting it once per day if you cast like a sorcerer. You can't just ignore that sentence because you don't like it.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Two levels in Wyrm Wizard nets you Spell Research, which lets you add any spell in the game to your spell list.
    Last edited by JaxGaret; 2008-04-12 at 01:08 AM.
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Which also makes it impossible to use it to enter Swiftblade, since you have to use your third-level slots on Haste to enter Swiftblade.
    Versatile Spellcaster feat?

    I'm aware that it's not really worth it, but I think it would work by RAW.
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Versatile Spellcaster feat?

    I think it would work by RAW.
    I think that would work by RAW too, since the Swiftblade states that you have to use all of your 3rd-level slots to cast Haste.
    Last edited by JaxGaret; 2008-04-12 at 04:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxGaret View Post
    I think that would work by RAW too, since the Swiftblade states that you have to use all of your 3rd-level slots to cast Haste.
    Hm... this is pure rules lawyering, but if you have zero third-level slots it would be pretty easy to spend all of them on Haste, no?
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Nope. You don't have anything to spend. You can't actually "spend all your spell slots" if you didn't have any to start with. You never actually spent anything. That's like saying a barbarian could meet that paticular prerequisite as he never had the spell slots either. Good try though.

    Really, the best way I've seen someone get into the class is to Wizard 5/ Fighter 1 (Comp. Mage variant)/ Swiftblade. You're short a bit on BAB, but you'll have access to much better spells. Besides, the class features actually even out your attack bonuses to something on par with a pure meleer. If you want, you can always take Battlecaster to improve upon what armor you can wear without arcane spell failure.
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkahn View Post
    Nope. You don't have anything to spend. You can't actually "spend all your spell slots" if you didn't have any to start with. You never actually spent anything. That's like saying a barbarian could meet that paticular prerequisite as he never had the spell slots either. Good try though.

    Really, the best way I've seen someone get into the class is to Wizard 5/ Fighter 1 (Comp. Mage variant)/ Swiftblade. You're short a bit on BAB, but you'll have access to much better spells. Besides, the class features actually even out your attack bonuses to something on par with a pure meleer. If you want, you can always take Battlecaster to improve upon what armor you can wear without arcane spell failure.
    Actually, yes you really can... technically... it says that you must use all your spell slots to exclusively CAST haste. I spend my single domain slot to cast haste, and I don't cast any other third level spells and I get around that.

    The idea is not to provide me with other multiclassing ideas. I know of the easiest way into Swiftblade. I always wonder why people provide "better" class combinations to a player when the point is not to power game, but to find something fun to play. I merely asked your opinions on whether this was feasible and worth playing. Some say it is, some say it isn't. I'll playtest it and report back with my findings.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    I've no idea if it would be legal, but I always thought a Factotum 11 / Swiftblade 9 would be neat. The Factotum's spell casting ability would allow him around 5 uses of Haste per day and, although I'm not sure if it would qualify, I would think that would be enough. You may not be able to hook up with the Swiftblade's cap stone (the time stop ability) but things work out perfectly to get cunning breach (ignore DR or SR at the cost of 4 inspiration points).

    As to the Duskblade? I considered it, but I just don't see a way of making it work well. I wish I could be of more help.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Neftren View Post
    The idea is not to provide me with other multiclassing ideas. I know of the easiest way into Swiftblade. I always wonder why people provide "better" class combinations to a player when the point is not to power game, but to find something fun to play. I merely asked your opinions on whether this was feasible and worth playing. Some say it is, some say it isn't. I'll playtest it and report back with my findings.
    If you don't use something like the Wyrm Wizard's Spell Research to get Haste as a spell known (I didn't see any other legal method for getting it as a true spell known proffered), what are you going to do, take Arcane Disciple and have the ability to cast Haste just 1/day?
    Last edited by JaxGaret; 2008-04-12 at 09:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Double post due to forum delays.
    Last edited by JaxGaret; 2008-04-12 at 08:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    The Factotum's spell casting ability would allow him around 5 uses of Haste per day
    Nope, the Factotum's Arcane Dilettante ability doesn't allow you to prepare the same spell more than once. So you'd have a maximum of one Haste a day.

    I always wonder why people provide "better" class combinations to a player when the point is not to power game, but to find something fun to play.
    Because some people find it fun to have more power? Because even if power isn't your primary goal, having too little power can hinder your fun? A character who gets most of his class abilities from casting a particular spell, and who can't cast that spell, probably isn't going to be very fun. So folks are suggesting similar things that you might also consider fun, but which would be easier to make work.
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    From overview I really like this idea, im currently playing a duskblade atm myself (low level) so this seemed like a nice interesting branch for me to go off in.

    The reasons however I wont, is because as has already been stated above, obtaining the spell which makes this prestige class work is not available for a duskblade by default and obtaining it seems to prove more hassle than its worth...

    And also because one of the coolest features this prestige has to offer, the Innervated Speed ability, that makes you fundementally stop time, cannot be used...

    "Innervated Speed (Ex): At 10th level, your mastery of the haste spell can bring the world around you to a standstill. Any time you prepare or spontaneously cast haste in a 6th level spell slot."

    ..duskblades can only cast up to 5th level spells... therefore thats a whole chunk of expected power you've just lost out on there alone, getting *that* as well as the actual spell... well thats going to be way too much effort for an effective build =(

    I personally think its just not worth the effort.
    Last edited by Reaper_Monkey; 2008-04-12 at 10:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper_Monkey View Post
    And also because one of the coolest features this prestige has to offer, the Innervated Speed ability, that makes you fundementally stop time, cannot be used...

    "Innervated Speed (Ex): At 10th level, your mastery of the haste spell can bring the world around you to a standstill. Any time you prepare or spontaneously cast haste in a 6th level spell slot."

    ..duskblades can only cast up to 5th level spells... therefore thats a whole chunk of expected power you've just lost out on there alone
    Perhaps you could use Versatile Spellcaster and burn two 5th level slots to cast Haste in a 6th level "slot".

    It would be a houserule, but maybe the DM would allow it.
    Last edited by JaxGaret; 2008-04-12 at 10:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Class Combination: Duskblade/Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxGaret View Post
    Perhaps you could use Versatile Spellcaster and burn two 5th level slots to cast Haste in a 6th level "slot".

    It would be a houserule, but maybe the DM would allow it.
    Very true... again however burning up more resources to get something that would be standard with a different build, and therefore lowering your assumed power for your level.

    Of cause, the DM could just say you get Haste for free, and that ability works with two 5th level spells (I'd assume they would not however let it work at any higher level slot). In which case a lot of the issues this build faces are lessened dramatically.

    The build would then consist of forever running in and out of battle like a headless chicken to get your extra movement damage (and, well, because you can) and never learning any more 3rd level spell slots other than haste, because you should never need to cast anything else from that slot once its effects start to boot more and more. Of cause this would mean you'd have to focus the rest of your Arcane Channeling touch spells into 2nd and 4th slots if you wanted to maintain the power yield of the Duskblade... but its more doable, not perfect, but good flavour and possible. If your DM lets you that is, by RAW it'll be a massive headache.
    Last edited by Reaper_Monkey; 2008-04-13 at 05:14 AM.

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