reserve feats?

[its_all_ogre]

i do not own complete mage but have this link http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...pl?Fiery_Burst,
and details of the various reserve feats. how do these work? do you actually get to throw around fire/acid bursts all day purely from keeping a spell uncast? sounds good.
i'm aware of blasting not being overpowerful etc etc really not interested in re-opening a discussion about that, thanks anyway!

[kamikasei]

In exchange for leaving a spell uncast, you get an ability roughly on par with a warlock invocation of the spell's level or lower. That, as I understand it, is the idea behind them.

[RTGoodman]

Yep, you basically get the ability all day long, or at least until you run out of spells of your descriptor of the appropriate level. For a caster, it seems like a good way to be able to do some damage (or do whatever neat trick you have) without needing to waste spell slots. I don't know what the general opinion is on their effectiveness, but they seem pretty good/strong to me. In my Savage Tide game, we have a Cleric of "Nature" (with Fire and I think Water domains) who loves the Fiery Burst one.

[Azerian Kelimon]

In two words, the teleportation and minor shapeshift ones are excellent, the rest are meh. Particularly the blaster ones, not because they suck, but because the two mostly unresisted elements, sonic and acid, don't get much love.

[senrath]

In exchange for leaving a spell uncast, you get an ability roughly on par with a warlock invocation of the spell's level or lower. That, as I understand it, is the idea behind them.

Yup. Which also makes reserve feats much better on spontaneous casters, who just have to know the proper spells. And not all reserve feats are blasty ones. The air based one, if I remember correctly, mimics Gust of Wind (or something like that).

[Sinfire Titan]

In exchange for leaving a spell uncast, you get an ability roughly on par with a warlock invocation of the spell's level or lower. That, as I understand it, is the idea behind them.

What/ Aside from Glaive, what Invocation is on par with Dimensional Jaunt?


Yes, you need to read the link in order to understand why I say this.

[Person_Man]

There's the Elemental one (I forget exactly what its called) that I like a lot. Having a small Elemental on call at all times is very handy. It can spring traps, open doors, create water, set fires, provide flanking or block enemies if you're too lazy to Summon something better, etc.

[senrath]

What/ Aside from Glaive, what Invocation is on par with Dimensional Jaunt?


Yes, you need to read the link in order to understand why I say this.

Ignoring Dimensional Jaunt, since that requires...what level casting again? Anyways, ignoring it, most of them are similar to Warlock Invocations, even if it's just the fact that they're reusable.

[its_all_ogre]

thanks for the clarification!

[The_Snark]

What/ Aside from Glaive, what Invocation is on par with Dimensional Jaunt?


Yes, you need to read the link in order to understand why I say this.

... Flee the Scene, which is exactly the same only better?

Anyway... I like reserve feats. They give casters either a bit of endurance (at lower levels when they actually have to worry about stuff like that) or just a neat trick. I'm fond of a couple of the damage-dealing ones (Fiery Burst and Storm Bolt are the ones I've used) and a few others, like Dimensional Jaunt and Face-Changer.

I wish I could be fond of Drowning Glance, because the idea is so neat, but it's not worth the cost of a feat, it's not worth a standard action, and it's probably not worth knowing a water spell, since most of those are pretty terrible. Oh, well.

[kamikasei]

What/ Aside from Glaive, what Invocation is on par with Dimensional Jaunt?

I'll defer to Snark's assessment of the balance issues, but my point was that "about equivalent to a warlock invocation, sacrificing a burst of power for the ability to stave off narcolepsy" was what they were aiming for, not that they'd necessarily achieved it with all the feats.

[its_all_ogre]

taking the retraining rules into account these feats are totally worth it at levels 1-4/5 depending on whether you're a wizard or a sorcerer. then retrain in another feat like say spell focus or something else that is not level dependant.

[Jack_Simth]

i do not own complete mage but have this link http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...pl?Fiery_Burst,
and details of the various reserve feats. how do these work? do you actually get to throw around fire/acid bursts all day purely from keeping a spell uncast? sounds good.
i'm aware of blasting not being overpowerful etc etc really not interested in re-opening a discussion about that, thanks anyway!

You can, but it's not as good as you think.

See, almost every reserve feat (most notable exception: Minor Shapeshift) is fixed or based on the level of the spell held in reserve - not your caster level. So at 6th level that Fiery Burst that you're holding a Fireball for does... 3d6 damage, while the Fireball does 3d6 damage. At 10th, holding that same Fireball in reserve, it's still just 3d6 - it doesn't scale at all unless you hold off more power for it.

[Dode]

What/ Aside from Glaive, what Invocation is on par with Dimensional Jaunt?


Yes, you need to read the link in order to understand why I say this.

Yeah, being able to deal 20d6 (provided of course that you're standing in the target's square since Pythagoras' isn't invited to the CO board's brilliance) to a single target a round at level 18, wooo

I mean, ToB classes have attacks that can deal a flat +100 damage at that point.


Also laughing at the guy who thought he managed to crack it at level 6 with a Swordsage using Shadow Jaunt, carefully ignoring the fact that Shadow Jaunt only works between shadows. The perfect build, so long as you never fight outdoors, or in a building with a ceiling or lighting fixtures.

[senrath]

Admittedly that's not the best use of Dimensional Jaunt. The ability to continually teleport even short distances is fun, though.

[TK-Squared]

Yeah, being able to deal 20d6 (provided of course that you're standing in the target's square since Pythagoras' isn't invited to the CO board's brilliance) to a single target a round at level 18, wooo

I mean, ToB classes have attacks that can deal a flat +100 damage at that point.


Also laughing at the guy who thought he managed to crack it at level 6 with a Swordsage using Shadow Jaunt, carefully ignoring the fact that Shadow Jaunt only works between shadows. The perfect build, so long as you never fight outdoors, or in a building with a ceiling or lighting fixtures.

Also, laughing at the guy who thought that Shadow Jaunt only works between shadows.

[Dode]

The ability to teleport a small distance whenever you want is always useful, as opposed to doing a small handful of damage like most of the reserve feats, which isn't very useful for a caster early on, and far less useful as he climbs up in levels. So despite my earlier post, I still think Dimensional Jaunt is one of the most useful of the feat series.

[Kurald Galain]

So despite my earlier post, I still think Dimensional Jaunt is one of the most useful of the feat series.

I agree.

Also, Summon Elemental is highly useful for scouting or trapfinding. Borne Aloft gives you a 24-hour undispellable flight, which is not too shabby either.

Dimensional Reach, which allows you to teleport items into your hand, is very funny and occasionally useful in dungeon traps, but really not worth a feat. I think for any of the others you're better off grabbing a metamagic feat (or taking a level in Warlock for the blast ability).

[senrath]

I agree.

Also, Summon Elemental is highly useful for scouting or trapfinding. Borne Aloft gives you a 24-hour undispellable flight, which is not too shabby either.

Dimensional Reach, which allows you to teleport items into your hand, is very funny and occasionally useful in dungeon traps, but really not worth a feat. I think for any of the others you're better off grabbing a metamagic feat (or taking a level in Warlock for the blast ability).

Borne Aloft doesn't do that, sadly.

You must begin and end this flight solidly supported, or you fall.

[Fixer]

You can, but it's not as good as you think.

See, almost every reserve feat (most notable exception: Minor Shapeshift) is fixed or based on the level of the spell held in reserve - not your caster level. So at 6th level that Fiery Burst that you're holding a Fireball for does... 3d6 damage, while the Fireball does 3d6 damage. At 10th, holding that same Fireball in reserve, it's still just 3d6 - it doesn't scale at all unless you hold off more power for it.

That also means that at 17th level a wizard can memorize a meteor swarm and have a 9d6 fiery burst at will, no AoO, and no spell resistance (which are two of the greatest benefits of reserve feats, no AoO and no spell resistance).

Also, you can use Heighten Spell to memorize a lower level spell into a higher level slot to power a reserve feat as you go up in levels. A fireball memorized in a 4th level slot can power a Fiery Burst to 4d6 damage.

I had a conjurer specialist (evocation banned) who kept the Orb of Fire spell memorized for his Fiery Burst and kept heightening it to keep its level up as high as possible for damage purposes. Not having Fireball, it was his primary attack.

Yup. Which also makes reserve feats much better on spontaneous casters, who just have to know the proper spells. And not all reserve feats are blasty ones. The air based one, if I remember correctly, mimics Gust of Wind (or something like that).

They have to KNOW and have a spell slot of that level available to cast. If they only know the spell but have cast all spells of that level it ceases to work.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Why not use real metamagic, stuff that improves the spell?

9d6 is about the same at that level as a single Sneak Attack from the Rogue, who gets 3 per turn, no save, no SR. Good use of a feat.

[senrath]

They have to KNOW and have a spell slot of that level available to cast. If they only know the spell but have cast all spells of that level it ceases to work.

What I meant was that they don't have to worry about preparing at least one proper spell in order to use the feat, they just have to know one and have slots open.

[Craig1f]

Why not use real metamagic, stuff that improves the spell?

9d6 is about the same at that level as a single Sneak Attack from the Rogue, who gets 3 per turn, no save, no SR. Good use of a feat.

A rogue only gets all of those attacks in one round if they are the first to act (opponents are flatfooted) or they are in position for a full-round attack against a flanked opponent (which should rarely happen if the rogue actually wants to survive combat)

I like to think of a versatile character is being one that has something useful to do every round, even if it's not as powerful as another character. A Rogue often has to wait for an opportunity to use their sneak attack. A warlock, on the other hand, can blast pretty much every round. Reserve feats allow Mages to act like Warlocks, and always have something to do, even if it isn't optimal. 4d6 is better than "I hold".

[Fixer]

Why not use real metamagic, stuff that improves the spell?

You can, but you end up with a really powerful one-shot spell, which is the opposite of the purpose of a reserve feat (low-level, at-will).

9d6 is about the same at that level as a single Sneak Attack from the Rogue, who gets 3 per turn, no save, no SR. Good use of a feat.

True, but there is no need to flank, no need to make an attack roll, and no need to worry about miss chance. At higher levels creatures have high ACs and often have miss chances. The only weakness to this approach is the save DC, which scales with the damage, and still allows half (IIRC).

One thing I was never clear on. Can you use a feat to increase the DC on the saves for reserve feats?

[Kurald Galain]

One thing I was never clear on. Can you use a feat to increase the DC on the saves for reserve feats?

If you must, the Ability Focus feat will do that for you. It's probably better to just boost the relevant ability score, though.

[Chronos]

taking the retraining rules into account these feats are totally worth it at levels 1-4/5 depending on whether you're a wizard or a sorcerer.

Except that you can't even qualify for reserve feats until you can cast spells of the appropriate level, which is 3rd for most of them.

[Gorbash]

As a 9th lvl caster I have 22 spells per day at my disposal. All of them better than any ability gained through reserve feats. And also a number of wands, scrolls and items that are more useful than those abilities. So why on earth would I spend my precious standard action casting fiery burst and doing 3d6 dmg? Even if I run out of spells (which doesn't happens that often), I always save up one polymorph as a last resort and change into something more suitable (and no, I don't use it for the cheese, I usually change into a bugbear or troll and attack with a shilelagh-empowered quarterstaff)

[Collin152]

Take the teleporting one.
It has uses, though I can't think of any right now.
Blasts?
Psh.

[Eurus]

Ah, I love Dimensional Jaunt for sheer neatness factor. I played a Wizard who made a kind of impromptu floating chair out of two Immovable Rods and used Dimensional Jaunt to travel wherever he wanted instead of flying... Not the most efficient method, but amusing nonetheless. Plus, it can come in handy for messing with enemies to keep popping around the battlefield at will. XD

The elemental summoning one is fun too, even if, as stated before, only as a substitute for a simple Summon Monster spell.

[Jack_Simth]

That also means that at 17th level a wizard can memorize a meteor swarm and have a 9d6 fiery burst at will, no AoO, and no spell resistance (which are two of the greatest benefits of reserve feats, no AoO and no spell resistance).

Also, you can use Heighten Spell to memorize a lower level spell into a higher level slot to power a reserve feat as you go up in levels. A fireball memorized in a 4th level slot can power a Fiery Burst to 4d6 damage.

I had a conjurer specialist (evocation banned) who kept the Orb of Fire spell memorized for his Fiery Burst and kept heightening it to keep its level up as high as possible for damage purposes. Not having Fireball, it was his primary attack.

Yes, but at what amounts to 1d6 per two levels, with a standard action to use, all it's really useful for is clearing mooks.

DImensional Jaunt is useful (getting around see-through obstacles, getting out of melee or grapples - goes well with being able to cast Invisibility to make it so the door is see-through). Minor Shapeshift can be handy (temp HP at will, never unarmed, or a slight boost to speed). Summon Elemental is great if your DM does a lot of traps or dangerous puzzles (and as an added bonus, it can clear mooks, too). Sunlight Eyes is improved darkvision - as it penetrates even magical darkness. Touch of Healing is useful for cutting down on wands of Cure Light (or lesser vigor). Magic Sensitive is useful until you get Permenency (at which point, it's more than redundant) ... but as it duplicates a cantrip, it's really only useful if you plan on checking for magic nearly 24/7.

But that's about the limit of useful reserve feats - and many of those aren't particularly valuable after about level 5 or 10. The offensive ones are pointless for anything beyond clearing mooks - if it's a significant threat, then the Xd6 is going to take a long time to wear it down, and the fact of it's threat will cause a significant problem. If it's not a significant threat, you may as well have the Fighter have his day.

Mind you - you can make a very strong Wizard, Cleric, or Druid that utilizes them... but then, you can make a very strong Wizard, Cleric, or Druid that utilizes Skill Focus (Craft(Pottery)). They don't really increase character power - just endurance, and that really only against mooks.

They have to KNOW and have a spell slot of that level available to cast. If they only know the spell but have cast all spells of that level it ceases to work.

Yeah, the spontaneous casters have it a little harder in terms of reserve feats - for them, Heighten Spell doesn't help.

Take the teleporting one.
It has uses, though I can't think of any right now.

Escaping grapples with no Concentration check.