A matter of math and alternate class features:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Can a Half-Dragon Goliath use Mountain Rage with Berserker Strength in order to get an additional +2 to Str above the norm for Rage, DR x/- instead of a Con bonus, large size, AND the improved set of abilities from the template (such as wings)?

[Smiley_]

I dunno about the other stuff, but the wings are given only to half-dragons large size or larger. The goliath is naturally medium, and mountain rage would not make it sprout wings spontaneously, so no. If you want wings, get a magic item or take 9 levels of dragon disciple.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

If a Goliath becomes Large sized in a rage, why would it not gain wings? Sure, I really want the machanics to work in favor of this being true, I'd just like to understand why if it doesn't. By RAW, nothing seems to be amiss with the idea, and the thematic aspect of it is just darned cool looking in my mind's eye.

[tyckspoon]

As a rough guess: The template only checks your size once, when it is first applied. If you are Large or larger at that point, you have wings and will always have wings regardless of future size changes (unless you use a shapechanging effect to become something wingless.) If you are smaller, you have no wings. That doesn't change when you change sizes because you are not becoming a half-dragon again and causing a new check for what the template gives you, you're just changing your base size.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I can see the logic behind that. However, would it not also make sense to suppose that all half-dragons have wings and only the large can make practical use of them?

[monty]

I can see the logic behind that. However, would it not also make sense to suppose that all half-dragons have wings and only the large can make practical use of them?

Someone hide the catgirls.

From a physics standpoint, the concept of only large half-dragons having usable wings doesn't make sense. Since muscle strength and wing surface area increase with the square of linear size, and weight increases with its cube, smaller half-dragons should actually have an easier time flying, unless the big ones have ridiculously large wings.

[FlyMolo]

Someone hide the catgirls.

From a physics standpoint, the concept of only large half-dragons having usable wings doesn't make sense. Since muscle strength and wing surface area increase with the square of linear size, and weight increases with its cube, smaller half-dragons should actually have an easier time flying, unless the big ones have ridiculously large wings.

Yes, but there's a certain minimum size needed for practicality. Dragon wings on a housefly fall out of the air, because air is like jello at that scale.

Tendons and the like all have to be a minimum size, for one reason or another. Brains and internal organs are a pretty uniform load, so more size, despite the nonfavorable scaling, is the only way to go. Put your brain on top of a fly. Watch it be crushed to deth.

[MeklorIlavator]

Yes, but there's a certain minimum size needed for practicality. Dragon wings on a housefly fall out of the air, because air is like jello at that scale.

Tendons and the like all have to be a minimum size, for one reason or another. Brains and internal organs are a pretty uniform load, so more size, despite the nonfavorable scaling, is the only way to go. Put your brain on top of a fly. Watch it be crushed to deth.

Considering that Dragon Wings appear to be similar to bat wings, I'd say the optimal size would be around tiny.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

If such is the case, why does a medium creature NOT gain a fly speed? Seems to me that it is a weak attempt at keeping natural flight from players.

[monty]

Yes, but there's a certain minimum size needed for practicality. Dragon wings on a housefly fall out of the air, because air is like jello at that scale.

Tendons and the like all have to be a minimum size, for one reason or another. Brains and internal organs are a pretty uniform load, so more size, despite the nonfavorable scaling, is the only way to go. Put your brain on top of a fly. Watch it be crushed to deth.

As was just mentioned, dragon wings are like bat wings, which work perfectly well on less-than-large creatures. There is a minimum size, but large is certainly not that.

As for scaling, let's take a human (120 lbs), and an ogre (600 lbs) as examples. Note I'm using the lighter end of both weight ranges. In order to keep each in the air, they must exert a downward force of approximately 550 N and 2730 N, respectively (ignore rounding errors). Now, the pressure exerted by the wings (a function of the rate at which the wings flap, which is dependent on muscle strength) multiplied by the surface area of the wings should give the necessary force. Since both of those are related to the square of linear size, the ogre, at 5 times the weight of the human, needs 5^(3/2), or about 11, times the wing size, despite being less than twice its size.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

So... it's still conjecture at this point? I find it odd that his has not been ruled on by the Wizards folks yet.

[Quietus]

Why does it matter? Aren't goliaths considered large size for anything that would benefit them anyway? Therefore, halfdragon goliath = wings.

[Burley]

This is something you'd have to flush with your DM.
My DM instincts tell me thusly: Probably, No. Golialths are big, thick, brawny and, dare I say, Burley folks. Things that fly are not those things I just said, except for Dragons, which are Magical Beasts that breath fire, change form and all that other junk. Magic junk usually trumps logic.
However, the Goliath (I would say) does have a strong enough muscular structure to be able to flap those wings, but, because Goliaths are so muscular and resiliant, they'd be too dang heavy for wings of their size. Birds and bats are able to fly becuase their bones are light weight (hollow) and their wings are their forelimbs.
I would rule that, if you really wanted to do this, your goliath would not have normal arms and normal wings, but rather, a combination of the two. Probably a membrane running up the sides, the way some dragons and bats do.

Or, I'd say go for it, but because of your girth, your maneuverability would be poor.

[Valairn]

This is something you'd have to flush with your DM.
My DM instincts tell me thusly: Probably, No. Golialths are big, thick, brawny and, dare I say, Burley folks. Things that fly are not those things I just said, except for Dragons, which are Magical Beasts that breath fire, change form and all that other junk. Magic junk usually trumps logic.
However, the Goliath (I would say) does have a strong enough muscular structure to be able to flap those wings, but, because Goliaths are so muscular and resiliant, they'd be too dang heavy for wings of their size. Birds and bats are able to fly becuase their bones are light weight (hollow) and their wings are their forelimbs.
I would rule that, if you really wanted to do this, your goliath would not have normal arms and normal wings, but rather, a combination of the two. Probably a membrane running up the sides, the way some dragons and bats do.

Or, I'd say go for it, but because of your girth, your maneuverability would be poor.

Wait you are arguing that dragons can fly cause of magic, but half-dragons can't fly cause of physics? Half-Dragons are half dragon. They can fly cause they are magic too. As a side note, Powerful Build MAY allow the Goliath to benefit from the wings as if he were a Large Creature, but the wording of Powerful Build does not guarantee it, so ask your DM.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

If it really boils down to what the DM will allow (due to lack of official ruling), fantastic. He usually has the same mindset I do.

[Jastermereel]

Wait you are arguing that dragons can fly cause of magic, but half-dragons can't fly cause of physics? Half-Dragons are half dragon. They can fly cause they are magic too. As a side note, Powerful Build MAY allow the Goliath to benefit from the wings as if he were a Large Creature, but the wording of Powerful Build does not guarantee it, so ask your DM.

Wouldn't that make perfect sense then? If dragons are magic and a half-dragon is, well, half dragon, then it's only half magic; the other half is physics and physics is completely against a Goliath flying.

Also, I suspect, but don't have the wording on me, that powerful build mostly applies to stat bonuses for things like trip, bull rush and the like. Even mountain rage shouldn't do the trick by making him actually large any more than casting "enlarge person" (or an equivalent that applies to goliaths) would give him wings.

It'd be quite neat, if a little comical, to see this work, but I don't think rule other than rule 0 allows for it.

[Starsinger]

If such is the case, why does a medium creature NOT gain a fly speed? Seems to me that it is a weak attempt at keeping natural flight from players.

Ding ding ding! Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner! It precisely is an attempt to keep natural flight from players. If anything, I'd allow a medium half dragon to fly like a Raptoran.

[Valairn]

Wouldn't that make perfect sense then? If dragons are magic and a half-dragon is, well, half dragon, then it's only half magic; the other half is physics and physics is completely against a Goliath flying.

Also, I suspect, but don't have the wording on me, that powerful build mostly applies to stat bonuses for things like trip, bull rush and the like. Even mountain rage shouldn't do the trick by making him actually large any more than casting "enlarge person" (or an equivalent that applies to goliaths) would give him wings.

It'd be quite neat, if a little comical, to see this work, but I don't think rule other than rule 0 allows for it.

I'd argue that the wings on a Half-Dragon are pure dragon wings, considering the creature wouldn't have wings at all except for the magic in their blood. And anyway, if half-dragon = half the magic of a dragon and a Large creature is less than half the size of a dragon, I think that's MORE than enough magic to let them fly.

And in regards to the previous poster who cares if players can fly at 1st level, flight is only unbalanced if you fight against things that can't fly, which falls under a DM decision, not a game design decision.

[monty]

And in regards to the previous poster who cares if players can fly at 1st level, flight is only unbalanced if you fight against things that can't fly, which falls under a DM decision, not a game design decision.

It's not flying at first level anyway. Half-dragon is +3 LA, which isn't too soon before players can get flight anyway (Fly is a 3rd level spell, which a wizard can get one level later). Besides, other templates give natural flight with similar LA (half-celestial/fiend) and non-template races can give it at even lower levels (like several varieties of fey) without being Large.

[Epinephrine]

Tendons and the like all have to be a minimum size, for one reason or another. Brains and internal organs are a pretty uniform load, so more size, despite the nonfavorable scaling, is the only way to go. Put your brain on top of a fly. Watch it be crushed to deth.

Brains are most certainly not "uniform load". They in fact increase on roughly a power of 3/4 compared with size. This has to do with the amount of brain required simply to detect and process information from a larger body, and to control the muscles, etc.. Plots of brain size by mass for creatures of a type (say reptiles) will lie along a line of slope 3/4 on a log/log plot. If one plots mammals on the same graph, the slope is about the same, simply a bit higher. By this logic, small creatures would require proportionally more brain size by mass than bigger ones, but it does scale, and grows faster than surface area (which would be a slope of 2/3 if plotted against mass).

[Hadrian_Emrys]

It's a level 6 game, and I game across the problem as I cooked up the unusual blend of a Feral, Half-Brass Dragon, and Goliath. I saw dramatic possibilities of a blend of Mountain Rage, Beserker Strength, and the template given the stipulation of being nearer than not to death and the possible dramatic revelation. Getting bashed to near death, only to become a winged horror, is just too cool a mental image (expecially if I somehow manage to survive long enough to become a Frostrager).

[RTGoodman]

Why does it matter? Aren't goliaths considered large size for anything that would benefit them anyway? Therefore, halfdragon goliath = wings.

Nope. There's a very specific set of circumstances in which Powerful Build applies: when you're subject to a size modifier for an opposed check (grapple, bull rush, etc.) and it's beneficial; when determining whether or not a creature's special attacks can effect you based on size (like Improved Grab or Swallow Whole); and when determining what size weapon you use.

That's it.

By RAW, Goliaths don't get dragon wings. In my games I houserule that any Half-Dragon gets wings and can fly like a Raptoran (starts out with just gliding, then limited flight at 5 HD, then full flight at 10HD), and I think that's a pretty reasonable houserule.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

As far as I see it: medium > powerful build > large is a simple progression that makes the wing issue probable. It's not like one would be using magic to boost one's size, it's some latent ability within the race.

[Mando Knight]

Ding ding ding! Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner! It precisely is an attempt to keep natural flight from players. If anything, I'd allow a medium half dragon to fly like a Raptoran.

So would I. In fact, I'd just houserule away the Large restriction on half-dragon flight. It always seemed stupid to me, and my idea of a half-dragon usually invokes the presence of wings. The other stuff is okay, but wings and breath weapons are why I like dragons in the first place.