Throwing a Spear

[stupnick]

ok this might seem like a stupid question... but we are having a real debat in the arena tourney here.

A spear is a two handed melee weapon, but when thrown, is it still a two handed throwing weapon? or do you only need 1 hand to throw it, and you can hold a shield in the other hand?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

The spear's description does not specify that it becomes a one-handed weapon when thrown (like the lance's specifies that it can be wielded one-handed when mounted), so the spear is thrown as a two-handed weapon, using the above rules (as a full-round action). Thus you can't use a shield while throwing a spear. Use a javelin instead. Exchanging slightly over 1 point of average damage for +10 feet to range increment is a good deal.

Don't ask how this works or makes sense; it doesn't. D&D weapons and rules have nothing to do with realism or real weapons and fighting.

[ryuteki]

*Blink* I would LOVE to hear any plausible explanation as to how exactly you could even begin to throw a spear two-handed. Seriously, short of using both hands on a ballista, it's not going to happen.

On the other hand, while I stand by that, I could still see someone needing to take a full round action to find the right balance-point on the spear before throwing it, then recovering, because you really need to put your back into tossing a polearm. This would be a reasonable ruling if you felt it necessary for the sake of balance to maintain part of the two-handed rule.

[John Campbell]

Spears are thrown one-handed, under paragraph III, subsection A of the "Don't Be Completely Stupid" section of the rules. If anyone claims otherwise, I recommend throwing a spear at them.

Also, I'm pretty sure that everything in that above quote after, "It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown..." is talking about improvised thrown weapons, and doesn't apply to spears, which have a listed range increment. So throwing a spear doesn't take a full-round action, and it retains its 20/x3 crit range.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I would love to hear any plausible explanation as to how exactly two-bladed swords, orc double axes, and spiked chains are supposed to work, or why the standard longsword weights 4 lbs. and the standard greatsword weighs 8 lbs.

D&D weapons don't make sense. The spear is a two-handed weapon, and there's no exception stating that it becomes anything else when thrown.

Of course, there's a bit of an issue with there not existing light, one-handed, or two-handed ranged weapons (the javelin isn't defined as any of those, for instance), and the order in which things are stated in the descriptions might be inferred so that the bit about throwing two-handed weapons refers to throwing weapons not designed to be thrown, but I don't see any real support for that in the rules. A two-handed melee weapon that is also meant to thrown is still a two-handed weapon, as far as I can see.

Maybe you need your off-hand free to balance yourself for the demanding throw (which already takes a full 6 seconds or so).

I don't imagine ruling that throwing any appropriately-sized melee weapon that is meant to be thrown is done with one hand, and that only throwing two-handed melee weapons not meant to be thrown (like a greatsword) follows the above rules would unbalance anything, though. But that's not the actual rules anymore.

[Fhaolan]

I would love to hear any plausible explanation as to <sniP> why the standard longsword weights 4 lbs.

That weight includes the scabbard, normally lined with lead to prevent Superman from seeing how spiffy of a sword you're carrying...

[mostlyharmful]

I would love to hear any plausible explanation as to how exactly two-bladed swords, orc double axes, and spiked chains are supposed to work.

Simple, for the double-bladed sword you hold it gingerly away from your body and sort of poke one end of it at people, hoping all the time that they don't hit it and send the daft other half into your side.

For the Double-Axe you just throw it at the people gapping at your ludicrous piece of crap and hope they take long enough batting it away and charging you down that you can get a dagger out cause it's a better weapon to have....

For the Spiked Chain I have Nooooo idea. Maybe if you weld big iron balls to each end and then shoot it out of a cannon?

[thubby]

just because you don't hold it with both hands doesn't mean it only takes one hand.

chain weapons exist. chain whip

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

... the spear is thrown as a ... full-round action...

Such a reading completely ignores the context where the line about requiring a full round action for two-handed weapons appear.
You are taking a line inside the segment dealing with throwing weapons not designed to be thrown and applying it generally, this is IMHO not the intended interpretation.

A spear is a thrown weapon and can be used for this purpose requiring no extra time or extra effort compared to the use in melee.

[Narthon the Bold]

I assume you throw the spear two handed in an underhand fashion, similar to a caber toss.

[Kurald Galain]

Just for the record...

I saw a couple of LARP'ers once who were spear-fighting by holding a three-foot-long (nerf) spear in one hand by the very tip of the spear (no, not the pointy tip) and using it to club each other over the head with the pointy bit.

These are the folks who don't know the difference between a military sling and a dennis-the-menace sling. These are the people who think it requires special training to grip a halberd in a different spot on its haft. These are the kind of person who writes the PHB.

[ZeroNumerous]

I would love to hear any plausible explanation as to how exactly two-bladed swords, orc double axes, and spiked chains are supposed to work, or why the standard longsword weights 4 lbs. and the standard greatsword weighs 8 lbs.

Two-bladed sword: Long, sweeping motions, finesse, and elaborate jumping methods. See: Jedi.

Orc double axes: Hold above head. Spin. Slam downward in event of ducking. See: Ball-and-chain.

Spiked Chain: See: Flail.

[Enguhl]

To the original question. There is no RAW answer to this. But (IMHO) spear become one handed when thrown, simply because accurately throwing a spear two handed is... well it isn't.

[Grynning]

...For the Spiked Chain I have Nooooo idea. Maybe if you weld big iron balls to each end and then shoot it out of a cannon?

That's hilarious because that's kind of a description of the weapon I cooked up for a fighter I played one time....sort of a response to the fact that a ludicrous weapon like the "spiked chain" was the best weapon in D&D. My DM and I designed a magical cannon, with a reel attached, that fired a ball attached to a chain. After blasting something with it, the reel would (magically) activate and pull the chain back to about a 10 ft. length, turning the weapon into a large-ish heavy flail with reach. Totally ridiculous, but very fun, especially the first time I was introduced to the rest of the group.

Back on the topic of spears, it's always baffled me that the standard spear is listed as a two-handed weapon. You can certainly wield one in two-hands, but a spear and shield combination was pretty standard throughout a lot of history, and very effective at that. I don't think the shortspear weapon entry really covers the one-handed spear adequately, a one-handed spear is a pretty powerful thrusting weapon, at least on par with, say, a longsword. (not that 1 point of average damage really matters much, but it's the principle of the thing).

[Samakain]

i'd like to take this moment to state that i have minimal expreriance or education about the real-world mechanics of our middle-ages melee weapons.

I do however want to point out that even with this limited base of knowledge, there is one weapon that causes me to rage at its stupidity, and i'll take the time to share it with you now.

The Orc Double Axe

WTF

Spin it around your head? Really? then bring it down on people? what are you a warrior or an out of control CLOTHES LINE FFS. its the most ridiculas, stupid peice of sharpened metal i have ever laid eyes on! When you look at this weapon i want you to realise this is the one reason orcs are still swamp dwelling CR1/2s, the stupidity required to make this weapon goes so deep its ****ing GENETIC

The two ended sword is close! but i'm two much of a jedi fanboy to complain to loudly.

And for the record i believe the actual mechanics of throwing a spear that large would take a step or 2, and a complete force of your entire body to shift it, you would not have your other hand on your weapon, but instead use it to counter balance. I don't think the extra 1/2 strength penality should be taken off because, god damn, thats a lot of sharpened wood comming down and you just put everything you had into it.

You want fast spears

Get the short spear

9/10 Spartans recommend it

the last spartan is a mutant traitor so we don't listen to him

Sa

[Chronos]

I always picture wielding an orc double axe as being sort of like paddling a kayak. Though for that, the two axe-blades should be set at right angles to each other, not parallel.

[holywhippet]

The longspear needs to be wielded two handed because its so damn long. It's a reach weapon so it can hit opponents 10 feet away which means its even longer than that. You wouldn't be able to control it if you were wielding it one handed. A shortspear can be handled one handed since its not as long and thus not as hard to control.

As for throwing, I'd say you need your second hand to keep it under control right up until the point when you throw it. If you don't understand what I mean, go and pick up a piece of wood that's about 15 feet long. Unless you are holding it in the centre of mass you won't be able to control it easily.

[Recaiden]

By RAW, it takes 2 hands to throw a spear; however, that doesn't make any sense, and i recomend ruling that it is thrown one-handed.

[Ward.]

How can any one not see how useful the double axe would be, in the hands of an orc.

Any spear that would be useful as a spear would need two hands to throw it, obviously not for the act of actually launching it but steadying it up until then. (holywhippet pointed this out already)

[Ascension]

You can't even throw spears! Spears aren't meant for throwing! You throw javelins, people, javelins! WHY OH WHY does everybody and their cousin want to turn spears into throwing weapons in fiction?!?!?!?

GAH!!!

[Matthew]

No, you can throw spears. You can see them doing it on the Bayeux Tapestry and there's plenty of historical evidence for it. A Javelin is just a specialised sort of throwing spear.

[drengnikrafe]

You can throw anything. (Okay, not stuff that's too heavy to lift, but...)
Can you throw it well? Totally different question. But you can throw it. *Sheesh*

[Hal]

Of course you can throw a spear two-handed. How else could you get the most out of Power Throw?

[Ascension]

Okay, let me rephrase that. Yes, you can throw a spear. However, it's a really stupid idea to try to throw a weapon that isn't properly balanced for throwing. Throwing weapons are usually almost entirely different from their non-throwing counterparts. You don't throw that which is not meant to be thrown. You just don't.

This knowledge is why I hate myself for liking the Bloodstorm Blade prestige class. It is based on what is quite likely the stupidest mechanic in the entire game, but I can't help myself. It's an incredibly guilty pleasure.

Yes, there is something "cool" about throwing that which is not meant to be thrown. But I don't think you should be able to throw a "spear" without the throw anything feat. Shortspear, maybe, as the pilum was certainly meant for throwing, and should probably have a larger damage die than the D&D javelin, but not the spear.

[Hal]

Okay, let me rephrase that. Yes, you can throw a spear. However, it's a really stupid idea to try to throw a weapon that isn't properly balanced for throwing. Throwing weapons are usually almost entirely different from their non-throwing counterparts. You don't throw that which is not meant to be thrown. You just don't.

Unless you have Throw Anything. Then knock yourself out

[Ascension]

Unless you have Throw Anything. Then knock yourself out

I already acknowledged Throw Anything. It's a really, really stupid feat, but I can't stop myself from loving it, at least in conjunction with Bloodstorm Blade. If I ever play one, though, I'm going to flavor it as having my character properly weight his improbable weapons for throwing rather than saying that he has magically gained the ability to fling unbalanced weapons with precision.

[Matthew]

I think of it as being more of a spectrum...

Thrusting Spear - good for thrusting, bad for throwing
Normal Spear - okay for thrusting, okay for throwing
Throwing Spear - bad for thrusting, good for throwing

[holywhippet]

You can't even throw spears! Spears aren't meant for throwing! You throw javelins, people, javelins! WHY OH WHY does everybody and their cousin want to turn spears into throwing weapons in fiction?!?!?!?

GAH!!!

How about history rather than fiction? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear

[sikyon]

Okay, let me rephrase that. Yes, you can throw a spear. However, it's a really stupid idea to try to throw a weapon that isn't properly balanced for throwing. Throwing weapons are usually almost entirely different from their non-throwing counterparts. You don't throw that which is not meant to be thrown. You just don't.

This knowledge is why I hate myself for liking the Bloodstorm Blade prestige class. It is based on what is quite likely the stupidest mechanic in the entire game, but I can't help myself. It's an incredibly guilty pleasure.

Yes, there is something "cool" about throwing that which is not meant to be thrown. But I don't think you should be able to throw a "spear" without the throw anything feat. Shortspear, maybe, as the pilum was certainly meant for throwing, and should probably have a larger damage die than the D&D javelin, but not the spear.

Indeed. I can see a spear requiring two hands to be thrown because you'd use one hand to try and throw it and the other would be counterbalancing carefully, in which a sheild or additional weapon would make it too difficult. Spears are not meant to be thrown, they make poor thrown weapons compared to the javelin as they are not designed to be thrown.

[Hurlbut]

Look at the spear as a heavy javelin by the virtue of having a better crit multipler. A pilum is a heavy javelin but it was used as a spear normally as well. Javelin is a "light" specailized throwing spear that have good range.