Netheril Arcanists are only epic casters in Faerun. Right?

[neochaos]

Well, My DM and I am arguing about epic spell in Faerun. He's saying that only 10th or above spell are banned by Mystra, and I said that 10th or higher spells are basically epic spell. Who's right? and can you give me support evidence (like rulebook saying about that)?

[Jasdoif]

Strictly speaking the DM is, by definition, right.

That said, this bit on epic spells in the SRD might help you...or it might not.

Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.

[CASTLEMIKE]

You are more right than he is depending on what source books are being utilized in game. Sounds like your DM has a lot of 2E books when Mystra restricted Epic spells of L10+ the spell Karsus used to steal (CN) Mystryl's divinity was a L12 spell. Her successor Mystra restricted spellcasting afterwards.

Races of Faerun has the Elven High Mage on pages 182 - 183 which have Epic spellcasting.

Faerun has lots of Mythals which are Epic spells.

Powers of Faerun has the New Epic Spell Amaunator's Eternal Sun on pages 60 - 61.

PGtF is what you really want though Epic Eye of Horus-Re, Epic Hathran, Epic Runecaster, Netherese Arcanist, Epic Shadow Adept.

Epic Guild Wizard of Waterdeep in MoF:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20020915a

[leperkhaun]

according to FR lore, when netheril fell mystra restricted the use of spells higher than 9th level.

However its important to remember that in FR, the jump of power from 9th to 10th level spells was huge...much more so than mechanically it is according to the epic level handbook.

Now with that said, that does not mean that you couldnt come up with a deal with your DM. Perhaps a quest/deal with mystra to maybe allow epic spells of a certain level (EI - ones with a spellcraft check of less than 100, no rituals, can only burn 5-10k to mitigate).

[neochaos]

Well, We're using 3.5, but my DM started D&D with AD&D. Maybe that's the reason.

[The_Werebear]

The Epic level handbook features FR Arcane casters with Epic Level Spellcasting. In fact, most of the NPC's presented there are epic casters.

[The Professor]

This has always been one of my more favorite topics.

In a sense, the Netherese were beyond epic spells, because the magic they used was just a continuation of casting, not what we classify as Epic Magic. They used 10th, 11th+ spells, which you just... cast, no Spellcraft checks or anything to my knowledge.

In the Lost Empires of Faerun book, it goes over this briefly, explaining that Mystra has banned magic of 10th level and higher, but epic magic works slightly different, and that's not banned.

The way to get around this, of course, is to use the Shadow Weave, 'cause Shar has no such silly ban, then you just need to find some examples of 10th level spells and the like.

[neochaos]

asdfasfafkaf.....then why the hack some of 10th level spells in AD&D Netheril book are converted as Epic Spell? Like Proctiv's Move Mountain and Tolodine's Killing Wind....You can find some in Player's Guide to Faerun, pg 136

[neochaos]

Also, why doesn't Chosen of Mystra and other NPC are not using Epic Spells?

Sammaster used Elven Mythal, I heard,....

[The Professor]

That is an excellent question that I wish I could answer. I'm AFB at the moment, otherwise I'd cite the page it says Netheril liked 10th+ level spells, while elves favored epic magic.

I imagine they put them in the books as epic spells so that players could use them. Mystra won't let you use the 10th level version, which are probably just like the epic version, but without the spellcraft check and gold costs.

[senrath]

Well, I know that there is an Epic feat that allows you gain higher than normal spell slots, so I'd say that while Epic spells are treated as 10th level, not all 10th+ level spells are technically Epic spells.

[Kizara]

Well, I know that there is an Epic feat that allows you gain higher than normal spell slots, so I'd say that while Epic spells are treated as 10th level, not all 10th+ level spells are technically Epic spells.

QFT.

Quickened Destruction is a 12th-level spell. This is not an 'epic' spell.

However, the flavor you are describing is along the lines of having a 10th, 11th etc spell lists and to continue spellcasting progression. I think that would be very interesting, although I don't think you could keep the escalation up for long. 12th-level being able to steal divine ranks isn't too far fetched, although I personally would've pegged that level of escalation at about 15th.

[fractal_uk]

Mystra banned access to traditional 10th level and above spells when Karsus attempted to ascend to divinity. Netheril having a significant number of mages who practiced a style of magic where spell levels continued to advance beyond 9th levels in a similar manner to normal spells, only far more powerful.

It is still possibly to gain access to 10th and above level spell slots by taking the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat, but the only use for this now is metamagiced versions of lower level spells as real 10th and above level spells were banned.

Another type of spellcasting that was practised was Elven High Magic, which follows the standard epic spellcasting rules, this style of casting magic more powerful magic was not banned by Mystra. These type of spells are merely treated as being 10th levels spells for certain purposes.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'm pretty sure that Mystral did not ban 10th level spells, only 12th level ones. 10th and 11th level spells still worked fine after Karsus' fall.

[mostlyharmful]

Page 43 of lost empires of Faerun, gives a rundown of the ban.. Yes, all spell slots above Ninth can only be filled with metaed lower level stuff and Epic Spellcasting is fine.

[Dark Knight Renee]

asdfasfafkaf.....then why the hack some of 10th level spells in AD&D Netheril book are converted as Epic Spell? Like Proctiv's Move Mountain and Tolodine's Killing Wind....You can find some in Player's Guide to Faerun, pg 136

While Mystra banned 10th level spells, I recall reading something about how some/many of these spells could be replicated as Epic spells with minimal changes - this was in-game fluff info, not crunch, IIRC. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I read it. Probably either Magic of Faerun or Lost Empires.

I also imagine that, while their cities falling out of the sky killed most of them, not all Netherese mages died out at once. They would have converted some spells.

[mostlyharmful]

Lost Empires. Where it talks about Ioulaums Longevity, apparently there was a 10th+ version that he used to use, then he rebuilt it as an Epic casting (given in the book) and his apprentice (Tabra I think) nicked it and is still alive in Waterdeep thanks to casting it a few times.

[Roderick_BR]

Technically, you both are right.
Spells above 9th are banned AND spells above 9th are epic. These statements are not mutually exclusive.

Back in AD&D, characters could learn spells only up to 9th, save a few special rulebooks. There had very few ways to get spells of 10th and higher, and most were off-limits for PCs. Forgotten made a fluff for it.

Then came the Epic Level books (they were already around 2nd edition? I think there already had some rules for characters above 20th level, before it was officially called "Epic").

Comes 3rd edition, new rules for epic rules.

[senrath]

Technically, you both are right.
Spells above 9th are banned AND spells above 9th are epic. These statements are not mutually exclusive.

Not quite. Spells above 9th are epic, but they are NOT epic spells. They require epic levels to cast, due to needing higher spell slots than regularly given, but they are not epic spells. Epic spells are completely different and even have a different set of rules than regular magic.

[Recaiden]

In an old 2nd ed book, it said that level 12+ spells were banned, and humans (not elves, dwarves etc.) were also banned from levels 10+. The difference between 10th level and epic spells exists. You cast them differently and need different feats for each.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Here's a link to some free material you and your DM might find useful at Wizard's regarding Epic magic:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

You want two downloads:

Arcane Age: Netheril - Empire of Magic

Cormanthyr

[Tsotha-lanti]

Lost Empires of Faerûn addresses the ban, I believe. Spells of 10th level and above are banned, but epic spells are not - in fact, epic spells are what was "invented" afterwards to make up for the lack of 10th-level and above spells. (Although I think the elves used them all along?)

Netherese Arcanists did, indeed, use epic spells (well, they should've used 10th-level and above spells, but you've still got Netherese epic spells in LEoF and other FR supplements, like Proctiv's Move Mountain).

However, they were neither the first, the only, or the last epic casters: Elven High Magic is epic magic. Mythals are created with the Mythal epic seed (which the Netherese also used to create similar effects).

I believe Halaster, the Mad Mage of Undermountain, is/should be/was an epic spellcaster, and I think Marune the Masked, a Shadow Thief leader in Waterdeep, is supposed to use or have used an epic spell to give the Shadow Thieves an edge in Waterdeep (creating a mythal-style effect). Pretty sure Marune's over 20th-level, too.

Oddly, the Chosen of Mystra, like the Seven Sisters and Elminster and Khelben, don't seem to be epic spellcasters (although I suppose it makes sense; they use magic responsibly and "ecologically", and epic magic is generally very dangerous and demanding), even though Alustriel apparently created or helped create the mythal of Silverymoon.


As far as fluff goes, I'd generally rule that only by learning Elven High Magic (for which no one can apply; you're chosen, and one of the prerequisites is that you have no desire to learn it) or ancient Netherese secrets can anyone actually get the Epic Spellcasting feat. Well, okay, so there's also divine casters, like the dude who did/will cast an epic spell to create a permanent sun in an area, resurrecting the faith of Amanautor.

So yeah, epic spellcasting exists in Faerûn outside of Netheril. There are even two PrCs - Netherese Arcanist and Elven High Mage.

Edit: It may be worth noting that the majority of epic magic in Faerûn seems to be Mythals.