Get Your TV Out of My DnD!

[Thinker]

There are many posts here and elsewhere that talk about what they want from an RPG. What people seem to misunderstand is that, like a television show, not every RPG is for every person. Even when a game changes editions it can become a whole different game and experience. This leads to the following: Get your TV out of my DnD!

Dungeons and Dragons: The standard by which all RPGs are measured. It has the longest history and the largest fan-base. With many editions coming out, it is constantly in a state of change.

• DnD 4e is the Simpsons of RPGs. They aim at a large audience with little-to-no regard for a "core" group of players. People enjoy it because they don't have to think very hard about it. This is not a bad thing, it’s a different thing.
• DnD 3e would be the Seinfeld: it was also largely about a generalist approach and like Seinfeld, no matter what came out in a splat book you could be assured that nothing had really happened, wizards were always king. Both had a good, long run and both were not for everyone.
• DnD 2e was easily Friends. It was a fun show that lots of people enjoyed, but there were better shows coming out at the same time. Its only saving grace was that it was on NBC (or had the DnD name) to draw new fans. There were plenty of good parts, but there was no reason it should triumph over its contemporaries.
• DnD 1e is I Love Lucy. Nobody likes it or watches it, but everyone remembers it as being good. Late night reruns can still be found if you look hard enough, but they're mostly homage to a long gone time.

Mutants & Masterminds/True 20: These systems are very fun to play, but have a small fan-base. This makes them fit in with Futurama. Wildly popular, but often overshadowed by the likes of DnD because the basic system was created by the same people. They have some good ideas, but many people won't get to see them because they're too busy watching other things.
White Wolf: These elitists want everyone to know they think they're better than everyone. They practically say so in their advertising and they take themselves way too seriously, much like ER. They have "important emergencies" pop up all the time and deal with each one as though its the end of the world, much like how every main character in Exalted could cause the end of the world. The system is fun, but the producers leave a bit to be desired.
GURPS: This system should have been one of the greats, but sadly fell out of favor. A show that won all kinds of awards was very similar: Arrested Development. AD had the misfortune of being too complex for Joe Average, much like GURPS. It turns out the fans just wanted Fox to entertain, not make them think.

There are plenty of other systems out there to pick on and there is not necessarily anything wrong with any of them, or these for that matter. It seems like people get uppity about system-change because they don't want to just keep on watching reruns of their favorite shows, they want new stuff. They can make new episodes on their own by splicing together older ones or coming up with plots that make sense to themselves, but the fact is the producers long ago ran out of material and don't want to destroy storyline or rehash the same one. Like all tv shows, no system is inherently wrong, just wrong for certain people.

[Morty]

Dammit. I thought it was going to be a thread about applying terms and methods from movies to tabletop roleplaying, which is a major beef of mine.
But on-topic, I agree. No system is for everybody, the problems start when people on both sides of discussion start using "I don't like it, therefore it means it's inherently wrong" argument.

[Pirate_King]

White Wolf: These elitists want everyone to know they think they're better than everyone. They practically say so in their advertising and they take themselves way too seriously, much like ER. They have "important emergencies" pop up all the time and deal with each one as though its the end of the world, much like how every main character in Exalted could cause the end of the world. The system is fun, but the producers leave a bit to be desired.

Totally true. My friend who runs a White Wolf game actually makes fun of me for playing D&D, as if she is less of a geek or something.

[FinalJustice]

White Wolf: These elitists want everyone to know they think they're better than everyone. They practically say so in their advertising and they take themselves way too seriously, much like ER. They have "important emergencies" pop up all the time and deal with each one as though its the end of the world, much like how every main character in Exalted could cause the end of the world. The system is fun, but the producers leave a bit to be desired.

Typical undergraduate whinning. Graduate yourselves from D&D, children.

Sarcasm sign. That damn' stupid marketing made me hate White Wolf.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I wouldn't say D&D 3e is like Seinfeld, since I don't want to beat the hell out of every 3rd edition PC for being a jackass (except Kramer). Nor was 3e/3.5e a particularly long runner as far as RPGs go.

Frasier, maybe? Spun off of a wildly popular base, evolved into a distinct style that still kept some unnecessary holdovers. And again, had the network name going for it.

[Hazkali]

Typical undergraduate whinning. Graduate yourselves from D&D, children.

Sarcasm sign. That damn' stupid marketing made me hate White Wolf.

Wow. How unbelievably obnoxious, pretentious and condescending was that advert? *Shudders*

[Morty]

The very best thing about this "advert" was how Exalted is apparently a better system because it gives PCs more power. By that logic, WFRPG is the most sucky system in existence.

[Pirate_King]

I have no problem with the white wolf system, just the attitude of the people who play it. It's kind of like the PC vs Mac thing. Not only do half the mac users I know have an unhealthy relationship with their computer, they take every opportunity to tell me how great it is. Although, I suppose I would have a use for my unnecessarily large collection of d10s. Personally, I like D&D as a happy medium between the RP heavy WW and the dice rolling of palladium. And to advertise your system as a necessarily more mature or sophisticated one? That pretty much makes you a total douche-bag, and will alienate half your consumer base.

[purepolarpanzer]

Wow. How unbelievably obnoxious, pretentious and condescending was that advert? *Shudders*

He was joking. Shouldn't have made it so no one can see it, but I wanted to defuse this now.

[Xuincherguixe]

The very best thing about this "advert" was how Exalted is apparently a better system because it gives PCs more power. By that logic, WFRPG is the most sucky system in existence.

I suspect that what this means (though I'm not certain) is that it means power over plot, and ability to influence events, rather than being godlike.

My assumption for WFRPG is that it's likely that your character is weak, puny, and probably won't have a lot of influence on the world. But if they have good power over plot... actually I don't know how to finish that sentence because I'm not quite sure if I'm stating my own opinion, or speaking for White Wolf (which I'm really not in a position to). Being involved in the story is the whole point of roleplaying games. What that role is can vary. If you're not allowed to overcome appropriate obstacles for your level of significance creatively? Then it probably is a pretty sucky system. But more likely it's a sucky GM. Even if the system is against you, they can always metaphorically rip out parts of the rule book, and staple in a few extra pages. (I would not recommend this literally)

I could make guesses as to what White Wolf believe, but I don't really know much about how they think. As far as I can tell it's mostly that they just believe they have a superior game. Which in all honesty they might. I've got to say that I don't like some of the attitude in D&D. And Exalted seems to have some good design decisions (it might have some really bad ones, all my knowledge is second hand). But it's incredibly inappropriate to be that demeaning and condescending. Just because it's a bit better doesn't mean that you have to hammer it over people's heads.


That being said, I'd rather play a good game of D&D than a bad White Wolf one. And I'm definitely not going to insult people just because they play a particular game. Well, maybe FATAL...

[Behold_the_Void]

He was joking. Shouldn't have made it so no one can see it, but I wanted to defuse this now.

He was, but White Wolf sure isn't.

[Pirate_King]

He was, but White Wolf sure isn't.

Yeah, I think the comments were more toward the wording in the advert itself.

any how, on the subject of power over plot, that definitely has less to do with the system and more to do with the GM. My current game is interesting in that my GM has inserted things that have nothing to do with the plot based around the PC's; There was an explosion at a nearby tavern that had nothing to do with our particular storyline, at least in terms with our BBEG. It was just something that our characters may or may not react to in a certain way, and gave the story background. it was kind of like the explosion at the beginning of Children of Men(movie, not the book. most of the explosions in the book occur "off screen"). There was no way for our characters to find the cause of the explosion, it was just part of the political situation and allowed us to develop our characters in terms of reactions to it.

hm. I wonder how relevant that was.

[Thinker]

I wouldn't say D&D 3e is like Seinfeld, since I don't want to beat the hell out of every 3rd edition PC for being a jackass (except Kramer). Nor was 3e/3.5e a particularly long runner as far as RPGs go.

Frasier, maybe? Spun off of a wildly popular base, evolved into a distinct style that still kept some unnecessary holdovers. And again, had the network name going for it.

My comparison to Seinfeld was that no matter the events of the episode, nothing ever really changed for any of the characters. In DnD, no matter what splatbooks come out, Druid, Cleric, and Wizard are the most powerful classes. It was also a simple comedy that stuck to a formula. Frasier was an incredibly long run and most of their jokes were incredibly subtle or complex.

Feel free to add your own TV show - RPG system comparisons.

[DraPrime]

I wonder if the people at White Wolf realize how incredibly arrogant they are?

[Nerd-o-rama]

My comparison to Seinfeld was that no matter the events of the episode, nothing ever really changed for any of the characters. In DnD, no matter what splatbooks come out, Druid, Cleric, and Wizard are the most powerful classes. It was also a simple comedy that stuck to a formula. Frasier was an incredibly long run and most of their jokes were incredibly subtle or complex.

Feel free to add your own TV show - RPG system comparisons.

You're probably right, I just can't stand Seinfeld, whereas D&D 3.5 is my second-favorite RPG, next to Mutants & Masterminds (but fortunately, Futurama is my very favorite show and massively underrated, so I agree with you there). And I think Frasier was a bit overrated in its "intelligence" myself, but I have high standards, and it was still a good show.

[Kurald Galain]

I wonder if the people at White Wolf realize how incredibly arrogant they are?

Yeah....

suppose for a moment that we believe that marketing tripe - what would the next step be, Get your PHD, play Paranoia?

(failure to do so is treason)

[Starbuck_II]

Okay, can get an analysis of Quantum Leap? It is like Futurama, but it was a little smart with all the science stuff like how he travels through time, but only in his own lifetime (until they broke that rule that one time).

[Rutee]

Totally true. My friend who runs a White Wolf game actually makes fun of me for playing D&D, as if she is less of a geek or something.

I legitimately think DnD is a pretty bad system, frankly. Have done so /before/ I found White Wolf. That's why I jumped ship so quick. The primary problems have to do with the way classes end up being handled (I prefer them being closer to ability sets to pick up rather then holding a particular IC meaning..) and Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard.

I wonder if the people at White Wolf realize how incredibly arrogant they are?

Probably not. White Wolf's marketing is staffed by monkeys. But then, so is WotC's marketing (See: The Anti-MMO Ads for DnD)

[ColdBrew]

So FATAL is Gorgeous George's cable access show?

[Pirate_King]

I legitimately think DnD is a pretty bad system, frankly. Have done so /before/ I found White Wolf. That's why I jumped ship so quick. The primary problems have to do with the way classes end up being handled (I prefer them being closer to ability sets to pick up rather then holding a particular IC meaning..) and Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard.


Probably not. White Wolf's marketing is staffed by monkeys. But then, so is WotC's marketing (See: The Anti-MMO Ads for DnD)

Granted, but at least it's just your problem with the system and you don't consider yourself to be less of a nerd for playing WW instead of D&D. As for being awesome without being a mage, see epic skills. Really, the abilities of any class after level 5 are supposedly physically impossible. Spellcasting is just the easiest thing to meta-game.

And I don't mmo because I prefer live D&D (says the guy who's playing two different online PbP games...), though I can see the lameness of advertising that way. Any smear ads are kind of lame, really.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

White Wolf products seem to be a lot more fun to use when NOT used in LARP. Classless/leveless systems though, are by far the best there are will be as far as creativity is concerned. Such systems are not exactly good for one shots though.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I legitimately think DnD is a pretty bad system, frankly. Have done so /before/ I found White Wolf. That's why I jumped ship so quick. The primary problems have to do with the way classes end up being handled (I prefer them being closer to ability sets to pick up rather then holding a particular IC meaning..) and Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard.

In defense of D&D, at least as of 3e, only a few of the classes have specific IC meaning rather than being ability sets. The Wizard thing is a problem though, and point-based systems are by a wide margin more versatile (and in the case of M&M at least, more fun).

OWoD wasn't so much a bad system as it was poorly defined (especially across different product lines). NWoD looks a bit better, but it seems they took out most of the setting fluff I like. Scion (and I therefore assume Exalted) are just proof to me of why WoD-style systems shouldn't be used for combat-centric games. Tactically, it's quite dull, and there's only so many ways you can describe "I stab it" before you get bored. At least, that's the case for me.

WW's marketing staff, of course, deserves to be lined up and punched in the mouth.

[Xuincherguixe]

WW's marketing staff, of course, deserves to be lined up and punched in the mouth.

I think we have the basis for a one shot!

[The Faceless]

Okay, can get an analysis of Quantum Leap? It is like Futurama, but it was a little smart with all the science stuff like how he travels through time, but only in his own lifetime (until they broke that rule that one time).

Trinity? Smart semi believable science, rules are followed with rare exceptions, sci-fi setting, and they're both something of a cult classic. and they're both awesome.

[Faithdreamer]

You're all acting like saucy little brats. If you weren't twisting their words so much maybe it wouldn't seem so vicious. All it's really asking is... swap systems?

I never noticed anything like:

D&D Gamerz are stupid!
Elite pricks thenk they R bettarxSZ!

And when have you responsible mature players ever wanted to line someone up and punch them in the mouth?

Let it go and stop stoking the fire.

The TV comparisons are beyond me but I thought they were a bit humorous. What about all the systems you see in the store but no one players?

Things like Field of Glory..?

[Thinker]

The TV comparisons are beyond me but I thought they were a bit humorous. What about all the systems you see in the store but no one players?

Things like Field of Glory..?

I was trying to keep only with tv shows I've seen and games I've played. By all means, please write up something on Field of Glory.

[Bleen]

How about we just say most well-known RPG systems have terrible marketing staff, but DnD gets more of a (IMHO, undeserved) free pass from most people because it's old, well-known, and trusted and leave it at that?

[Tengu]

Yeah, let's get back to the hilarious comparing RPG systems to TV shows instead of bashing WW, because otherwise sooner or later someone will post that Exalted is a horrible system, his opinion based only on that horribly stupid promotional campaign, and I'll laugh my lungs out.

[Nerd-o-rama]

And when have you responsible mature players ever wanted to line someone up and punch them in the mouth?

Just to clarify, I feel this way not because I am personally offended, but because deeply incompetent people like the people responsible for that promotion annoy me on a professional level.

However, your general point is taken, and I will refrain from comparing RPG systems to each other in this thread.

[mikeejimbo]

Hey, I like GURPS, and my group still plays it. I also like White Wolf, but thought that that one ad was a bad move.

I wouldn't say D&D 3e is like Seinfeld, since I don't want to beat the hell out of every 3rd edition PC for being a jackass (except Kramer). Nor was 3e/3.5e a particularly long runner as far as RPGs go.

Frasier, maybe? Spun off of a wildly popular base, evolved into a distinct style that still kept some unnecessary holdovers. And again, had the network name going for it.

That would make 2e Cheers?