Swashbuckler?

[Kizara]

Anyone got a good swashbuckler fix? Or some links to remakes/threads concerning discussion about it?

I need to make it level better, and I have a couple ideas but would like to see what others have to say to help form my own thoughts.

[SamTheCleric]

I generally think that Swashbuckler is best with rogue levels and the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel. Best of both worlds

[Kizara]

I generally think that Swashbuckler is best with rogue levels and the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel. Best of both worlds

I'm not using the Complete Scoundrel and feel that much of its material is overpowered.

I'd like to hear ways of remaking or improving the actual swashbuckler class to make going swash 20 feasible and taking say 8, 12 etc levels of it decent. I understand 3 is the most opitimal choice, I'd just like 20 to not be a laughable one.

[Scaboroth]

First off, this isn't a suggestion for a fix, it's a suggestion for a replacement. If that isn't what you're looking for, apologies.
That being said, have you looked at "Arcana Unearthed" by Monte Cook? It's a pretty decent 3rd-party book, not published as a sourcebook so much as a replacement Player's Handbook. Anyway, there is a base class in there called "Unfettered" that I always thought was a superior take on the swashbuckler concept.

[TheOOB]

I'm not using the Complete Scoundrel and feel that much of its material is overpowered.

I'd like to hear ways of remaking or improving the actual swashbuckler class to make going swash 20 feasible and taking say 8, 12 etc levels of it decent. I understand 3 is the most opitimal choice, I'd just like 20 to not be a laughable one.

Overpowered compared to what? You can twink your swashbuckler rogue all you want, and a moderately well built core only wizard will still slaughter you.

Anyways, if you want to play a good swashbuckler, roll a warblade or swordsage, with the release of those classes, most other martial classes are more or less pointless.

[Jasdoif]

Well, what exactly is it that you like about the swashbuckler class when compared to a rogue?

[Kizara]

Overpowered compared to what? You can twink your swashbuckler rogue all you want, and a moderately well built core only wizard will still slaughter you.

Anyways, if you want to play a good swashbuckler, roll a warblade or swordsage, with the release of those classes, most other martial classes are more or less pointless.

1) Different problem with a different solution. I don't want to digress into my 15-odd pages of changes to the phb spells, and I'm trying to look for opinions and work people of done to improve the swashbuckler class.

2) I agree, and that's one of the reasons I don't use ToB ethier. The others being massive power creep, flavor and breaking too many precedents for my tolerance.

[Riffington]

Man, and I was just going to recommend giving him a few free maneuvers here and there (preferably from Setting Sun and Diamond Mind)...

[Kizara]

Ok, so since nobody has really added any material or referances of use, I went ahead and hashed-out my own remake. This is still rough, but please tell me what you think.

Note: I HIGHLY recomend that you open the class in Cwar as you look at this, or it will be very hard to follow.

-Gain Reflex as a good save.
-Gain Evasion at 2nd level.
-Gain Dodge at 4th level.
-Gain Mobility at 5th level.
-Gain Uncanny Dodge and Improved Initiative at 6th level.
-Gain Lucky (1/day) at level 9. Gain an additional use at 12th level and every 3 levels thereafter (15th, 18th).
-Gain Acrobatic Skill Mastery at 9th level, instead of as listed. Acrobatic Skill Mastery also grants +4 to Jump and Tumble checks.
-Gain Improved Uncanny Dodge at 10th level.
-Gain Spring Attack at 11th level.
-Gain Fast Movement (+10ft) at 12th level.
-Gain Insightful Defenses at 13th level, granting the ability to add their Int modifier to their AC.
-Weakening Critical deals an amount of Strength damage equal to the Swashbuckler’s Intelligence modifier.
-Gain Improved Evasion at 15th level.
-Gain Fast Movement (+20ft) at 18th level.
-Wounding Critical deals an amount of Constitution damage equal to the Swashbuckler’s Intelligence modifier.
-Gain Untouchable at 20th level: whenever you are attacked, you may use your Tumble skill check result in place of your AC.

[Talya]

Sounds like you're trying to balance it against core melee classes. (Or at least the fighter/monk, since barbarian can be decent.)

If that's the case, just give it a bonus feat at levels 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 20.

(Hey, your own solution works too. Although I prefer customizability, maybe take some of that away for a few bonus feats.) Remove the oversized penalty for fighting with a second rapier in your off hand.

[Kizara]

Sounds like you're trying to balance it against core melee classes. (Or at least the fighter/monk, since barbarian can be decent.)

If that's the case, just give it a bonus feat at levels 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 20.

I'm trying to balance it against Scout/Rogue/barb/fighter, yes.

Hmm, for some reason I didn't think of simple bonus feats. I think I'll re-work the granting of things like Dodge and such to be bonus feats with a small list, ala hexblade.

Thanks for the input.


Edit: Stupid ninja edits!!

[Jasdoif]

Instead of giving Mobility and Improved Initiative, I'd consider giving bonuses to the same thing, at a progression over time (say, +1 at 4th level, +2 at 8th, etc.). I guess the progression is just my attempt to avoid cherry-picking...but making it a similar bonus instead of the feat means that people who really want to boost those can take the feats too, and benefit from both.

[Kizara]

Instead of giving Mobility and Improved Initiative, I'd consider giving bonuses to the same thing, at a progression over time (say, +1 at 4th level, +2 at 8th, etc.). I guess the progression is just my attempt to avoid cherry-picking...but making it a similar bonus instead of the feat means that people who really want to boost those can take the feats too, and benefit from both.

Good ideas. I know I was disliking how little progressions there were in my remake.

Thanks, now to incorporate that with Tayla's bonus feats idea and this might just work out.

[Eldariel]

Swashbuckler really lacks a niché of its own. The dashing swordsman cake is already taken by Rogue (you can build it much to that effect) and the skilled weapon artist taken by Fighter. If you really mechanically want to push Swashbuckler levels to be worth taking, give him some stuff from duelist, like Elaborate Parry on later levels as a scaling ability, and provide him with some relevant damage increases so he will be able to deal damage on higher levels too (preferably, he wouldn't need to Power Attack as at least my image of a Swashbuckler is a guy with a one-handed weapon, not a THF).

Also, an extra attack or two when fighting with one weapon wouldn't hurt; he gets stuff that adds to each attack so if you want him one-handed fighting, give him enough attacks to make it worth his while. Something like Flurry of Blows with a one-handed melee weapon would be good. Finally, I'd give him a lot of Charisma-based abilities; it feels to fit the class image. Rewarding, but not requiring, some amount of Charisma and Int seems nice. Oh yeah, and bonuses to disarm checks.


No, I haven't seen anyone remake the class (other than the one over at Wizards; it had some great ideas, but required a lot of work with the DM. Can't find the link, but basically, it gave you bonuses for all sorts of theatrics you pull off at DM's concent so it doesn't get repetitive - basically, very much a skill-based class doing tons of Balancing, Tumbling, Jumping and so on for the stylish entrances et al.), mostly because with Daring Outlaw, it's enjoyable to play and most people don't like to fix what isn't broken. Remember that Sneak Attack is a good fit since it triggers off Feinting and that's a very strong characteristic of a Swashbuckler.


Also, do note that we aren't really talking about increasing the overall power with ToB and Complete Scoundrel, we're talking about evening out the power curve; since PHB basically robs all the Fighter-types and doesn't really support monkeys as well as it could either (outside Diplomacy and UMD), additional books are needed to balance it out. I find it amusing that the two books I find bringing most enjoyment to my games outside Core - skill tricks are such a marvelous addition as they don't take the center stage due to the limitation to their use and they offer tons of awesome maneuvers to spice sitiuation up at a small price, while also, Swift Hunter and Daring Outlaw completely saved two doomed classes in Ranger and Swashbuckler; ToB just...remakes the melee experience entirely - are ones you're shunning. Of course, it's all your choice. If you find those books aren't fun, I guess you shouldn't use them, but I don't really see what part of them is unfun or more powerful than the used powerlevel of Core.

[The_Snark]

I've always liked giving them a version of the Riposte feature from this web enhancement; it really seems to fit the duelist-feel that swashbucklers are going for.

Giving it to them a level later than the scout would get it (starting at level 2, then increasing +1 AC at 4th, 8th, etc and +1d6 damage at 6th, 10th, etc) is probably workable, or you could delay the progression so that it doesn't start until level 4 (giving an immediate reason to go beyond the 3-level dip).

I also rather like your Int to AC bit, though. Perhaps add something to do with feinting? An invisible blade-like ability to feint first as a move action and then as a swift action at higher levels?

[Ponce]

Give him the Pounce ability or something that allows attacks during movement. I picture the Swashbuckler jabbing and parrying his way down the corridor nonstop, then leaping off the balcony. Similar to the Dervish, but eh. Just offer it at a higher level, say 11 or something, to keep it from simply being a dip class.

I don't favor capstone abilities at level 20, since the game tends to break down at that level anyway, people rarely reach it. Maybe place it at 10 or 15. Also, get rid of that "Grace" ability and just give him a good reflex save progression. I don't know what they were trying to accomplish with that.

Try to combine aspects of the Dervish and the Duelist into the swashbuckler. They all try to do the same thing.

[Icewalker]

Well I'm just making my own sailor class to mesh with my ship to ship combat system...


Which book is Swashbuckler in? Complete Scoundrel?

[sonofzeal]

I'm really not sure what you're looking for. You say they're too weak, but they're generally better than fighters, and can probably outperform most Rogue builds in a straight fight. The only reason Ranger or Paladin would have an edge over them is because of the spellcasting they get; as a martial class my money's on Swashbuckler.

Point is, they're not horribly underpowered compared to traditional melee options. They ARE horribly underpowered compared to full spellcasters, but then you reject Complete Scoundrel and Tome of Battle as.... overpowered? So you want to overpower your Swashbuckler without overpowering him? I'm not really getting this concept here.

From levels 1-6, Swashbuckler is fine (although I'd replace Grace with Good Reflex), and can keep pace with just about anyone if played well. From levels 7-12, a Daring Outlaw build is necessary to keep up with those exponentially-progressing casters. From levels 13-20, Tome of Battle is your best bet at warding off obsolescence.

[Jasdoif]

Which book is Swashbuckler in? Complete Scoundrel?

Complete Warrior.

[Kizara]

First off, I thank everyone for sharing their input, suggestions and views on the matter. I don't agree with some of them, but instead of arguing I am going to post my second take at a remake. Tell me what you think.

-Reduce HD to d8.
-Gain Reflex as a good save.
-Remove Grace and Dodge progression.
-Gain Evasion at 2nd level.
-Gain a Bonus Feat (to select from the below list) at 4th, 6th, 11th, and 16th level.
-Gain Swiftness at 5th level, granting a +1 bonus to Initiative. Gain an additional +1 at 10th level and every 5 levels (15th, 20th).
-Gain Uncanny Dodge at 6th level.
-Gain Lucky (1/day) at level 9. Gain an additional use at 12th level and every 3 levels thereafter (15th, 18th).
-Gain Acrobatic Skill Mastery at 9th level, instead of as listed. Acrobatic Skill Mastery also grants +4 to Jump and Tumble checks (or Acrobatics checks).
-Gain Improved Uncanny Dodge at 10th level.
-Gain Insightful Defences at 13th level, granting the ability to add their Int modifier to their AC as a Dodge bonus.
-Weakening Critical deals an amount of Strength damage equal to the Swashbuckler’s Intelligence modifier.
-Gain Improved Evasion at 15th level.
-Wounding Critical deals an amount of Constitution damage equal to the Swashbuckler’s Intelligence modifier.
-Gain Untouchable at 20th level: whenever you are attacked, you may use your Tumble skill check result in place of your AC. You may also add your Int modifier in lieu of your Dex to all your Tumble checks.
-Gain Appraise, Disable Device, Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (local), Sleight of Hand and Spot as class skills.


Swashbuckler Bonus Feat list:
(PHB)Alertness, Agile, Acrobatic, Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Combat Reflexes, Deft Hands, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Endurance, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical, Lightning Reflexes, Negotiator, Quick Draw, Run, Skill Focus (any class skill), Weapon Focus (any finessable weapon).
(Cwar) Dash, Defensive Strike, Eyes in the Back of Your Head, Flick of the Wrist.
(Cadv) Combat Intuition, Danger Sense, Deft Opportunist, Dive for Cover, Improved Diversion, Improved Swimming, Quick Reconnoiter.

[Draz74]

I've always liked giving them a version of the Riposte feature from this web enhancement; it really seems to fit the duelist-feel that swashbucklers are going for.

I was going to suggest this as well.

I also rather like your Int to AC bit, though. Perhaps add something to do with feinting? An invisible blade-like ability to feint first as a move action and then as a swift action at higher levels?

Or, even if not feinting (which is a good possibility, although just giving it as a move/swift/free action is pretty boring and monotonous), there needs to be something Charisma-related on a Swashbuckler.

Personally, I'd do this (if I were trying to restrain myself from re-writing the whole system, instead more along the lines of what you seem to have been aiming for):

Reduce Hit Die to d8
Change good save to Reflex instead of Fort
Add to skill list: Intimidate, Gather Information, Disguise, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Perform

Level 1: Weapon Finesse, Canny Defense
Level 2: Uncanny Dodge
Level 3: Riposte +1d6
Level 4: Acrobatic Charge
Level 5: Bonus Feat
Level 6: Deceptive Movement
Level 7: Riposte +2d6
Level 8: Evasion
Level 9: Bonus Feat
Level 10: Lucky 1/day
Level 11: Riposte +3d6
Level 12: Weakening Critical
Level 13: Bonus Feat
Level 14: Lucky 2/day
Level 15: Riposte +4d6
Level 16: Scathing Insult
Level 17: Bonus Feat
Level 18: Wounding Critical
Level 19: Riposte +5d6
Level 20: Lucky 3/day

Canny Defense: While not using medium armor, heavy armor, or shield, add +INT to AC. While not using medium armor, heavy armor, or shield, and fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise, add half your Swashbuckler level to AC.

Riposte: Precision damage that applies when you are using Finessed attacks. You must also meet one of the following conditions:

• You are making an Attack of Opportunity
• You have successfully feinted against that opponent this turn

Bonus Feat: Choose from the following.
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Improved Disarm, Acrobatic, Agile, Two-Weapon Defense (TWF not required), Persuasive, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Einhander.
After Level 10, you can also choose your bonus feats from the following Rogue special abilities:
Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind, Skill Mastery (acrobatic skills)

Deceptive Movement: Anytime you move into a position that gives you a spatial advantage to your attack roll (e.g. move into a flanking position, or move into a position where you gain a +1 attack roll for being on higher ground), you may attempt to Feint as a free action. Hopefully this will give the Swashbuckler good motivation to have a mobile fighting style.

Scathing Insult: If you demoralize your opponent with an Intimidate check, and you have previously dealt damage to that opponent in that encounter, he remains Shaken for the rest of the encounter. This condition does not stack with other Fear conditions. As long as he is Shaken, you may deal Riposte damage to him with every finessed attack you hit him with.

... It's rough, but it should give you some ideas. Still needs a good capstone (but your Tumble As AC variant is too strong IMHO). Also may have lost some Intelligence synergy.

[Jasdoif]

-Gain Innate Resistance: SR 2 + class level. If you have SR from any other permanent source (racially), improve that progression by 2.

Two plus class level? That means a caster of equal level with any bonus to its caster level automatically overcomes it (and even without, it's a 95% chance of success). It's too weak to be worth writing down.

[Kizara]

Two plus class level? That means a caster of equal level with any bonus to its caster level automatically overcomes it (and even without, it's a 95% chance of success). It's too weak to be worth writing down.

That's relivant to something else, and I didn't mean to post it. Sorry, I'll edit it out.

[Talya]

I wouldn't cut the hit die size or take away the good fort save, no matter what.

[Kizara]

I was going to suggest this as well.



Or, even if not feinting (which is a good possibility, although just giving it as a move/swift/free action is pretty boring and monotonous), there needs to be something Charisma-related on a Swashbuckler.

Personally, I'd do this (if I were trying to restrain myself from re-writing the whole system, instead more along the lines of what you seem to have been aiming for):

Reduce Hit Die to d8
Change good save to Reflex instead of Fort
Add to skill list: Intimidate, Gather Information, Disguise, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Perform

Level 1: Weapon Finesse, Canny Defense
Level 2: Uncanny Dodge
Level 3: Riposte +1d6
Level 4: Acrobatic Charge
Level 5: Bonus Feat
Level 6: Deceptive Movement
Level 7: Riposte +2d6
Level 8: Evasion
Level 9: Bonus Feat
Level 10: Lucky 1/day
Level 11: Riposte +3d6
Level 12: Weakening Critical
Level 13: Bonus Feat
Level 14: Lucky 2/day
Level 15: Riposte +4d6
Level 16: Scathing Insult
Level 17: Bonus Feat
Level 18: Wounding Critical
Level 19: Riposte +5d6
Level 20: Lucky 3/day

Canny Defense: While not using medium armor, heavy armor, or shield, add +INT to AC. While not using medium armor, heavy armor, or shield, and fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise, add half your Swashbuckler level to AC.

Riposte: Precision damage that applies when you are using Finessed attacks. You must also meet one of the following conditions:

• You are making an Attack of Opportunity
• You have successfully feinted against that opponent this turn

Bonus Feat: Choose from the following.
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Improved Disarm, Acrobatic, Agile, Two-Weapon Defense (TWF not required), Persuasive, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Einhander.
After Level 10, you can also choose your bonus feats from the following Rogue special abilities:
Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind, Skill Mastery (acrobatic skills)

Deceptive Movement: Anytime you move into a position that gives you a spatial advantage to your attack roll (e.g. move into a flanking position, or move into a position where you gain a +1 attack roll for being on higher ground), you may attempt to Feint as a free action. Hopefully this will give the Swashbuckler good motivation to have a mobile fighting style.

Scathing Insult: If you demoralize your opponent with an Intimidate check, and you have previously dealt damage to that opponent in that encounter, he remains Shaken for the rest of the encounter. This condition does not stack with other Fear conditions. As long as he is Shaken, you may deal Riposte damage to him with every finessed attack you hit him with.

... It's rough, but it should give you some ideas. Still needs a good capstone (but your Tumble As AC variant is too strong IMHO). Also may have lost some Intelligence synergy.

Your take is pretty nice, the frontloaded aspect of Canny Defense and early uncanny dodge being the main problems I have with it.

As for the tumble-as-AC capstone, think about this:

23 ranks in tumble is +10 Int mod+ 10 roll = 43 AC. At level 20? That's decent.
It's also 43 TOUCH AC, which is pretty great even at those levels.

[Jasdoif]

That's relivant to something else, and I didn't mean to post it. Sorry, I'll edit it out.

OK.

Anyway, it was a bit hard to follow your proposal without a table so...I made a table

Spoiler

Show

{table=head]LEVEL|BAB|Fort|Reflex|Will|
1|+1|+2|+2|0|Weapon Finesse
2|+2|+3|+3|0|Evasion
3|+3|+3|+3|+1|Insightful Strike
4|+4|+4|+4|+1|Bonus Feat
5|+5|+4|+4|+1|Swiftness +1
6|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|Bonus Feat, Uncanny Dodge
7|+7/+2|+5|+5|+2|Acrobatic Charge
8|+8/+3|+6|+6|+2|Improved Flanking
9|+9/+4|+6|+6|+3|Lucky 1/day, Acrobatic Skill Mastery
10|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|Swiftness +2
11|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+3|Bonus Feat
12|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+4|Lucky 2/day
13|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+4|Insightful Defense
14|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+4|Weakening Critical
15|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+5|Swiftness +3, Lucky 3/day, Improved Evasion
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Bonus Feat
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+5|Slippery Mind
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+6|Lucky 4/day
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+6|Wounding Critical
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+6|Swiftness +4, Untouchable[/table]

[Kizara]

OK.

Anyway, it was a bit hard to follow your proposal without a table so...I made a table
{table=head]LEVEL|BAB|Fort|Reflex|Will|
1|+1|+2|+2|0|Weapon Finesse
2|+2|+3|+3|0|Evasion
3|+3|+3|+3|+1|Insightful Strike
4|+4|+4|+4|+1|Bonus Feat
5|+5|+4|+4|+1|Swiftness +1
6|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|Bonus Feat, Uncanny Dodge
7|+7/+2|+5|+5|+2|Acrobatic Charge
8|+8/+3|+6|+6|+2|Improved Flanking
9|+9/+4|+6|+6|+3|Lucky 1/day, Acrobatic Skill Mastery
10|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|Swiftness +2
11|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+3|Bonus Feat
12|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+4|Lucky 2/day
13|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+4|Insightful Defense
14|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+4|Weakening Critical
15|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+5|Swiftness +3, Lucky 3/day, Improved Evasion
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Bonus Feat
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+5|Slippery Mind
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+6|Lucky 4/day
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+6|Wounding Critical
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+6|Swiftness +4, Untouchable[/table]

Thank you very much.

[Solo]

I'm not using the Complete Scoundrel and feel that much of its material is overpowered.

Come now. You say that about everything.

[Kizara]

Come now. You say that about everything.

:) I happen to think a great deal of the latter-half of 3.5 material is overpowered, inconsistant with previous precendents or generally unsuitable.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

:) I happen to think a great deal of the latter-half of 3.5 material is overpowered, inconsistant with previous precendents or generally unsuitable.

And yet you come on here asking for a fix for an underpowered class. Despite ignoring the WotC splatbook dedicated exclusively to that type of character. The book that help make it closer to normally powered. Are you trying to create a problem for yourself and a way to complain about WotC?