Some Monk Efficiency

[graymachine]

I'm thinking that I may need to build a new character soon and I've already promised the DM it would be a monk, so I'm turning ideas for builds around in my head. I have 10 levels to work with and I was thinking about a Monk/Wizard into Enlightened Fist, which seems good to me after a glance. The other thought I have is a Monk in an alternating combo of Dervish and Kensai, although I'm not really sure how practical that is; any thoughts/assessments? Pointing to better monk builds?

[MeklorIlavator]

I think that the psionic fist(that's the SRD name, its different in the book) is better, but even that compares unfavorably to the psionic warrior. Really, there aren't many decent monk builds, and those usually rely on outside spellcasting. Just for info's sake, what are the other players going to make? What is the average power level of their builds?

[DMfromTheAbyss]

The best levels to take for monk are the first three. You get most of your basic prerequisite monk fighting abilities and only lose 1 BAB. I'd also suggest taking the minimum levels in both wizard and monk to make your requirements. So you can have more levels of enlightened fist...

Also suggest you take a good look at spells of the touch variety, some of them have duration/multiple hits which can stack nicely with flurry of blows.

[GammaPaladin]

The usual tactic is to take every little thing that can boost your unarmed damage... Going Warforged with a Battlefist is always a good start.

[graymachine]

I think that the psionic fist(that's the SRD name, its different in the book) is better, but even that compares unfavorably to the psionic warrior. Really, there aren't many decent monk builds, and those usually rely on outside spellcasting. Just for info's sake, what are the other players going to make? What is the average power level of their builds?

Well, the game is already running, the party is averaging 8th level with a swashbuckler, an abjurant champion, a warblade, a wizard rogue, a druid, and a bard. I'm currently running a warlock; I'm simply exploring the ideas to make a monk work as I'm expecting by the time we hit party level 10 my current character will have a good chance of having completed his goals or being dead. As for the psionics, I avoid them in D&D; they just rub me the wrong way. Is there anything out of ToB that could work well with a Monk? I can't think of any styles in it that work off of weapons monks specialize in.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm thinking that I may need to build a new character soon and I've already promised the DM it would be a monk, so I'm turning ideas for builds around in my head. I have 10 levels to work with and I was thinking about a Monk/Wizard into Enlightened Fist, which seems good to me after a glance. The other thought I have is a Monk in an alternating combo of Dervish and Kensai, although I'm not really sure how practical that is; any thoughts/assessments? Pointing to better monk builds?

First: I will add Magic items help alot.

1) Monk's Belt: +5 Monk Level for AC, unarmed, extra stunning fist
2) Guantlet of the Talon: Increases Monk Level by 5 (stacks with belt) for similar stuff. Also lets you unarm as slashing. You need a Divine caster or True Believer feat while worshiping Bahamut.

This means with these two not that expensive items: You have +10 Monk Level for unarm damage/AC.

One Build you could try:
Monk 9/Conjurer Wizard 6 (with Abrupt Jaunt class feature instead of familiar)/Swiftblade 5
(I used this to emulate Rock Lee). With INA feat, I have unarmed of 3d8. BAB 13 or so, but haste and other spells help as buffs.
Swift Surge adds +1 to hit/Dodge/Reflex. And +1d6 damage when move 10 feet.
You get 50% miss chance always on. You can always Arcane Strike feat to burn spells for attack bonus.
If you can afford Use Magic Device Ranks: Divine power is a awesome scroll.


Another Build:
Another one: Goku (After/During fight with Vegata in first Season of DBZ)
Monk 9/Warlock 3/Lv 6 Green Star Adept/Level 2 Enlighten Fist
You could in theory get Unarmed damage 21st level Monk: If you believed in Bahamut and use Guantlet of the Talon (I didn't for this one).
Unarmed Damage 3d8 (As if 16th Monk) with INA feat.
DR 6/Adamantine/Star Rigor: +2 Str/NA but -1 Dex. 50% Fortification.
DR 1/Cold Iron. 3 Lesser Invocations (Up to you). I suggest See the Unseen (Seeing invisible is good).
Eldritch Blast: 4d6 damage, just a little extra. Bracers of armor are useful.

Note: You need to shift Alignment from Lawful to Choatic (or evil, your choice) to become a Warlock.

Enlightened First improved Monk AC/Fist as well giving that ability to give up a stun attempt for +1d6 elecritc/Fire damage for 1 round.

Really, Level 5 Green Star Adept is the farthest you should go:
a. Losing Con is bad.
b. You lose alot from taking the class cxompared to benefits.

Cool Note:
Since you have 2 DRs (you usually use best in a situation), even if they use Adamantine weapons you still have DR 1, but if they use Cold Iron you have DR 5
If they use neither you have DR 5.

[MeklorIlavator]

If you can use ToB, see if you can make an unarmed style swordsage focusing on setting sun, diamond mind, and shadow hand. The unarmed variant looses the ability to wear armor in return for a unarmed strike damage, but if your DM doesn't allow it, then just use the normal swordsage+ the unarmed strike feat in the book. Shadow Sun Ninja is also a possibility, but it doesn't always fit.

[Wraithy]

If you want to use monk and wizard, try the kung fu genius feat from dragon magazine, it changes all of your wis dependent abilities as a monk into int based.

[TempusCCK]

Also, be sure to pick up the feat from the PHB II that lets you treat your unarmed strike as piercing bludgeoning or slashing weapons. Suck it DR!

[SurlySeraph]

You may want to consider using my build for an Enlightened Fist.

Don't use the same stats, though; those were randomly generated. Have about 15-16 INT, decent CON (you'll need to make a lot of Concentration checks), and high DEX or STR (choose one, but don't completely dump the other; if you go with high DEX, take Weapon Finesse).

Monk 1/ Wizard 4/ Enlightened Fist 5. Instead of taking Kung Fu Genius, take Carmendine Monk from Champions of Valor; it also lets you use INT in place of WIS, but it also lets you get little boosts on your Monk abilities by taking an hour to study.

Focus on touch-range spells, to get the full use out of the Arcane Fist ability. I highly recommend Chill Touch, since it applies to more than one attack. Bestow Curse, Touch of Idiocy, and the like are all good. Blood Wind, which lets you make unarmed attacks at range, is also useful to have.

[graymachine]

Yeah, I'm seeing how the Enlightened Fist route works; anyone think Monk into a few levels of Dervish and then into Kensai could work?

[Draz74]

Is there anything out of ToB that could work well with a Monk? I can't think of any styles in it that work off of weapons monks specialize in.

Setting Sun does. It's the Monk style. (Although as someone else said, if you want to make a monk out of the Swordsage class, you'll probably want to also mix in some combination of Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, and Stone Dragon.)

[Eldariel]

Unarmed Swordsage is effectively Monk with a different name (and one that doesn't functionally suck) - toss in one level of Monk into 10 levels of Shadow Sun Ninja and you have full Flurry to boot. Also, Tashatalora-feat (Secrets of Sarlona) basically makes any Psionic class into a Monk-class. You don't even need any Monk-levels to use it, although having 1-2 helps. But really, if I were to go with a Magical Monk, I'd make a Tashalatora-based manifester. Illithid Slayer and Ardent are good candidates for a Tashalatora-character, although basically any manifester can work out. Some amount of BAB would be nice though, hence my preference for the Slayer.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

First: I will add Magic items help alot.

1) Monk's Belt: +5 Monk Level for AC, unarmed, extra stunning fist
2) Guantlet of the Talon: Increases Monk Level by 5 (stacks with belt) for similar stuff. Also lets you unarm as slashing. You need a Divine caster or True Believer feat while worshiping Bahamut.

Or up the feat from ToB that gives you a +4 to your Monk level for unarmed damage and INA to make a medium-sized monk deal 4d8 damage at level 11 without having to worship Bahumet.

[Signmaker]

Or up the feat from ToB that gives you a +4 to your Monk level for unarmed damage and INA to make a medium-sized monk deal 4d8 damage at level 11 without having to worship Bahumet.

That would be Superior Unarmed Strike.

[Gralamin]

Monk 3/Psionic Warrior 17
Important Feats: Monastic Training (Psionic Warrior), Tashalatora (from Secrets of Sarlona)

This allows you to stack your monk and Psionic Warrior levels for your AC bonus, flurry of blows, and unarmed damage.

You lose:
Random Monk abilities

You gain:
Psionic Warrior Powers, Bonus feats, Hit Die, etc.

[MeklorIlavator]

I believe that the OP has stated that he prefers that no psionics be used, as he dislikes them in the DnD context, so perhaps we shouldn't suggest more builds that use them.

[Ryusacerdos]

I like Sacred Fist more than Enlightened Fist because you can stack wisdom to improve both your spell DC's and AC, but mostly because of access to Divine Power.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

One other thing is that you need to advance a monks base damage once it passes epic. Right now it doesn't, which is pretty bad as you should have an effective level of 21 at level 12. I would suggest 2d10 until you hit level 24, then 4d6 until 28, then continue the progression from there (the formula is basic). That should keep your melee capable, without actually overpowering it.

[Eldariel]

Sacred Fist's main selling point is the full BAB progression, something Monks hurt for. That makes up for the lack of flurry progression, although the fact that Divine Power would get you full BAB anyways makes it a bit more painful than it should necessarily be.

[Gralamin]

I believe that the OP has stated that he prefers that no psionics be used, as he dislikes them in the DnD context, so perhaps we shouldn't suggest more builds that use them.

Ah Sorry, I missed that.

[MeklorIlavator]

Ah Sorry, I missed that.

It wasn't just you, there have been a couple mentions of psionic solutions, and the OP's non-psionic bent is only really supplied in a wall of text, so I thought I'd bring attention to it.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm thinking that I may need to build a new character soon and I've already promised the DM it would be a monk, so I'm turning ideas for builds around in my head.

Monk 1 / Druid 9 is pretty good.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Keep in mind, there are FOUR different styles in ToB which have a preferred weapon: Unarmed. Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and Shadow Hand.

A liberal mix of these four, plus some Diamond Mind thrown in for good times, will give you all the fun cinimatic abilities of your classic Wire-Fu b-rated kung fu movies without really being overpowered.

Want to shatter walls? Stone Dragon has what you need. Throwing people ten times your size around like nothing? Setting Sun. Flying Fists of Fury? That would be Tiger Claw. Silent and unseen until the deadly strike? That would be Shadow Hand. Mental prowess and meditation to produce incredible effects? That's Diamond Mind.

All can be done completly unarmed. Just grab the unarmed variant Swordsage, Improved Natural Attack, and Circle Kick.

[MeklorIlavator]

Also remember that the favored weapon thing has very little mechanical impact. I think there is one class ability(swordsage, gives weapon focus to all weapons of that discipline) and something like 2 feats(blade meditation and shadow blade) that work off the preferred weapon lists.

[Talic]

My personal Preference:

Monk 2/Wizard 1 (focused transmuter)/Other stuff, like fighter

You get good boost spells from transmuter (+30 speed, or boost to strength (Fist of Stone), or Size (Enlarge), and other good abilities). You'll have shield or mage armor if you want it, and, with Practiced spellcaster, Mage Armor will last 5 hours at a time. Now, you have a good buff system, and can go for ways to optimize THAT.

[MeklorIlavator]

My personal Preference:

Monk 2/Wizard 1 (focused transmuter)/Other stuff, like fighter

You get good boost spells from transmuter (+30 speed, or boost to strength (Fist of Stone), or Size (Enlarge), and other good abilities). You'll have shield or mage armor if you want it, and, with Practiced spellcaster, Mage Armor will last 5 hours at a time. Now, you have a good buff system, and can go for ways to optimize THAT.

Go abjurant Champion, and your caster level will equal your BaB, plus give a couple other nice benefits(free quickens on your abjurations.)

[MammonAzrael]

I was thinking of making a monk from a Feral Goliath in an upcoming game. Maybe VoP too. Grappling fun.

And the Gauntlets of the Talon do NOT stack with Monk's Belt or similar effects (states that in the description). Don't forget the Gauntlets also give you two natural claw attacks.

But for sheer power, yeah, Unarmed Swordsage is probably a better bet.

[dman11235]

Hmm, well, there are a lot of different paths you can choose. I can get you 32d8 unarmed damage by level 20 if you wanted (provided an arcanist in the party), very close to full spell casting (16 levels) with a sorcerer/monk (my prefered choice for Enlightened Fist) with 16d8 unarmed damage I believe (haven't checked it in a while), near full psionics (alas no psionics...), a really angry bear that's nigh impossible to kill, the list goes on. At level 10 the bear warrior build is a very nice place to start (really after level 6 though), and the Enlightened Fist has fully recovered from sucking at low levels. And the unarmed damage optimization guy is well on his way to getting there. Go ahead, pick one

EDIT: Oh, and do NOT take Improved Natural Attack. 'Tis a trap feat. At least, unless you can't have magic items or don't have an arcanist in our group. The Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) actually gives you the feat and deals con damage on a crit with unarmed strikes.

[Starbuck_II]

I was thinking of making a monk from a Feral Goliath in an upcoming game. Maybe VoP too. Grappling fun.

And the Gauntlets of the Talon do NOT stack with Monk's Belt or similar effects (states that in the description). Don't forget the Gauntlets also give you two natural claw attacks.

But for sheer power, yeah, Unarmed Swordsage is probably a better bet.

Page 97 of Complete Divine disagrees. It says it stacks with Monk Belt. Do you have a page number of what you are talking about?