Persistent Time Stop?!?!?

[MorkaisChosen]

Firstly- yes, it is possible. A Bard 10/Sublime Chord 9 with Metamagic Song can use 6 Bardic Music uses to add Persist Spell to any spell- including one of 9th level.

The question is- Persistent Time Stop? 24 hours of free time? Is it really allowed, and what are the consequences?

The first consequence I can see is this.

Persistent Time Stop. Cast a few Extended hour/level buffs (38-hour durations). Rest. Cast Persistent Time Stop again.

See where I'm going here?

[Kurald Galain]

Is it really allowed, and what are the consequences?

No, it isn't.

[MorkaisChosen]

Care to elaborate on that one?

[Eclipse]

A couple things I can think of.

First off, the duration is 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Therefore, it could be ruled that the actual duration of the spell is instantaneous, rendering persistent spell useless. This would be my ruling, mostly to keep the game sane. I could be wrong on this though.

Alternatively, DM fiat is possible, because it's no fun for everyone else if you're the only one to do anything for "days" at a time.

However, if you do sneak this past your dm, I can think of a few consequences.

One, you'll be crazy powerful.

However, every persistent time stop you cast will age you by one day.

Roleplaying-wise, it would be completely feasible to rule that you become detached from reality if you use it too much, though I wouldn't give that a mechanical effect, and would likely try to work something out with the player for appropriate detachment. Spending a whole day in a non-interactive world would be kind of maddening to me, I think. This is, of course, left to taste and campaign flavor, not actual rules.

That's what comes to mind immediately.

Also, if you want an alternative method, assuming the DM doesn't rule it impossible, a cleric with Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell and the trickery domain will cut it too. Perhaps one extra turning feat.

[Inyssius Tor]

Clarification: no, and time stop specifically doesn't work that way. You can't Persist it anymore than you can Persist a fireball.

(Although if there is a way to Persist a fireball, it would work for time stop too.)

EDIT--Further clarification: this is because time stop is, in fact, instantaneous as far as metamagic is concerned.

[Rad]

I agree with the general consensus: Time Stop is actually an istantaneous spell and thus not persistable. Treat that as an error in the rules.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Firstly- yes, it is possible. A Bard 10/Sublime Chord 9 with Metamagic Song can use 6 Bardic Music uses to add Persist Spell to any spell- including one of 9th level.

We all know it's possible. You could also do it with:

DMM Persist Cleric with Time Domain/Incantatrix/Animamage.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Ah, but that's why we use Temporal Acceleration. Sure, if your DM doesn't allow Persistent Power as a feat (a bad idea with psionics), it takes 57610 power points, to augment and extend enough to break even (ie. rest and regain PP), but, once you've done that, you've started your infinite loop. Time to start manifesting quintessence, people ...

[Tokiko Mima]

WotC errata'ed this a while back. Time Stop is considered instantaneous from a spell effect standpoint, it's only its effects on you that last 1d4+1 rounds. You can't Persist it anymore than you could Extend a magic missile, or Persist a True Strike. The spells simply don't work that way.

This is probably a good thing, though. Time Stop doesn't stop time, it merely speeds up the user to the point where everyone else seems frozen. Now, conseratively speaking if a normal Time Stop compressed it's actions into .1 seconds (a factor of 210 times normal speed) then a Persistant Time Stop would last for 6 months, 26 days, 23 hours, 33 minutes and 23 seconds.

Edit: Hmm... I thought they had errata'ed this. I guess not. In any case, it's still not a good idea to do unless you're an Elan or something.

[MorkaisChosen]

Oh, good- I didn't know about the errata, and the SRD rules say "Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time)," I think.

Thanks be to Wizards saying it's not allowed.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

There was no errata. Time stop still maintains it's 1d4+1 Apparent time designator.

No errata.

[Thinker]

It was a FAQ entry, which while it has intents of rules and good rulings from a DM standpoint are not RAW. By RAW yes you could do this. I would not find it particularly fun.

[Burley]

I'd allow something like this, just to mess with the head of the player who tries it. I'm a fan of: Go ahead and do it. But if you can, so can I.

~Side Note: I've been planning for an adventure where the players retrieve an item (Persistant Meta-Magic Rod) so he can use Time Stop for days at a time. His intentions are to allow his lots of time for Item Creation for the players, with discount for retrieving the item. But, there's a problem and the whole world (Material Plane), sans the one wizard, the players and the wizard's sanctum, are frozen in time. The players will have to travel to a Plane where time passes twice as fast as in the Material Plane, and find a way to merge the two planes.~

[Chronos]

Personally, I wouldn't allow any sort of discount metamagic reducers to work on 9th-level spells in the first place, but if I did allow those, I'd also allow persisted time stop. But if you actually tried it, you probably wouldn't be happy with the results, since you'd probably die of starvation (or old age, if you had means of feeding yourself) before the duration ran out.

[MorkaisChosen]

I like it! You would expect "infinite downtime" to break the universe...

[Roderick_BR]

If it's allowed, remember that the character is getting old on normal time, but *his* normal time.

Fighter: "Hey, did the wizard suddenly grow older a couple years the past week, since he started that 'temporal manipulation experiment' of his?"
Cleric: "Uh... looks like it... at least now he has the long white beard he wanted for so long."

[Collin152]

Fighter: "Hey, did the wizard suddenly grow older a couple years the past week, since he started that 'temporal manipulation experiment' of his?"
Cleric: "Uh... looks like it... at least now he has the long white beard he wanted for so long."

"A mustache you say... Well, two weeks down, only 14 Billion more years to go."

[Jack_Simth]

Personally, I wouldn't allow any sort of discount metamagic reducers to work on 9th-level spells in the first place, but if I did allow those, I'd also allow persisted time stop. But if you actually tried it, you probably wouldn't be happy with the results, since you'd probably die of starvation (or old age, if you had means of feeding yourself) before the duration ran out.

An Elan takes care of both problems simultaneously.

1) They have no maximum age.
2) Their repletion ability covers the food issue off just their racial power point pool.

A Warforged can do similar....

[Nohwl]

i would say it works, and slows down time for one day of apparent time instead of a couple rounds.

the only problem i see with it is you speed up so everyone else looks like they arent moving. there would have to be a conversion rate from real time to the timestop time.

[Heliomance]

Except if it slows down time for one day of apparent time, that's incredibly, disgustingly borked and broken. Besides, Wizards has stated outright tha it doesn't work.

[Douglas]

I don't remember who posted it, but someone suggested this interpretation a recent time this idea came up on these boards: sure, your Time Stop lasts 24 hours - but that's its real duration. The apparent duration is unaffected. Have fun with your 1d4+1 rounds while everyone else gets a whole day.

[Nohwl]

have their spells be effected by the timestop too. if it was a normal timestop(not persisted), everything would happen in one real round, and then all of the effects of spells would happen at once and continue on in their normal duration.(all the casting would be done in the apparent rounds, people would see it as a bunch of spells being cast at once) since timestop is persisted, the spells would all be cast, and then they would go away faster because they arent returning to normal time. if they cast something that has a duration of rounds, it would be based off of the timestop rounds.

an example, you are a level 20 something that can do this. it doesnt matter. you cast acid fog(or anything with duration in rounds) in a persisted timestop. it takes effect after everyone else gets a turn (ill say the conversion is 5 of your rounds equals one of theirs). the acid fog appears, and the rounds for its duration start. five of your rounds pass and acid fog loses 5 founds for its duration. you roll for one round of damage. they get their turn and it continues like that.

you cant attack things directly, and you cant hit them with spells directly. any spell that targets an area has its effectiveness greatly reduced, so you are not left with much to work with.

[Mewtarthio]

An Elan takes care of both problems simultaneously.

1) They have no maximum age.
2) Their repletion ability covers the food issue off just their racial power point pool.

A Warforged can do similar....

Yes, but you're spending eons of apparent time unable to interact with any other creatures, nor to affect the outside world in any way. You'd be bound to go insane eventually.

Or you could just get killed by Phanes.

[Ascension]

Yes, but you're spending eons of apparent time unable to interact with any other creatures, nor to affect the outside world in any way. You'd be bound to go insane eventually.

That'd kinda be a cool BBEG. He's an Elan/Warforged/some other immortal who's been using this trick for decades to get millennia worth of time, and has gone quite mad with the power. He has been spending all of this time building a massive army of constructs, which, when unleashed upon the world, will spell its certain doom. None of them will activate, however, until he comes back into real time. The PCs need to find and utilize some sort of phlebotonium to pierce his time bubble/speed up to his level/neutralize time stop (however it's supposed to work) and defeat him before he comes out of the time bubble and awakens his legions of doom. The entire epic battle would take place in only a fraction of a second real time.

[Nohwl]

besides buffing/summoning/area of effect spells, what else is timestop used for?

[FlyMolo]

That'd kinda be a cool BBEG. He's an Elan/Warforged/some other immortal who's been using this trick for decades to get millennia worth of time, and has gone quite mad with the power. He has been spending all of this time building a massive army of constructs, which, when unleashed upon the world, will spell its certain doom. None of them will activate, however, until he comes back into real time. The PCs need to find and utilize some sort of phlebotonium to pierce his time bubble/speed up to his level/neutralize time stop (however it's supposed to work) and defeat him before he comes out of the time bubble and awakens his legions of doom. The entire epic battle would take place in only a fraction of a second real time.

Actually, problem. The players could hunt the BBEG, but as soon as they get inside, he casts Persistent Time Stop, and spends the time the players use to cross the room to gain ultimate power in his bubble. So the players are much stronger than he is, until he hits that caster button. Then the players charge through and deal with a rapidly pumped BBEG. He could conceivably just wall the players up, though.

[ZekeArgo]

Actually, problem. The players could hunt the BBEG, but as soon as they get inside, he casts Persistent Time Stop, and spends the time the players use to cross the room to gain ultimate power in his bubble. So the players are much stronger than he is, until he hits that caster button. Then the players charge through and deal with a rapidly pumped BBEG. He could conceivably just wall the players up, though.

Interesting point here: What is the effect of a time stop spell while already within a time stop? Are you sped up relative to your current frame, or to the existing prime material frame? Ie: do you get 1d4+1 rounds within 1 of the time stop rounds, or do the new 1d4+1 rounds overlap the existing spell?

[Mewtarthio]

Actually, problem. The players could hunt the BBEG, but as soon as they get inside, he casts Persistent Time Stop, and spends the time the players use to cross the room to gain ultimate power in his bubble. So the players are much stronger than he is, until he hits that caster button. Then the players charge through and deal with a rapidly pumped BBEG. He could conceivably just wall the players up, though.

So the PCs first must acquire the mystical artifacts that grant them all the epic bonus feat Spell Stowaway (Time Stop), thus entering accelerated time along with the BBEG. Of course, you'll have to have some way to break the effect for the PCs once they've won.

[NecroRebel]

Actually, problem. The players could hunt the BBEG, but as soon as they get inside, he casts Persistent Time Stop, and spends the time the players use to cross the room to gain ultimate power in his bubble. So the players are much stronger than he is, until he hits that caster button. Then the players charge through and deal with a rapidly pumped BBEG. He could conceivably just wall the players up, though.

I think that the idea is that the BBEG is already Persisted Time Stopped, and presumably nested Time Stops wouldn't work for one reason or another, so basically the spell Time Stop wouldn't function during that battle (or more accurately, everyone fighting is Time Stopped already).

Or, the device used to access the BBEG to actually fight him is some form of Real Time Synthesizer (RTS) that simply prevents all forms of time manipulation. Probably also Haste and Slow in an RTS, but those are relatively minor.

Besides, if a Wizard is Persisting Time Stops, he's probably at least low epic, and is probably going to be pretty damned confident in his own unstoppable abilities. What you're talking about is retreat Besides, no one says an epic-level Wizard has to be wise

[Quorothorn]

If it's allowed, remember that the character is getting old on normal time, but *his* normal time.

Fighter: "Hey, did the wizard suddenly grow older a couple years the past week, since he started that 'temporal manipulation experiment' of his?"
Cleric: "Uh... looks like it... at least now he has the long white beard he wanted for so long."

Lichdom makes everything better.

...Except coffee.