Thoughts on Cloaked Dancers?

[Frosty]

I want some opinions from people about the usefulnessd of the Cloaked Dancer PrC. My first instinct is rather underwhelming. I mean, all of its abilities are mind-affecting, and you only get them a few times a day. And the abilities aren't even OMG enough to base a strategy around I feel. What do you use cloaked dancers for? I can seriously see a lot of good in a Gestalt game, but in a normal game, I can't quite justify taking classes in this prc.

Do you think this Prc is underpowered?

[quiet1mi]

I sorry but which book does Cloaked Dancers come from (does not ring any bells)?

[The Rose Dragon]

It is a bad class. It can't do anything a bard / rogue can't do, if I remember its class features. And what it does, it does badly.

[BRC]

I sorry but which book does Cloaked Dancers come from (does not ring any bells)?

Complete Scoundrel (AkA, The Best Book Ever).


The problem with alot of the CS classes is they are designed not for your standard Kick-in-the-door games but for scoundrel style games. Games with Trickery and stealth, Cloaked Dancers are good for that type of stuff.

[Reinboom]

Having played the Cloaked Dancer in to a campaign before...
(Mixing with Assassin)

The class is quite underpowered. It does not do what it sets out to do very well.
The first level of it, effectively sums up to +2 Reflex for most situations. And since it will be your 8th or later level, this is a significant sudden loss to a rather boring level.
The class quite obviously has one intent, and if your party isn't willing to work with you, I would say just throw it out. Also, its tricks become repetitive. "Let me beguile them with my dance and then attack for the upper hand." "Is that all you do? I know it's a decent strategy that seems to work, but we've done this for the last 10 encounters!".
It really comes down to as a class only significant in power for its RP capabilities, and that's not really because of the class itself.

Levels 2 and 4 were the most significant levels it seemed, which is kind of disappointing.

Really, I felt that I should've just did a pure multiclassed Rogue/Bard/Assassin, or even tried to do a straight Bard, and would've been able to both do what this class does - but better - using bardic spells and been more significant to the party.

[Vortling]

Cloaked Dancer is a perfect example of the entire Comp. Scoundrel book. Excellent fluff, horrid mechanical execution. It's a very styled prestige class that doesn't improve your bard at all.

[BRC]

Cloaked Dancer is a perfect example of the entire Comp. Scoundrel book. Excellent fluff, horrid mechanical execution. It's a very styled prestige class that doesn't improve your bard at all.

Actually, with a couple exceptions (Cloaked Dancer, Master of Masks) The Com Scoundrel Prc's are pretty good mechanically, though you must remember they are for a style of game based more around roleplaying than combat. For Example, the Grey Guard, for you standard Goblins n' Skeletons n' Evil Wizards game your not going to need to streatch the paladin code anyway, so Grey Guard sucks compared to Paladins. However, in an Investigation and Mystery based game it can be a very fun class.

[Person_Man]

Cloaked Dancer is a perfect example of the entire Comp. Scoundrel book. Excellent fluff, horrid mechanical execution.

Exactly.

It's worth mentioning that some of the PrC do very well at very specific ECLs under very specific circumstances, especially the Avenging Executioner (fear), Combat Trapsmith (quick low cost traps), Master of Masks (Exotic Weapon Prof. for everything). But I consider most of the Comp. Scoundrel as a DM tool. Cloaked Dancer is essentially an NPC PrC.

[Adumbration]

Exactly.

It's worth mentioning that some of the PrC do very well at very specific ECLs under very specific circumstances, especially the Avenging Executioner (fear), Combat Trapsmith (quick low cost traps), Master of Masks (Exotic Weapon Prof. for everything). But I consider most of the Comp. Scoundrel as a DM tool. Cloaked Dancer is essentially an NPC PrC.

You're all forgetting the dreaded Malconvoker, aren't you?

[Frosty]

I think I'll work on a fix to the cloaked dancer later, but I gotta figure out what the class should actually do. I'm thinking of having it be a short, 3 level prestige class that a Bard or social/spell-focused Beguiler can make use of to gain a few extra options. Class abilities may include x times per encounter, make a perform (dance) check as a swift action to make a number of enemies within 30ft flat-footed until the beginning of your next round. The number of enemies that can be affected is equal to her Cloaked Dancer levels times 2. DC to resist is your perform check, and this is an extraordinary, non-mind-affecting ability, and you can't use this ability if you are invisible or hiding.

Then I'll probably give it some ability to use dance and seductive body language to give the dancer an edge in social situations as well. Maybe let her gain the upper hand in conversations, cause social gaffes for someone else, and in general fascinate people if she wants to. Not sure what her third ability would be, but she'd also advance existing spellcasting every level.

[Glyphic]

If you build it, I'll run a play test with my group. Either as an NPC encounter, or cohort. Or maybe a scantily dressed evil gal?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Adding the ability to do the concealment from the Cloaked Dance feat using a swift action, gaining the semi concealment at first level, and the full at third, would be a nice boost. Then, maybe add that every time you used Cloaked dance, you get an extra 2d6 to all the attacks until the end of your next turn.

But no extra spellcasting. If you JUST have to make it so, make sure it's only for bardic spellcasting, nothing else.

[Frosty]

I will work on it tonight. It will be 3 or 5 levels.

[Frosty]

But no extra spellcasting. If you JUST have to make it so, make sure it's only for bardic spellcasting, nothing else.

Why? Afraid wizards or sorcerers would abuse the class otherwise?

[Glyphic]

I think limiting it to bards would be a bad idea as well. There's other tricksy arcane casters. And why not let sorceresseses put their 'charisma' to good use?

[Frosty]

I really want to let Beguilers be able to use this prc as well, and will probably make tweaks to let it work.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Hmm...what about advancing spontaneous casters? Since it's a REAL sacrifice for a sorc, who doesn't have many skillpoints, and beguilers could use it, it should work out fine.

[Glyphic]

Go go Dancing Duskblade!

[Azerian Kelimon]

Ooh, nice. Is duskblade spontaneous?

[Frosty]

I believe so, yes.

Now, if I do this, I'll probably also houserule Beguilers to have Perform as a class skill. It really makes sense imo.

The question now becomes: should it be spontaneous arcane casting, or any spontaneous casting? Can you imagine a Dancin' Favored Soul of Sune?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Indeed. Beguilers use guile and wit, and if there's anything that's more than guaranteed to catch opponents offguard is exotic dancing.





Urge to create an Beguiler exotic dancer rising...

Edit: Yeah, ANY spontaneous casting. Pretty much ANY spontaneous caster I can think of could take Cloaked dancer for good fluffy reasons.

[Frosty]

Indeed. Beguilers use guile and wit, and if there's anything that more guaranteed to catch opponents offguard is exotic dancing.





Urge to create an Beguiler exotic dancer rising...

I'm still at work. I'll get to the homebrewin in a few hours.

[Glyphic]

Actually.. if I'm going to use the PrC in my campaign, it'll need to be a tap-dancer. One fabulous tap dancer.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Urge to create a Bard tap dancer with Dragonfire inspiration also rising...

[Frosty]

hmm...if we are going to let sorceresses take it, the prerequesites have to be altered since Sorceresses don't have a big skill list. Unless we're willing to let them have Perform and Sleight of Hand and stuff as class skills, the requirements might be:

Any non-lawful
Perform (Dance) (Exotic OR Belly OR Tap) 5 ranks
Sleight of Hand 5 ranks
Bluff 10 ranks

[Azerian Kelimon]

I'd take tap out 'cause it kinda counters the idea of Cloaked dancing (Confusing the opponent on your exact location), though it COULD be workable.

I'd add classical if you're keeping tap, though. Ballerinna pirouette's would be incredibly confusing and complicated to deal with in battle.

I'd make the requirements for bluff 9, so you can take it at level 6, like most PrC's.

Edit: And take out the non-lawful requirements. God knows how many dances are extremely rigid and strict on the steps you can take, with little improvisational room. Don't let Barb and Monk guide alignment restrictions, it's a bunch of BS.

[Frosty]

If we wanna let Bards and Beguilers take it at level 6, the Bluff requirement wold be 8. At 5th level, you'd earn your 8th rank in Bluff. Then at 6th, you take Cloaked Dancer.

As it stands, Bards, Beguilers, AND Sorcs can take it at level 8. Sorcs can get cross class Perform and Sleight of Hand up to 5 ranks at level 7, although this is like taking up *all* of their skill points.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Able learner and Open Minded come to the rescue there. It's not like you have much to do with the feats if you're a sorc, anyway.

And of course, make Cloaked Dance a prereq, since it even shares the name with the class.


All in all, I like how the class is shaping up. If we combine my and your buffs, it has something to offer to everyone: 2d6 extra damage to all your attacks, casting if you have it, the entrancing abilities for skillmonkeys and the like...only healbots are left out, but hey, gimps shouldn't get the lovin' here.

[Frosty]

Where is Cloaked Dancing from?

Anyhow, PM me your thoughts on what should be included. If there's a lot of benefits, I may make this prc 5 classes instead of 3. I'm gonna be leaving work now and I'll be back later. I can think up of class abilities while in traffic :p

[Azerian Kelimon]

This is Cloak Dance.

Hmm. Looks like it'd make Cloaked dancer a later entry PrC. Not like it's a bad thing, since the class would grow to a sizeable level of gi****ude with all the things we're giving it.

Now, on the things I'd like to add, aside from any bonuses you might have in mind, are this:

PrC has five levels. All of them advance SPONTANEOUS spellcasting, which is nice for just about anyone who would want to take this.

Level 1: Cloak Dance can be used to gain partial concealment as a swift action, and Total as a standard action.

Level 3: Cloak Dance can be used to get Total concealment as a swift action, and whenever you use it to get full concealment, you gain an untyped 2d6 bonus to all your attacks until the end of your next turn.

Level 4: If you don't have enough ideas to fill it up fully, this level would net you a +4 to Dance and Hide. Minor thing to fill up, really.

That would be it. With that, a broad range of characters would benefit from it at a reasonable cost (Duskblades for the concealment and nice bonus to damage, beguiler, favored soul, and sorc for the full casting + stuff, and bard from just about everything), and the extra abilities you might want to add would give it the final push into the "very desirable, worth getting into" side.