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Thread: Flurry of Claws?
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2008-04-22, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Flurry of Claws?
I'm sure this has been asked before. Is Monk/Druid a viable gestalt build? Wouldn't that make you a creature with natural armor, loads of powerful attacks (You thought two claw attacks per round was bad, add flurry.) and still a spellcaster? Plus it'd all be wisdom based, and your phsyical stats would be covered by wildshape, so no MAD.
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2008-04-22, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
Our DM doesn't allow such things.
Yes, in theory, a kung-fu bear could hit with one paw as an unarmed attack, doing flurry of blows, and follow it up with secondary bite and claw. It's mentioned in the Druid Handbook, with the caution that most DMs don't allow kung-fu bears.
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2008-04-22, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
Hey, it's a druid. How can you go wrong?
Besides, I prefer my Bear Warrior build for kung-fu bears. Less spell casting loss. Unless you're gestalt, in which case druid 20//monk 5/MoMF 10/Warshaper 5.My sig's Handy Haversack: Need help? Want to see what I've done? Want to see what others have done well? Check it out.
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SpoilerOriginally Posted by DonThelonious
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2008-04-22, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
Only humanoids have unarmed attacks.
Also, natural weapons cannot be used with Flurry of Blows.
Check the FAQ.
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2008-04-22, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
Person_Man - how do creatures deal damage in a grapple, which is the unarmed attack damage of a creature of that size?
The FAQ is ridiculous anyway, half the rulings are obtuse, like a rogue swallowed by some creature getting sneak attack damage automatically because the rogue is "invisible" to the creature that swallowed it. I fail to see how anyone could do "precision" damage when it's dark, you are being digested, you have no way of gauging what area of the enemy you are attacking even if you can see, etc.
Triangle_Man says not to use FAQ's blindly. I'd still not allow karate-bears and the like, but I also wouldn't allow wild-shape druids, using Aspect of the Wolf to self-enchant with animal spells, or other ways to get broken effects.
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2008-04-22, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
Of course, all this unarmed attack crap can be cut off by taking Dragon 'zine's Unorthodox Flurry. Done, Claw flurry.
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2008-04-22, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
Druid//anything is a viable Gestalt build. Monk is one of the best things to combine it with, since it gives a lot of passive bonus (that don't take an action), and they're based on Wis. No matter how you rule on Flurry of Blows (and Person_Man, do you have any cites for those?), you still gain the AC bonus and the faster movement, both of which are sort of icing on the cake for a druid.
Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
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2008-04-22, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
Regardless of who gets unarmed attacks, flurry of blows can't be used with natural attacks, only unarmed strikes. You don't need the FAQ for that, it's in the RAW. Quoth the SRD/PHB: "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons".
That said, I imagine most of the other monk abilities would help you when wild-shaped - increased speed, AC bonus, etc.
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2008-04-22, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
As mentioned above, Unorthodox Flurry.
Yeah, no matter what, that feat makes claw flurries viable.
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2008-04-22, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
They are not using unarmed strikes, they just deal the damage equivalent.
Originally Posted by SRDThe FAQ is ridiculous anyway, half the rulings are obtuse, like a rogue swallowed by some creature getting sneak attack damage automatically because the rogue is "invisible" to the creature that swallowed it. I fail to see how anyone could do "precision" damage when it's dark, you are being digested, you have no way of gauging what area of the enemy you are attacking even if you can see, etc.
The FAQ rulings that Person_Man refers to seems quite reasonable.
Originally Posted by FAQ, page 20Originally Posted by FAQ, page 20
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2008-04-22, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
As mentioned above, Unorthodox Flurry.
Yeah, no matter what, that feat makes claw flurries viable.
It also only grants you one weapon as a monk special weapon, so if you choose bite, say, and then shift into a form that attacks with a headbutt instead, it won't help you.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2008-04-22, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
I have a question about this:
Let's say you have an awakened bear Fighter (just for example). By RAW, if the bear takes the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does it now gain unarmed strike attacks? If so, then a Druid//Monk who wildshapes into a bear should still be able to use their Monk unarmed strike.
Personally, I'd allow any creature that has above animal intelligence to make an unarmed strike even if they normally have natural weapons.
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2008-04-23, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
Wildshape doesn't change your type, you'd still be considered humanoid.
Also, even if the creature's type were changed to animal, an animal with levels of monk would still have the monk's Improved Unarmed Strike ability, which would give them unarmed attacks.
No, but they can be added to the full attack progression as secondary attacks with a -5 penalty.Handbooks:
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2008-04-23, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
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2008-04-23, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
As secondary attacks, the natural attacks aren't part of the flurry. The FAQ does in fact say natural weapons can be used as a secondary attack after a flurry, so long as that natural weapon is not doing something else (such as holding a manufactured weapon):
Originally Posted by FAQ
At least, I think that's what it says. The FAQ doesn't appear to be going out of it's way to actually answer the question in a way any rational human being might understand.Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
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Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
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2008-04-23, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
Luckily I am not a rational human being.
Your emphasis is on the wrong part of the quote.
Notice the qualifier in the beginning of both answers.
Originally Posted by FAQOriginally Posted by FAQ
Most (might be an understatement) animals do not belong in this group, unlike monstrous humanoids for instance.
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2008-04-23, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
From SRD
Natural Weapons
Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
From this i'd say you cant make a "flurry of claws"
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2008-04-23, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
A monk with natural attacks counts as just such a creature (and there's an argument he doesn't even need to wildshape, since his unarmed strikes count as both manufactured and natural weapons, and he can exchange unarmed strikes with manufactured monk weapons in a flurry). A monk wildshaped into an animal loses the ability to hold manufactured weapons, but still retains his unarmed strike class ability, which allows him to treat his unarmed strikes as manufactured weapons.
If the monk gains any natural attacks via racial abilities/feats/wildshape, then he can designate them as secondary attacks and add them to his full attack with a -5 penalty (in addition to any flurry penalty).
The FAQ explicitly says that you can combine flurry with secondary attacks. Any creature with natural attacks can designate them as a secondary attack with a -5 penalty. Ergo, a monk/druid can wildshape into an animal, flurry with unarmed strikes, and add his natural attacks after the flurry with a -5 penalty. Clear as mud, yes?
(Skip Williams disagrees, but that probably has more to do with the description of the flurry ability than the muddled FAQ. Flurry says a monk can only attack with unarmed strikes or monk weapons, which might be interepreted as disallowing secondary attacks on any turn when the monk flurries, but the FAQ explicitly allows secondary attacks to be combined with flurry. The most likely case is the FAQ, and thus my argument, is *wrong* in addition to being hopelessly confusing.)Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
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2008-04-23, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
There is absolutely no problem combining natural weapon attacks with a FoB as long as the creature normally can use natural weapons along with manufactured weapons and the natural weapons are used as secondary attacks. (The FAQ agrees.)
The point here is not about the manufactured weapons even though the FAQ answers might mislead you to think that.
No the question is whether iterative attacks can be combined with natural weapon attacks.
What the FAQ is saying is that shapes/types that can do this normally (typically because their MM description includes a full attack routine that offers some combination of manufactured weapons and natural weapons) are allowed to include natural weapon attacks in their full attack (as secondary attacks) when also using FoB or just iterative Unarmed Strikes.
It follows then that if the shape/type does not have this ability naturally, such as animals, the creature cannot combine the two, but would have to choose between either using your unarmed strikes routine or your natural weapons when full attacking.
I hope that makes the argument reasonably clear.
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2008-04-23, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
"Never argue with stupid people, they just drag you to their level and beat you in experience."
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2008-04-23, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
It was my understanding that they can. Any creature with a natural attack via racial ability/feats/class feature can designate it as a secondary attack with a -5 penalty and add it on to a full attack progression.
A wildshaped monk does not change his type to animal. Even if it did, his unarmed strike feature allows him to attack with an unarmed strike while in animal form and treat it as a manufactured weapon. The FAQ explicitly says he can then combine his flurry with a secondary natural attack. So yes, I am completely and utterly failing to see how the FAQ says this can't be done, when it does in fact say it can.
Even if the animal did not have monk levels/abilities, his ability to attack with a manufactured weapon is not explicitly prevented via his animal type. Animals could be outfitted with metal weapons, such as an Eagle's Claw type thing or barding + armor spikes. Feats, templates, or class features could also give an animal the ability to attack with a melee weapon, and assuming that weapon did not occupy an appendage associated with a natural attack, the animal could add all his remaining natural attacks after his iterative attacks with a -5 penalty.
I do apologize. I can be *exceedingly* dense. But I still don't see anything that says a monk that wildshapes into an animal loses the ability to attack with a manufactured weapon, particularly when he has a class ability that gives him an unarmed strike that does not require any particular physiological appendage and allows him to treat it as a manufactured weapon.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, ok, as you state:
How does this NOT apply to a wildshaped monk?
As far as many DMs not allowing kung-fu bears... allowing a monk to flurry and then add his natural attacks at a -5 penalty isn't game-breaking. The warning about DMs not allowing kung fu bears has more to do with wildshape being broken than the kung-fu being broken.Last edited by Darrin; 2008-04-23 at 12:13 PM.
Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef:
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2008-04-23, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
I believe that this is the very assumption that causes the disagreement between you and the FAQ.
The basis for the FAQ ruling is that there are (roughly) two different kinds of creatures with regard to this question.
Whether these creatures are monks, mooks or Gonks is completely irrelevant.
The first kind is the one that can do it all. This kind is typical humanoid-like (I use the term very loosely) and they typically have some appendage that can be used to wield a manufactured weapon much like humanoids have.
They also typically have a full attack entry that combines natural weapon attacks with manufactured weapons.
The second kind has to choose between one or the other. Either it uses natural attacks or, if it happens to be a monk or perhaps just a very clever bear (read: druid), it attacks with its unarmed strikes, but not both at the same time.
The FAQ uses the qualifier, I quoted earlier, to say that, yes you may normally attack with everything you got, but not if you happen to fall into this second category where combining these two different types of weapons are not "natural".
The actual type of the creature is not important as this is not restricted to animals what is important is the shape used. This is also why I said that it does not matter if we are talking about a monk bear, a druid bear or a standard bear. All of them are in a form that does not allow iterative attacks to be combined with natural weapon attacks during full attacks.
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2008-04-23, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
There's a related FAQ entry for this. It talks about manufactured weapons and not unarmed strikes, but I believe the principle is the same: Making an unarmed strike, making a manufactured weapon attack, and making a natural weapon attack all require the dedicated use of the limb(s) involved. If you're doing one, it isn't available for the others.
Originally Posted by FAQFeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2008-04-23, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
So, if my understanding is correct, the battle log wold look something like this.
Monk uses Flurry!
Monk attacks with Punch!
Monk attacks with Punch!
Monk attacks with Punch!
Monk attacks with Punch!
Monk's flurry has ended.
Monk attacks with Claw!
Monk attacks with Claw!
Monk attacks with Bite!Avatar by K penguin. Sash by Damned1rishman.
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2008-04-23, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
Just to chime in, Unorthodox Flurry got put in the Dragon Compendium, which I believe is 3.5, so it's only got the trouble of being Dragon material.
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2008-04-23, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
If a monk wanted to attack with a claw, then he should probably avoid using that hand for an unarmed strike (such as a Punch). However he could Kick, Elbow, Knee, Headbutt, etc., and keep his claws free for natural attacks.
A monk using a "Punch" might count as using his fist as a manufactured weapon (a monk's strikes count as both a manufactured and natural weapon), and thus might not be considered "free" to make a claw attack. Even if you don't consider it a manufactured weapon in that instance, some DMs may object to making a claw attack with a hand that was busy doing something else earlier in the round, such as punching, on basic common sense grounds.Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
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Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
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Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
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2008-04-23, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
Last edited by Lord Lorac Silvanos; 2008-04-23 at 02:47 PM.
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2008-04-23, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
So, if my understanding is correct, the battle log wold look something like this.
A Blink Dog, by contrast, does not have a Full Attack entry in its stat block for combining manufactured and natural weapons. So while a Blink Dog monk could make unarmed strikes, and could even make iterative attacks and Flurry with unarmed strikes, it would have to do so instead of its normal bite attack, not in addition.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2008-04-23, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
Certainly, but my point was (just to be absolutely clear, since I seem not to be making much sense at all) that the FAQ goes even further and says that you cannot attack with your natural weapons if you have used unarmed strikes or other iterative attacks (or vice versa) AND are in a form that does not normally mix the two types.
Last edited by Lord Lorac Silvanos; 2008-04-23 at 02:53 PM.
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2008-04-23, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Flurry of Claws?
It's not clear how much of the Dragon Compendium material was actually updated to 3.5. Large chunks of it are identical to what was printed in Dragon during the 3.0 era. For example, the "Pebble Underfoot" feat is identical to what appeared in Dragon, but is illegal in 3.5: you cannot trip a foe that is two size categories or larger.
Unorthodox Flurry appears to have the same text as the 3.0 version. In fact, it only mentions three "monk" weapons, so it wasn't updated to include all of the 3.5 monk weapons such as the sai, shuriken, or staff. However, the prerequisite of "Monk level 6th+" printed in the magazine appears to have been removed, so that could either mean it was updated or the prerequisite was accidentally left out by mistake.Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef: