Statting Sweeney Todd

[StoryKeeper]

So, how would you stat out Sweeney Todd? If none of your group has seen the play or movie, or if you're just really good at keeping them from guessing it outright, Mr. Todd could make a nice gruesome NPC.

I'm thinking a few levels of expert with ranks in profession (barber), at least a level in bard, and then take the prestige class Avenging Executioner (complete scoundrel) and maybe Dirge Singer (libris mortis.) He'd probably have a maxed out dexterity score as well. Maybe take the leadership feat and have a cohort (Misses Lovette.)

Any thoughts?

[Ascension]

That would be a fairly weak build, but would suit him pretty well. He should be significantly higher level than the party to make up for having NPC levels. Note that you'll have to work to optimize that jumble of classes in order to make him a worthy challenge. Use dagger statistics for the razor (except keep it slashing, no piercing damage) and give him snowflake wardance and TWF since he'll be a bard wielding light slashing weapons. Keep CHA high. Insanity or no, he certainly has a presence.

Although the Avenging Executioner flavor fits, I might just take him straight bard with the above feats et al. Profession is on their class skill list, IIRC.

[SilverClawShift]

Sweeney Todd wouldn't need much to be realistically statted out. He didn't do all THAT much.

A single rogue level would probably be enough. 1d6 Sneak attack with a straight razor (1d3 slashing?) and say +1 strength damage, on a commoner with a handfull of hitpoints? Make him a level 3 rogue for 2d6 sneak attack to be sure.

[MeklorIlavator]

Considering his victims seemed to be in a barber chair and didn't suspect a thing, he probably got coup de grace on them, too. So Rogue 1 should work fine.

[Ascension]

Well, I was assuming he wanted Todd to be up to encountering the PCs. Sure, he can slaughter commoners with impunity no matter what class he's got, but if he wants to stand up to more well equipped foes...

[StoryKeeper]

He would probably be best suited for a low to medium level encounter in which he focused mainly on coup de gracing/ sneak attacking his customers. I mean, you want him to last through the first couple of attacks, but he did get sneak attacked and killed by a kid. It would be nice to have him kill off a few NPCs the PCs were more or less attached to, and then let them kill him only to have him return as some sort of undead (ghost maybe? Many possibilities there.) As an undead, he would be strong enough to challenge the PCs at slightly higher levels, and would be able to have some monstrous friends working with him.

[skywalker]

Although the Avenging Executioner flavor fits, I might just take him straight bard with the above feats et al. Profession is on their class skill list, IIRC.

Profession is on everyone's class skill list. It's just that everyone also has "adventurer" as their profession.

[Ascension]

Profession is on everyone's class skill list. It's just that everyone also has "adventurer" as their profession.

Not barbarians or fighters.

[Arakune]

Not barbarians or fighters.

Close, they got Profession: Dead Meat and Profession: Redskirt as bonus class skills after level 15th. For barbarians is optional.

[Mewtarthio]

Considering his victims seemed to be in a barber chair and didn't suspect a thing, he probably got coup de grace on them, too. So Rogue 1 should work fine.

A coup de grace requires you to pretty much put your blade on a vital spot and thrust downward. Remember, it's a full-round action, so we're talking a good six seconds of lining up the killing blow. Todd's attacks would be in a suprise round, so he's fighting a flat-footed opponent, which means full sneak attack damage and no Dex to AC.

[Ascension]

If he can spend the prep time shaving them, it might be an assassin's death attack.

[Dode]

Commoner w/ Skill Focus (Profession: Barber) and maybe Improved Initiative and Death Blow so he can coup-de-gras as a standard action

[EvilElitest]

Commoner w/ Skill Focus (Profession: Barber)

Expert would be better but yeah
from
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[Pyroconstruct]

Exemplar! He shaves that well! Remember the scene in the street where he out-performs that other Barber, that really seems like a use of the Exemplar to use Profession: Barber for Diplomancy.

[Grey Watcher]

Well, remember, he DID escape from Botany Bay and make it all the way from Australia to England. It was apparently quite the adventure, since, at least in the stage show, Anthony mentions having found him "pitching and tossing" on a raft. That's gotta be worth at least a few levels.

I'm gonna agree that the most accurate build would be Expert/Exemplar. Max out Profession: Barber, Bluff, maybe Disguise (the only person to actually recognize him is Mrs. Lovett, and even she isn't sure until she sees his reaction to her story about Lucy). Todd's whole menace is that you don't see him coming. In a straight fight, he's nothing special. An encounter or adventure based around Todd should be less of a kick-in-the-door affair and more of a mystery. Remember, Lovett and Todd are cautious enough to pick "strangers and such like what won't be missed," the PCs might not be coming into it investigating a "rash of disappearences", but a single one, discovering the rest as part of the adventure.

[Jack_Simth]

and then let them kill him only to have him return as some sort of undead (ghost maybe? Many possibilities there.)

Mohrg. Definately a Mohrg.

[Reaper_Monkey]

Mohrg. Definately a Mohrg.

That nails it perfectly! You can even have it that the in-game story picks up from where the play leaves off... hes already a Mohrg and has started up killing people again, although now maybe a few years later. Someone was talking about disguise, which could help him go mostly unnoticed if hes a nice looking zombie... but even if hes not it could be put into a very jack-the-ripper esque villian, poping up in a victorian london styled city at the dead of night, leaving slashed necks which are identified as being from razors..

From then on the mystery is how and why, and how to find him (and survive his ambush attacks) and stop him, as the murders keep increasing?

[togapika]

In dragon 231 there's the Barber prestige class from Al' Quadim

[Roderick_BR]

I didn't see it yet. Does he even fight or something? By what I heard, it is more a musical/suspense/horror/thriller movie/act than an adventure one.
The challenge would be to find him, not fight him. Maybe just enough levels in expert and rogue so he doesn't drop in the first hit.

[Sleet]

He's straight rogue. Lots of Profession (barber), lots of Bluff. Edit: I'm unfamiliar with the Exemplar class, but it seems appropriate based on what folks here say.

A coup de grace requires you to pretty much put your blade on a vital spot...

Have you seen a barber shave someone with a straight razor? Because that's exactly what he does.

[The Extinguisher]

I mean, you want him to last through the first couple of attacks, but he did get sneak attacked and killed by a kid.

He actually let Toby kill him.
/nitpick.

Just wanted to point that out.

[TempusCCK]

I actually just heard about that movie today, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just a lamer version of the Count of Monte Cristo? Kind of like "High School Musical" is really "Grease 2006"? Why not just stat out an evil version of the Count of Monte Cristo and have an elaborate set up for your PC's to either expose or fall victim too. Even more fun, have the entire thing orchastrated by the count, with your PC's as the henchmen, planning and plotting along with the Count, and executing along with him as well. I think that'd be cool as hell.

[TehJhu]

Look up the Avenging Executioner from Comp. Scoundrel.

There you go.

[Hzurr]

I actually just heard about that movie today, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just a lamer version of the Count of Monte Cristo? Kind of like "High School Musical" is really "Grease 2006"? Why not just stat out an evil version of the Count of Monte Cristo and have an elaborate set up for your PC's to either expose or fall victim too. Even more fun, have the entire thing orchastrated by the count, with your PC's as the henchmen, planning and plotting along with the Count, and executing along with him as well. I think that'd be cool as hell.

I could see where you could make that argument, but it's a biiiiig stretch. I'll put the rest in spoilers, in case anyone hasn't seen the musical (and if you get a chance, watch the stage version over the movie version. It's significantly better, and funnier, and scarier).

Spoiler

Show

The parts that are similar to Count of Monte Cristo, is that another guy (although not his friend like in CoMC) lusts after Sweeney Todd's (it wasn't his name at the time) wife, so gets him falsely arrested and sent to Australia. Todd escapes, and makes it back to London to exact his revenge. This is where the similarities stop between the two.(And this part is all summed up in the first 5 minutes of Sweeney Todd). Todd is completely evil, and out for revenge, and never reaches for forgiveness or anything like that as was in CoMC. Also, THERE IS CANNIBALISM! And repeated, unrepentant murder. Good times...

[StoryKeeper]

I actually just heard about that movie today, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just a lamer version of the Count of Monte Cristo? Kind of like "High School Musical" is really "Grease 2006"? Why not just stat out an evil version of the Count of Monte Cristo and have an elaborate set up for your PC's to either expose or fall victim too. Even more fun, have the entire thing orchastrated by the count, with your PC's as the henchmen, planning and plotting along with the Count, and executing along with him as well. I think that'd be cool as hell.

What Hzurr said, although I really liked your idea. Perhaps you could split the difference. Perhaps they help Sweeney get his revenge without knowing the full extent of his depravity. Or maybe they honestly think they're just sending people in to get a shave.

As for whether or not to have him be mohrg at the beginning or not... that's a hard one. On one hand, it fits him so perfectly that it's hard not to make him one right off the bat. On the other hand, if the PCs know him in life, it kind of gives you the feeling that you witnessed his creation or even took part in it somehow... decisions decisions...

[Sleet]

I actually just heard about that movie today, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just a lamer version of the Count of Monte Cristo?

Only in the sense that both are revenge stories.

[Aquillion]

As for whether or not to have him be mohrg at the beginning or not... that's a hard one. On one hand, it fits him so perfectly that it's hard not to make him one right off the bat. On the other hand, if the PCs know him in life, it kind of gives you the feeling that you witnessed his creation or even took part in it somehow... decisions decisions...

Definitely have him alive first. Returning villians can be fun, and while you can go easily from live barber to Mohrg, you can't really go in the other direction too believably (it doesn't seem likely anyone with the resources would go to the trouble of having him resurrected.)

[nargbop]

The Sweeney character is not a high-level one, but to make someone similar who's interesting to play against... I would make a campaign that starts at level one, urban, make enough interesting side-quests and misdirections so that the PCs meet Todd by level 4. I would make the PCs feel maybe just a little supportive for Sweeney until they met the evil little something-or-other.
Sweeney Todd - 2 Rogue / 3 Bard / 1 Avenging Executioner
4 ranks in profession (barber) , maxxed bluff, maxxed hide and move silent, maxxed perform (sing), some DisDev to show his mechanical abilities
STR 10 DEX 18 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 14

Take the feat that allows you to combine Rogue and Bard for sneak attack and bardic music. Forget what it's called, it and similar feats are in Complete Scoundrel.

[Sleet]

How are people figuring bard levels? It's a musical, everyone sings. That doesn't make everyone a bard, it just means they're living in a musical.

[StoryKeeper]

Exactly, thus everyone was investing skill points into perform (sing). Had they put the points into sense motive, maybe they wouldn't have been butchered.

Also, it is implied that Sweeney hears music in his head, and thus might gain some musical ability after years of singing back to himself.