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    Frosty's Avatar

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    Default A non-nboring lock-down build?

    I know the basics of a lockdown build. I can even throw in charging with shock-trooper. However, that feels kind of boring, so I'm looking for a Crusader-heavy build that will perform Lockdown, have interesting options in battle build (I've never built a Crusader before, so I'm not sure what maneuvers are good to take), and most important, can survive PvP against magic users. Not necessarily against uber-optimized magic users, but I'd need some way to be able to handle myself if one of my allies turns on me. This most likely involves me having some non-magical way to fly. I may also need to find ways to prevent mages from escaping via quickened teleportation abilities.

    On a related note, can Raptorans hover? Or do you need Good Maneuverability for that? Where are the rules for flying? In the DMG?
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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    If the maneuverability is insufficient, you can take a feat to gain hovering.

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Mage Slayer keeps casters from casting defensively in your threat area, which combined with reach and Thicket of Blades means nobody can cast within your area. Add a race with reach and you are 20ft of doom.

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.h...hreeDimensions

    For the flying rules (in the DMG otherwise)

    Improved Flight from Races of the Wild and Races of Faerun will improve your flight maneuverability by 1 step. You need 'good' to hover.

    Or, you can take the feat 'Hover' (back of the MM) to gain the ability to Hover.


    There are not many easy ways to stop teleportation quickened aside from Antimagic Fields, Dimensional Anchors, and Dimensional Locks.
    I'm not aware of any way to stop [Teleportation] in the ToB...
    You could try to figure out a way to quickly slap on dimensional shackles?
    Avatar by Alarra

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Well, nothing says you can't build a Crusader with a spiked chain. White Raven is full of screwing people over who threaten or threatening people.

    Seriously, though, if you're worried about saves, invest in Diamond Mind. There's a counter that lets you use a Concentration check in place of a save. That prevents a BUNCH of tomfoolery. Then wear a Ring of Freedom of Movement and a Necklace of Adaptation. That prevents Solid Fog/Cloudkill cheeze.

    From there, Pouncing Charge, from Tiger Fang, lets you make a Jump check (DC opponent's AC) to make a full attack on a charge. Kersmack.

    Oh yea, to make sure you go first, Diamond Mind (such a wonderful discipline) also has a lot of boosts which let you jack up your initiative to where not even a Batman will be able to go first. You will, however, have problems with 'Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect, then use that action to cast Sudden Max Time Stop, to give me four rounds to pwnzorz j00 and teleport away'.

    However, for true anti-caster, you need to go Swordsage for the higher touch AC to prevent Split Ray Empowered Enervations from screwing you over. Or some way of gaining a Death Ward effect. Swordsage has the benefit of granting you free access to Shadow Hand, which means you can reach out and screw someone (how about being able to DimDoor for a move action), then make sure they're really screwed with Setting Sun and fun grapple times.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2008-04-23 at 09:18 PM.
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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Oh yea, to make sure you go first, Diamond Mind (such a wonderful discipline) also has a lot of boosts which let you jack up your initiative to where not even a Batman will be able to go first. You will, however, have problems with 'Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect, then use that action to cast Sudden Max Time Stop, to give me four rounds to pwnzorz j00 and teleport away'.
    1) You'll never be able to win Init against a caster that focuses on it. And alot do.

    2) They don't need to contingency Celerity, they just use it.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Oh yea, to make sure you go first, Diamond Mind (such a wonderful discipline) also has a lot of boosts which let you jack up your initiative to where not even a Batman will be able to go first.
    Foresight+Celerity. Assuming your initiative mod is +9,999,999,999,999, the Batman still goes first. Contingency is secondary.
    [/sarcasm]
    FAQ is not RAW!
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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    Foresight+Celerity. Assuming your initiative mod is +9,999,999,999,999, the Batman still goes first. Contingency is secondary.
    Duration: 10 min./level
    So what, is he going to be casting it every 200 minutes or so?
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    This one was fun to build. It didn't end up getting used though...
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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    So what, is he going to be casting it every 200 minutes or so?
    There are plenty of ways to persist 9th level spells.

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Collin152 View Post
    There are plenty of ways to persist 9th level spells.
    Other than Incantatrix? Not any I can think of off hand (since he doesn't have any turn undead uses for DMM cheeze). And if you're playing against that sort of build, it's best just to have a typical charge/grapple build with an item of constant AMF up to keep contingencies and everything else from going off.

    Also, even in a build that focuses on building DC's, you'll still be able to make a decent Concentration check. Even with no con mod, that's 3+level+1d20. DC's on resists start at Stat Mod + Spell Level + 10. So let's call that starting at a 20 beforeyou get into stat mods, for a nicely rounded DC 30. Fine, at level 20, I have a 23. I have to roll a 7+ to make the save. Assuming, of course, I don't have any Con bonuses. Assuming a decent Con of 24, fairly low end for a 'tank' build, but let's say you focused on Str and Dex, you'd have a +30 mod for concentration. You only fail on a 1. So he'd need a DC 40 to make you break even. Assuming you don't have an item of +Concentration, which are stupidly easy to make. So he'd need to get his DC's up to 60+ before you really have to start worrying about it.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2008-04-23 at 10:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Bard dip. Metaphysical Spellshaper. Or just use a Rod of Extend, it's duration is actually long enough to have it up most of the time you are adventuring.

    And yes, that's why so many builds rely on no-save, no SR combos.
    Last edited by Sstoopidtallkid; 2008-04-23 at 10:36 PM.
    [/sarcasm]
    FAQ is not RAW!
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    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    Bard dip. Metaphysical Spellshaper. Or just use a Rod of Extend, it's duration is actually long enough to have it up most of the time you are adventuring.

    And yes, that's why so many builds rely on no-save, no SR combos.
    And that's why you wear a Necklace of Adaptation and a Ring of Free Movement, which negates most of them. Toss in a Scarab of Protection and you're gold.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Yes, Spiked Chain, Mage Slayer, Stand Still, And Thicket of Blades will all be part ofmy build. But what else do I need to be an effective melee character? I wanna be able to kill as well, and not do it ONLY by charging.
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    I'm actually thinking Is Stone Dragon worth it? At high levels, flying would not be an uncommon thing, so is it even worth investing in Stone Dragon maneuvers?
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Get Mountain Tombstone, then get out. That is one of the weakest disciplines for that reason.
    [/sarcasm]
    FAQ is not RAW!
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    Saph:It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.
    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

  17. - Top - End - #17
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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    There's no prerequesite except Maneuver level 9. Cool. That means I can just wait until level 17 to get it. But then, I'll be missing out on other coollevel 9 maneuvers until two levels later. Hmm...what to do...what to do.
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    There's no prerequesite except Maneuver level 9. Cool. That means I can just wait until level 17 to get it. But then, I'll be missing out on other coollevel 9 maneuvers until two levels later. Hmm...what to do...what to do.
    That's the best level 17 feat for many builds. There's also a 2nd level maneuver called Mountain Hammer that you should pick up, as it remains useful as "shatter-in-a-can" even at high levels. But other than those 2, the school is useless.
    [/sarcasm]
    FAQ is not RAW!
    Avatar by the incredible CrimsonAngel.
    Saph:It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.
    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

  19. - Top - End - #19
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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    I'm trying to decide between it and Strike of Righteous Vitality.

    On a side note, can you shield bash with an Animated shield that you're not holding (it's floating in front of you)

    Also, should Crusaders take Power Attack? Or is it worthless without charging and shock trooper and stuff?
    Last edited by Frosty; 2008-04-24 at 02:14 AM.
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    I'm trying to decide between it and Strike of Righteous Vitality.

    On a side note, can you shield bash with an Animated shield that you're not holding (it's floating in front of you)

    Also, should Crusaders take Power Attack? Or is it worthless without charging and shock trooper and stuff?
    I don't think you can bash with an animated shield.

    Power Attack is less effective without Shock Trooper, but by no means is it worthless, particularly when combined with certain Diamond Mind strikes which allow you to resolve an attack as a touch attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    I don't think you can bash with an animated shield.

    Power Attack is less effective without Shock Trooper, but by no means is it worthless, particularly when combined with certain Diamond Mind strikes which allow you to resolve an attack as a touch attack.
    Crusaders get Diamond Mind?
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Crusaders get Diamond Mind?
    Alas, looking over the book again, Crusaders are the only ones which DON'T get Diamond Mind. One of the reasons why I rarely play them. Still might be worth blowing a feat to pick up, though. full PA plus touch attack means fun times for all.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  23. - Top - End - #23
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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Meh, there's a +1 weapon enchantment that does that 3 times a day I think.
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: A non-nboring lock-down build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Meh, there's a +1 weapon enchantment that does that 3 times a day I think.
    I'd rather be able to do it as many times as I can cycle my maneuvers, thanks to Crusader's wonky method of refreshing, but I admit that's a personal preference. Mountain Tombstone Strike is still very worthwhile for any build.

    If you're working heavily with people who have sneak attack dice, you may want to pick up the feat Clarion Call, which lets you make a flat DC intimidate check to declare an opponent flanked. Best part is, this works even on things with Improved Uncanny Dodge, because you're not trying to flank, he is already in the state of being flanked. So sneak attack away, my friend. Technically, this even works with ranged attacks, as the opponent is declared to be flanked, even though you're not normally able to flank an opponent with a ranged weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
    Spoiler
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

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