Killing a God?

[AKA_Bait]

So, my gaming group this weekend will be fighting the following:

Szass Tam
Umberlee
A bunch of minions

The party, on average, is ECL 21 or so. All spell casters have access to 9th level spells. We are:

Elven Scout
Human Iniatiate of the 7 Fold Veil
Human Exhalted Warmage
Human Bard/Cleric/Paladin of Freedom (me)
Dwarven Fighter/ShadowdancerlikePRC
Elven Seeker of the Song
Drow Monk

So, any ideas on how we can make this fly?

[Illiterate Scribe]

The normal favoured method of killing deities is to drop a precipitate complete breach from the Outlands on them, thus denying them any magical or divine abilities, and then engaging in fisticuffs with them. Problem is, the Outlands doesn't exist in the FR. Any way you could bust your way through to the Great Wheel first?

Another method would be the quintessence stasis method (my personal favourite). With no psionic types in your party, you'd be hard pressed to find enough of the stuff, but if you can find a large vat of quintessence, take the first opportunity you can to dump it over Umberlees' head, freezing her in time.

[AKA_Bait]

The normal favoured method of killing deities is to drop a precipitate complete breach from the Outlands on them, thus denying them any magical or divine abilities, and then engaging in fisticuffs with them. Problem is, the Outlands doesn't exist in the FR. Any way you could bust your way through to the Great Wheel first?

Another method would be the quintessence stasis method (my personal favourite). With no psionic types in your party, you'd be hard pressed to find enough of the stuff, but if you can find a large vat of quintessence, take the first opportunity you can to dump it over Umberlees' head, freezing her in time.

Yeah. Sadly, neither of those are going to be options. We are squarely in FR and have no quintessence. We also have very little time to prepare.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Ah, OK then. I'd recommend striking hard and fast, then possibly using some gated-in nastiness. I'm sure that you could justify bringing a Chichimec or two, since they could be the spawn of her air aspect. If you can seperate Tam from Umberlee, then that might help; I might be more worried about him, to be honest, given that he's a high level wizard.

Another thing - just try to deal MASSIVE DAMAGE vs. a deity; their saves, defences, and immunities are too good.

[Frosty]

You have a Drow MONK in the same party as an Iot7V? Talk about opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of optimization. Do Monk and Drow SR even stack?

[AKA_Bait]

You have a Drow MONK in the same party as an Iot7V? Talk about opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of optimization. Do Monk and Drow SR even stack?

I don't know. I think they do, or it as houseruled that they do.

We do have a very wide gap in optimization in the party. I'm probably someplace in the middle in terms of power since I intentionally nerfed my caster progression.

Tam is a big concern as well.

[mostlyharmful]

Anyone have a good diplomacy score?

[AKA_Bait]

Anyone have a good diplomacy score?

I do, as well as an insane bluff, but the DM isn't going to let us talk our way out of this fight. It's one of the 'epic campagin nearng the end' battles. We are going to have to ice them or die trying.

[Chronos]

Do you have epic spells? You probably don't have time to come up with something customized for this battle, but what epic spells do you have available already?

And can you get any gods on your side? I don't know if either of those two has any particular enemies among the gods, but even if you can't get anyone else to stick their neck out for you, they might let you borrow some artifacts or something.

[The_Werebear]

In this case, it might be best to Glibness it up and pray that you roll well. If you can bluff/diplomacy them into turning on each other, it gets infinitely easier.

Otherwise, I recommend focused fire on the deities if you can. Gate in some minions to deal with theirs, and pray that yours survive longer. Slap AMF's on them as often as possible. It won't take more than an action for them to get rid of it in all likelyhood, but a standard action they take quashing that spell is a standard action they don't spend quashing you. And there are more of you than them, so you can afford to try and lock them up and pick at them if you have a way to do it reliably.

[Frosty]

Would dusts of coughing and sneezing work on deities?

[Aquillion]

Would dusts of coughing and sneezing work on deities?

Nope. Divine Rank 1+ grants immunity to stunning.

[Kioran]

Okay. So you will have problems with the deity, but you have one shot that has a somewhat decent chance to take out Szass Tam: A locked and loaded Warmage. God knows they´re less than optimal, but the combination of True Strike and Sudden Maximized, Sudden empowered (enhanced? can he/she do that?) Käsekugel (Orb of X) will ignore concealment, almost surely hit and deal about 153.25 or 116.75 (Force) damage, + another 102.25 or 67.5 if enhanced.

If this one hits, chances are the Wizard goes down, unless he´s heavily optimized. Yay for blasting! It´s a one-of, but maight get something of your backs.

[Starsinger]

Hrm... additional text to meet required length

Now watch closely, everyone. I'm going to show you how to kill a god. A god of life and death. The trick is not to fear him.

[AKA_Bait]

Do you have epic spells? You probably don't have time to come up with something customized for this battle, but what epic spells do you have available already?

Nope, no epic spells. We are ECL 21 or 22 because of various bumps to caster level and things we have been given along the way. Most of our characters are around 19 or 20.

And can you get any gods on your side? I don't know if either of those two has any particular enemies among the gods, but even if you can't get anyone else to stick their neck out for you, they might let you borrow some artifacts or something.

Probably not. The campagin is set up in a 'the gods are not supposed to intervene' way. Umberlee is cheating by appearing on the material plane. The good gods won't break the rules.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I'd say that if Szass Tam is played remotely like he ought to be, he'd wipe the floor with you by himself. A 29th-level wizard/red wizard/archmage? Hello, crazy circle magic with the entire school of Necromancy among the Red Wizards. But it's really down to who's more clever - you lot, or him. Since your DM is only one person (and you are the heroes), I figure that's weighed in your favor.

As for Umberlee... well, is this the actual Divine Rank 12 Umberlee from Faiths and Pantheons, her avatar from Faiths and Pantheons, or something else?

Generally, I'd say she will squash you in either form (hello, Annihilating Strike in real form, and saves over +45 and divine blast for 15d12 in avatar form), unless you have something specifically designed to level the field against Umberlee or deities in general. Traditionally in Faerûn, you beat deities by using divine powers of some sort (like Cyric using a sword that was actually Mask, and against deities that had been turned mortal at that). Never fight deities unless you have something to "counter" them. (Sick Kezef on her, maybe? Abominations would work, too.)

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

You have a Drow MONK in the same party as an Iot7V? Talk about opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of optimization. Do Monk and Drow SR even stack?

They do stack, but they stack by Wonky SR stacking rules:

What actually happens is, that depending on how much SR your second source gives you, you get a very tiny number added on to your current SR. In this case +2.

So a Drow Monk gets SR equal to Monk levels +12, or just enough to overcome the crap drow LA and catch back up to the (crap) SR he would have had if he had been a human Monk.

[CASTLEMIKE]

There is that Minor Artifact the Jathiman Dagger which ignores any divine bonus to armor class buried off Saerloon. Created by cultists to kill Gods. For a period of time in the possession of Bane before he bacame a God. Currently embedded in the last remants of Borem's Quagheart his still beating heart. Removing it could return him to Faerun.

[martyboy74]

The prferred method of deicide on these boards is to teleport a holy sword in to tiamat's the gods' hearts.

[Illiterate Scribe]

The prferred method of deicide on these boards is to teleport a holy sword in to tiamat's the gods' hearts.

A uranium sword!

[JaxGaret]

Okay. So you will have problems with the deity, but you have one shot that has a somewhat decent chance to take out Szass Tam: A locked and loaded Warmage. God knows they´re less than optimal, but the combination of True Strike and Sudden Maximized, Sudden empowered (enhanced? can he/she do that?) Käsekugel (Orb of X) will ignore concealment, almost surely hit and deal about 153.25 or 116.75 (Force) damage, + another 102.25 or 67.5 if enhanced.

If this one hits, chances are the Wizard goes down, unless he´s heavily optimized. Yay for blasting! It´s a one-of, but maight get something of your backs.

I'm playing the Warmage, and I've PrCed out since 6th level - Warmage6/ExaltedArcanist5/Fatespinner4/HolyScourge5. Here is my feat selection: Purify Spell, Consecrate Spell, Rapid Metamagic, Quicken Spell, Channel Charge, Versatile Spellcaster, Practiced Spellcaster, Luck of Heroes, Spell Focus (Good), and Skill Focus: Knowledge (arcana). I'm heading into Loremaster next.

I was obviously not trying to optimize it much, as the other PCs in the campaign - other than the Iot7V/Incantatrix - are not very optimized (the Wu Jen should be less powerful than she is, but the DM rules that Wu Jens can cast off of the Wizard + Wu Jen lists, for whatever reason).

[StoryKeeper]

I don't know much about the realms or how you're handling deities, but if the deities gain power through worship, maybe you could cause a massive shift in opinion to weaken them. Honestly, killing a god and changing the minds of the entire world are probably about the same in difficulty. If you can't make people stop worshiping them, maybe the power from their worship converges in a certain place or something. Find that and either destroy it or channel it into yourselves or something.

If deities don't get their strength from worship...

*Make it really epic somehow. Go for the gonads of one of them and hope that his blood produces a bunch of angry spawn that hate him for whatever reason.
*Complain to a lawful deity about them not playing by the rules. If you can't kill a god, another god probably can.
*Do demonlords and archdevils have the same restriction on interacting with the world? If not, maybe you can convince them. You have a drow, is Lolth considered a deity or high-ranking demon here?
*Convince the deities that you yourselves are deities.
*Convince a bunch of mortals that you're deities until they worship you and make you authentically deific.

[SadisticFishing]

They do stack, but they stack by Wonky SR stacking rules:

What actually happens is, that depending on how much SR your second source gives you, you get a very tiny number added on to your current SR. In this case +2.

So a Drow Monk gets SR equal to Monk levels +12, or just enough to overcome the crap drow LA and catch back up to the (crap) SR he would have had if he had been a human Monk.

Huh? Where'd you find that?

[Tsotha-lanti]

I don't know much about the realms or how you're handling deities, but if the deities gain power through worship, maybe you could cause a massive shift in opinion to weaken them. Honestly, killing a god and changing the minds of the entire world are probably about the same in difficulty. If you can't make people stop worshiping them, maybe the power from their worship converges in a certain place or something. Find that and either destroy it or channel it into yourselves or something.

The Cyricist / Banite pogroms where one and the other are alternately given the opportunity to convert or die don't seem to affect the relative power of the deities; only by actually killing Bane (during the Time of Troubles, when the poor sod was mortal) did Cyric take his place. (And Cyric returned by being reborn through another deity, rather than just by gaining back worship. In fact, he gained back worship afterwards.)

I presume this is an avatar deal (in which case you just need to pummel that 51 AC until Umberlee hit points give out - no big deal, really), since actually killing a deity tends to result in assuming that deity's portfolio. (Although that may have been a Time of Troubles thing; didn't Ao get involved and assign portfolios to "winners" and other likely candidates?)

That, and good luck weakening the worship of the deity every sailor in the world propitiates before going out to sea in order to avoid storms. (That, and it would take years and years. In that time, they'd be better off just getting Epic Spellcasting.)

I'd seriously say Szass Tam is the bigger threat, since he's the better spellcaster. Umberlee's just a big bashing monster with a limited selection of (at-will?) SLAs.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Huh? Where'd you find that?

DMG or MM, something for DMs making templated monstrosities. But it doesn't say it doesn't apply to PCs.

[Collin152]

A uranium sword!

An anti-osmium bolus.
Then you run like hell.

[TehJhu]

Gate to another Prime Material Plane. Preferably Oerth, so you can then gate from there to Earth and rule the world.

[Idea Man]

What have you done to anger your DM?!

Minions are easy. If they're tougher than you, give up and run, otherwise, go to town!

Hmm, Szass Tam. Give him a reason to run, and quickly! Blanket party with death ward for insurance.

Umberlee. Happy version makes her the brute force of this fight, and she can dish it out in whichever aspect she takes. Horror version says your DM is taking full advantage of her multitude of spells, as well as spell-like abilities. That makes two casters, one roughly ten levels higher than your party, the other a fully functional 30th lvl gish with healing abilities on the side. Plus minions (presumably mix of undead and aquatic). Either version has an absurd number of hit points and a dangerously high SR.

At your level, without serious epic power to back yourselves up, either Szass Tam or Umberlee should waste your whole group, much less together, with help. Best hope is to buff to the hilt, strike with all your might, and if you have to die, look good doing it!

As Shaddam said to King Kashew in Record of Lodoss War "At least it's a worthy opponent, my lord.".

[nagora]

If it's a god, you can't kill it. If you can kill it, it wasn't a god.

On its home plane (at least), a deity can simply will your magic to not work and your equipment to be made of chocolate. Or teleport you away.

Gods are like that. No wonder so many people want to kill them.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

They've already said it is on the Material Plane. Plus, if it has stats, we can kill it. It may take leveling up to 21 and getting Tippyesque spellcasting, but we can kill it.