Helpless (My players stay out)

[shadow_archmagi]

I'm planning an execution, but I can't figure out a good mechanical way to get the character helpless. Beating him until he's unconscious would sort of defeat the point of a coup de grace. I'd love to be able to just have the guards grappling the guy, but pinning specifically says it doesn't render them helpless.

How does one get an opponent awake, fully aware of his impending doom, at full HP, to suffer a coup de grace? I want this to be a

"Suddenly, they ____ him and then you watch as they put the crossbow to his temple and fire."

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Simple.

If the character struggles, then play out the fight. If not, it's a coup-de-grace.

[Icewalker]

If you mean like a quick struggle and then they pin him down and execute him, then I'm not sure how to best do it in dnd rules.

For a more prepared execution, tied up does it. Or in stockades.

[Dode]

Drug him with some sort of paralysis poison. I know some exists in a manual somewhere, but just homebrew it and save everyone some time..

[GrassyGnoll]

Paralyzing touch? If you're in a particularly evil locale you can have ghoul executioners.

[shadow_archmagi]

If you mean like a quick struggle and then they pin him down and execute him, then I'm not sure how to best do it in dnd rules.

For a more prepared execution, tied up does it. Or in stockades.

I don't reckon theres too many ropes that a 10th level can't bust. I want this to not last three rounds. Paralysis looks fun.

[Icewalker]

Pheh, loads of ropes. If it is a 10th level strength character, maybe non-magical won't work, but it isn't exactly a bad investment for re-usable magic execution ropes.

[shadow_archmagi]

Pheh, loads of ropes. If it is a 10th level strength character, maybe non-magical won't work, but it isn't exactly a bad investment for re-usable magic execution ropes.

Animated Adamantium Chains maybe? Of course, that still leaves the problem of how to stat out Adamantium chains, as I reckon DC 23 is a tad low. Course, spell don't even mention what the Reflex DC is. Do you even get Reflex when flatfooted?

[Dr Bwaa]

Level 10? Deep Slumber. Asleep and helpless.

Or, just have someone with levels in Assassin do it. Buff the death attack DC (fox's cunning, Assassin's Dagger, and so on), slit his throat (he can be shackled but not helpless, even!), and call it a day.

[shadow_archmagi]

Level 10? Deep Slumber. Asleep and helpless.

Or, just have someone with levels in Assassin do it. Buff the death attack DC (fox's cunning, Assassin's Dagger, and so on), slit his throat (he can be shackled but not helpless, even!), and call it a day.

So all I'd need is someone to grapple and then pray they don't beat the Fort? Sounds good. Assuming he isn't reading it even as YOU read this, it ought to be a very surprising end to the campaign.

[expirement10K14]

Book of Vile Darkness has execution tools. Make a profession (Executioner check). If your check succeeds (based on the tool used) they die, if it fails it deals damage.

[FlyMolo]

Enough ropes and a stockade should be plenty.

Who's going to be able to make a DC 23 str check? You need at least 16 str, and at 10th level your average str-based character will have about 20 strength, ne? so +5, they need to roll and 18 or better. One check a round, you can hold them for on average 10 checks. a minute.

That's if they're ridiculously buff, and only tied up with rope. For real unbustable, go for chain, or manacles. Masterwork without saying. Masterwork manacles can keep anyone with less than 26 strength tied up indefinitely. A raging Water Orc barbarian has 30 strength, but that's optimized. And he still needs to roll an 18 or better. Not counting magic items, but those'll be taken off.

If he's constacked too, that barbarian will have a con of 20, which means he rages for 3+5=8 rounds. The chances are better than 50-50 that he stays bound, even if he rages and keeps trying to bust out. Without tireless rage, he can no longer get out without raging, and only on a nat 20 then. So he's probably stuck.

In summary, masterwork manacles will keep even Strength and Con stacked Water Orc barbarians captive while raging. Not a sure thing, but better than 50-50.

[shadow_archmagi]

Book of Vile Darkness has execution tools. Make a profession (Executioner check). If your check succeeds (based on the tool used) they die, if it fails it deals damage.

Wait... according to the Crucifixtion method (It'd be a nice touch on the paladin) it takes ten hours for them to die, assuming they're at full HP to begin with.

It also says that victims get an Escape Artist check every round.

Either I'm missing something, or no one EVER gets killed this way.

[Tokiko Mima]

Wait... according to the Crucifixtion method (It'd be a nice touch on the paladin) it takes ten hours for them to die, assuming they're at full HP to begin with.

It also says that victims get an Escape Artist check every round.

Either I'm missing something, or no one EVER gets killed this way.

It works ok if you have an +8 or less bonus to Escape Artist checks, provided that the executioner does it right. If he doesn't, then anyone can and probably will escape. You're correct that this is not an ideal method to use on High level PC's, but then most execution methods in BoVD wouldn't work on them anyway.

[FlyMolo]

Wait... according to the Crucifixtion method (It'd be a nice touch on the paladin) it takes ten hours for them to die, assuming they're at full HP to begin with.

It also says that victims get an Escape Artist check every round.

Either I'm missing something, or no one EVER gets killed this way.

No natural 20s on a skill check. So if the executioner has a Use rope mod 11 higher than the pcs escape artist, or just 1 higher and he takes 20, the paladin is stuck.

[Dr Bwaa]

So all I'd need is someone to grapple and then pray they don't beat the Fort? Sounds good. Assuming he isn't reading it even as YOU read this, it ought to be a very surprising end to the campaign.

Technically the grapple isn't even necessary. All it requires is that the target is denied DEX.

What PC is this hitting? What saves are good, what not?
If this is to be done in front of the rest of the party, put them in a separate room, with a one-way mirror so they can see what's happening as he goes to talk to someone nonthreatening. The rest of the party can see the assassin descending slowly from the ceiling on a rope behind him as he talks. The PCs are silenced (magically, presumably), so he can't hear their warnings. Assassin in the ceiling pulls out an assassin's dagger and slits his throat as he talks.

A Rogue 5/Assassin 10 will have hide & move silently at about +30 or more--no way the poor guy hears him descending. He will have a death attack DC of
10 (base) + 10 (class level) + 7 (INT) + 1 (dagger) + 2 (Cold-Blooded Killer) = 30, assuming you can't buff INT past +7, which you should be able to do. Even a paladin should have trouble making that.

[shadow_archmagi]

There is a paladin (who I intend to Crucify) and a monk, whose demise method I havn't quite decided upon. They're both gestalt.

Technically, the paladin is also a cleric, but aside from the improved will save he almost never remembers or even considers his cleric abilities.

The monk is a multiclassed Monk-Drunken Master/Swordsage (Tiger Claw). His jump modifier is insane. Monk's keep their crazy wisdom bonus to AC even when flatfooted, and I need to neutralize him immediately so he doesn't leap forward and kill the gloating-yet-fragile NPC.

[StoryKeeper]

What about Hold Person? If it doesn't last long enough, you could just have it reused over and over by multiple casters.

[RyanM]

Well, BoVD says crucifixion has a fixed escape DC of 28. However, if the execution is botched (Profession Executioner check DC 15), they gain a +10 circumstance bonus to escape.

I'd say pinning is sufficient to immobilize a character enough to drive nails through their limbs.

For the monk... Cover him with cursed items that reduce his stats and stuff, maybe force him to eat enough poison that his Str and Dex are reduced to 0.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

For the monk... Cover him with cursed items that reduce his stats and stuff, maybe force him to eat enough poison that his Str and Dex are reduced to 0.

MONK.
words.

[Dr Bwaa]

MONK.

He's gotcha there.

If you go with the assassin for the monk: Assassins get True Strike, and I don't care what his wisdom bonus is, if you tweak out your assassin's Hide/Move Silently, there is no way the monk hears you.

You're looking at: 18 ranks, +5 (at least) DEX, +5 cloak/boots of elvenkind or better, + 30 invisibility, and so on. And like I said, even with monk saves he fails a DC >30 Fort save.
If the assassin is Gestalt? Rogue 10//Assassin 10. The sneak attack alone is +10d6. plus you've got a rogue special ability. Plus feats. Win.

Alternative?
Invisible mage says "Forcecage." Where's your Jump check now?

[Draz74]

If the assassin is Gestalt? Rogue 10//Assassin 10. The sneak attack alone is +10d6. plus you've got a rogue special ability. Plus feats. Win.

Um. PrCs in Gestalt don't work that way.

Rogue 10//Swordsage 5/Assassin 5, now that could work.

[Dr Bwaa]

Um. PrCs in Gestalt don't work that way.

Rogue 10//Swordsage 5/Assassin 5, now that could work.

Bah. You're right of course; I didn't want to think around how you'd actually get all ten levels of assassin in there (for the death attack DC), assuming you want to keep a level 10 build. Is it possible?

[TheDright]

Wait... according to the Crucifixtion method (It'd be a nice touch on the paladin) it takes ten hours for them to die, assuming they're at full HP to begin with.

It also says that victims get an Escape Artist check every round.

Either I'm missing something, or no one EVER gets killed this way.

Crucifixion is not meant to be a quick death. Usually its a really public event and the person being crucified is watched/guarded for the full ten hours.

[Behold_the_Void]

Out of curiosity why are you trying to find a fool-proof way to kill your PCs? In my experience that tends to create some hard feelings.

[Irreverent Fool]

What about Hold Person? If it doesn't last long enough, you could just have it reused over and over by multiple casters.

That or the higher-level Hold-Monster.

[shadow_archmagi]

Out of curiosity why are you trying to find a fool-proof way to kill your PCs? In my experience that tends to create some hard feelings.

Its the end of the campaign, and I'm not DMing for a long time after this, and they won't be re-using those characters anyway. The assassin doesn't need to hide because he won't be wearing black robes and carrying a scythe. PCs might get a spot check to notice his Belt of Battle though.

I'm modelling him after oh, ah, mmmmm, Fenring.

[Noir-Neko]

Nugget of advice:
Never underestimate the power of Role playing over Roll playing.

[Talic]

Few effects give helpless for a reason. The game limits it.

That said...

Provided they're not elf. Ghoul with a few applications of Evolved undead (Libris Mortis).

If it's higher level, give it Fighter levels/rogue levels first. This wil boost CHA and HD, and boost the save for the paralysis touch. If the ghoul has at least 11 hd (not that hard), Evolved Undead will give it Hold Monster 1/day.

[xPANCAKEx]

anti-magic field could solve a lot of issues

and if you're really set on excecuting the poor soul, then set the escape DC at some stupendously high level. You are the DM after all