Some random gish questions spawned by random gish thoughts

[Crow]

I love gishes.

1. The Duskblade seems to be a very flavorful gish-in-a-can, and I like the mechanics, but I've gotten so used to gishes that manage 9th-level spellcasting, that the point where the duskblade tops out is feeling a little lacking. To those who have played this class extensively, do you ever notice the loss of those higher-order spells, or does the class remain fun to play throughout the whole progression? I haven't had the opportunity to play one yet, but was considering it.

2. Theoretical question: Once a duskblade makes in into epic levels, is there any way for them to develop epic spellcasting without having to take 17 levels of wizard, cleric, or druid? Or are they doomed to epic mediocrity like all the other non-full-casters?

3. Has anybody heard anymore about the Swordmage 4e class? Will it be in the core books? Websense prevents me from going to wizards or Enworld, so I sadly can't check these out myself.

[Rutee]

3. Has anybody heard anymore about the Swordmage 4e class? Will it be in the core books? Websense prevents me from going to wizards or Enworld, so I sadly can't check these out myself.

I'm pretty sure it's in the FR Book. The rest is all specific, and I can't help besides saying as well that I like Gishes (At least, conceptually.. this "Needs 9th Level casting" nonsense is annoying though )

[Crow]

I'm pretty sure it's in the FR Book. The rest is all specific, and I can't help besides saying as well that I like Gishes (At least, conceptually.. this "Needs 9th Level casting" nonsense is annoying though )

It is annoying. But once you've had it, it's hard to have something less =) All or nothing and all that jazz...

I am disappointed that the Swordmage will be FR-specific...

[Jasdoif]

2. Theoretical question: Once a duskblade makes in into epic levels, is there any way for them to develop epic spellcasting without having to take 17 levels of wizard, cleric, or druid? Or are they doomed to epic mediocrity like all the other non-full-casters?

I'm not sure how "legal" this is...but you could try taking Improved Spell Capacity four times to get a 9th-level slot, take Heighten Spell to be able to prepare a 9th-level spell in the resulting 9th-level slot via Heightening some spell of your choice, and then claim to your DM that you're able to cast 9th-level spells.

[Rutee]

I am disappointed that the Swordmage will be FR-specific...

I doubt the fluff will be that specific, really, or that the crunch will enforce specific fluff. But yeah, it sucks that it's not in the PHB. ;.;

[Tokiko Mima]

I love gishes.

Me too!

1. The Duskblade seems to be a very flavorful gish-in-a-can, and I like the mechanics, but I've gotten so used to gishes that manage 9th-level spellcasting, that the point where the duskblade tops out is feeling a little lacking. To those who have played this class extensively, do you ever notice the loss of those higher-order spells, or does the class remain fun to play throughout the whole progression? I haven't had the opportunity to play one yet, but was considering it.

Duskblade is a great class, and it's a recommended way for a non-optimizer to experience being a gish. You will get better results from mixing a fullcaster, but the result is usually clunky at lower levels.

Why I would recommend Duskblade is to put it to you this way: Will you be playing a 16th level or higher character in most campaigns? High level spells only matter if you spend your time playing high level characters. If your DM likes to start at level one, and you want to be a gish sometime before you hit level 6 or so, Duskblade is a great way to be one, right away.

2. Theoretical question: Once a duskblade makes in into epic levels, is there any way for them to develop epic spellcasting without having to take 17 levels of wizard, cleric, or druid? Or are they doomed to epic mediocrity like all the other non-full-casters?

Nope, by epic rules you're limited to the same advancement table as always. You cannot take Epic Spellcasting. You do not pass Go. You do not collect $200.

It sucks because there are plenty of half caster classes out there that deserve to advance their spellcasting as well. It's quite the cause célèbre for non-fullcasters because it means they are entirely outmoded in epic levels. Why wouldn't, for example, an epic Assassin continue to gain access to more powerful assassin spells? Hexblades, paladins, and bards are all in the same boat on this subject.

[Bauglir]

Jasdoif's got a solution, and I'm sure it works. You have 9th level spell slots. You can thus cast 9th level spells. If your DM insists on having an actual 9th level spell, grab Arcane Disciple and call it a day.

[Jack_Simth]

2. Theoretical question: Once a duskblade makes in into epic levels, is there any way for them to develop epic spellcasting without having to take 17 levels of wizard, cleric, or druid? Or are they doomed to epic mediocrity like all the other non-full-casters?

They can, they just need to take Improved Spell Capacity a few times first (as the Bard, Ranger, or Paladin would).

[Aquillion]

I'm not sure how "legal" this is...but you could try taking Improved Spell Capacity four times to get a 9th-level slot, take Heighten Spell to be able to prepare a 9th-level spell in the resulting 9th-level slot via Heightening some spell of your choice, and then claim to your DM that you're able to cast 9th-level spells.

Yes, and it only takes four epic feats, plus one non-epic feat, totalling roughly 12 or 15 levels!

You would be better off going wizard for 17 levels after you go epic. Heck, you could go wizard and take improved spell capacity, and you'd still hit 9th level casting faster -- 11 epic levels instead of 12. And you'd be much more powerful in the end, of course.

[Rutee]

You would be better off going wizard for 17 levels after you go epic. Heck, you could go wizard and take improved spell capacity, and you'd still hit 9th level casting faster -- 11 epic levels instead of 12. And you'd be much more powerful in the end, of course.

I thought you couldn't gain new Class Features after 20? Or was that just a really bad dream and I imagined that line?

[Frosty]

I thought you couldn't gain new Class Features after 20? Or was that just a really bad dream and I imagined that line?

I'm sure you're just imagining that one Rutee

[Jasdoif]

I thought you couldn't gain new Class Features after 20? Or was that just a really bad dream and I imagined that line?

You don't gain new class features after level 20 in a class, no. You can, however, take levels in a new class and that works as normal...except that you get the epic BAB and save progression instead of whatever progressions the class has.