A solution to a common problem...

[itsmeyouidiot]

There seem to be a lot of jokes about the exact meaning of "level."

A probable solution: have the characters start playing nethack.

In nethack, the floor of the dungeon is called "dungeon level." The level of your character's overall ability is called "experience level."

This is also joked about in nethack through the potion of gain level, which does different things depending on if it's cursed.

A blessed or uncursed potion of gain level will increase your experience level.

A cursed potion, however, will cause you to rise through the dungeon ceiling to the floor above, making you gain a dungeon level. (This is potentially useful if one needs to quickly scale the elemental planes with the Amulet of Yendor, which prevents level teleporting.)

[David Argall]

Not a good solution. We need to just stop using one word for so many things.

We might change to

Dungeon level = level
Character level = circle
Spell level = power

Alternatives are available of course, but the solution is just to stop overworking "level".

[Tempest Fennac]

Is it that much of a problem?Considering the context differences when he word "level" is used for charater, spell and dungeon levels, I wouldn't have thought that anyone would get confused about the difference ona regular basis.

[Renx]

Is it that much of a problem?Considering the context differences when he word "level" is used for charater, spell and dungeon levels, I wouldn't have thought that anyone would get confused about the difference ona regular basis.

Agreed, I don't see how you could have an actual problem with it. I mean, sure, you can play around with it but since I've never had a problem with it I didn't "locate teh funnay" when this issue arose in the comic. I guess it emerges when people are doing something else than paying attention during the game.

Oh well.

Kudos for solving a problem that didn't exist, though.

[Nikolai_II]

The solution would be to read past the first fifty comics in the archive ;)

Yes, there were some level-based jokes in the beginning, and they were fun. Still, too much of them wouldn't have been fun, but Rich didn't fall into that trap and has moved on a lot since..

[Calinero]

Well, if it were actually a problem, you could refer to dungeon levels as floors, and be sure to always say 'spell levels'. Because I don't think anyone is actually dim enough to start spelling the word 'level.'

[Mauve Shirt]

Heh. Roy was.

[lothos]

I agree that the context in which "Level" is used usually makes it very clear, so I don't really see a problem myself.

However, something that might interest some people is the following, which I'm quoting from the 1st Edition AD&D Players manual, the last paragraph on page 8. This shows that the problem was considered almost 30 years ago in 1979 when the book was first published:

"It was initially contemplated to term character power as rank, spell complexity was to be termed Power, and monster strength was to be termed Order. Thus instead of a 9th level character encountering a 7th level monster on the 8th level of a dungeon and attaching it with a 4th level spell, the terminology would have been: A 9th rank character encountered a 7th order monster on the 8th (dungeon) level and attacked it with a 4th power spell. However because of existing usage, level is retained throughout with all four meanings, and it is not as confusing as it may now seem."


To be honest, I'm not quite sure why they included this information in the players handbook back then, it didn't really do anything to clarify the section immediately preceding it on that page explaining the 4 possible levels of meaning. When I first read this about 20 years ago I thought "perhaps we should use those other terms in our campaign", but since everyone I knew then was "migrating" from basic D&D and the books all used level for everything , we just stuck with level.

I guess it's the eternal problem of once you have a naming convention that lots of people agree on, it's hard to change it without a really convincing reason.

(No intent to infringe the TSR / Wizards of the coast copyright is intended by quoting the 1st edition players manual. No I couldn't remember it, I got the old copy out of the loft to type this in ).

[David Argall]

Is it that much of a problem?Considering the context differences when he word "level" is used for charater, spell and dungeon levels, I wouldn't have thought that anyone would get confused about the difference ona regular basis.

That it is not a major problem does not mean it is not a problem, particularly when it is one with an easy solution.

[Newtkeeper]

While this is not a problem in need of a solution (context, my friend, is helpful), there is no wrong reason to play Nethack, so it's all to the good. Gotta go find that amulet now.

[Morgan Wick]

I seem to recall only two jokes on the divergent meanings of "level", one of which was a reference to the other.

[Ascension]

My only problem is differentiating "caster level" and "spell level"... if they had a nice common factor and progressed in a consistent manner one could derive one from the other by simple division, but as it is you need to consult tables to figure out what level of spells your character can cast... and whoever had the bright idea to put the bonus-spells-from-attributes table, the spells-known table and the spells-per-day table on different pages... one in an entirely different section of the book... should be fired. And then rehired. And then fired again.

[Illiander]

My only problem is differentiating "caster level" and "spell level"... if they had a nice common factor and progressed in a consistent manner one could derive one from the other by simple division, but as it is you need to consult tables to figure out what level of spells your character can cast... and whoever had the bright idea to put the bonus-spells-from-attributes table, the spells-known table and the spells-per-day table on different pages... one in an entirely different section of the book... should be fired. And then rehired. And then fired again.

It´s actually pretty straightforward math (much simpler than differentiation, which is pretty simple really, the tables are just multipliers, addition and rounding, with a couple of exceptions in some), it´s just that they decided to omit the equations, because for most people, a table is simpler to understand, and the equations would of been large (note: LARGE, not COMPLICATED or HARD).
For example:
Bonus spells: (Prime_Casting_Stat_Modifier - Spell_Level + 1) / 4 Rounded up.

[John Campbell]

A cursed potion, however, will cause you to rise through the dungeon ceiling to the floor above, making you gain a dungeon level. (This is potentially useful if one needs to quickly scale the elemental planes with the Amulet of Yendor, which prevents level teleporting.)

The Elemental Planes aren't levels, as such; you can't pass between them with cursed gain level (or any method other than stepping into the portal, in fact). Cursed gain level does work for climbing up through the main dungeon, but if you're carrying the Amulet, it's subject to mysterious force in Gehennom just like climbing the stairs is. That being the case, I generally just cross between the stairs normally, or teleport to the up-stairs, using the massive pile of scrolls I've accumulated that don't work in the Planes anyway, rather than hoarding (or alchemizing) and cursing rare potions that're useful for other things.

Cursed gain level is useful for bypassing the more annoying no-teleport levels, particularly Juiblex's Swamp, but given the likelihood that you'll get thrown back and have to do it again (and again, and again...), it's really not worth it.

[Roderick_BR]

Wait, it's a solution, or a way to make things more confusing?
Specially because D&D *alerady* uses level to distinguish which floor they are.

Funny note: In the Brazilian version of D&D (I've seen it in AD&D and 3.x), spell levels were translated into "círculos" (circles).