How do Domain Wizards compare to Specialist Wizards?

[Tempest Fennac]

Are Domain Wizards (detailed on http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...terClasses.htm ) more or less powerful then Specialists? While not being able to chose different spells for the bonus slot could be limiting, I would have thought that not needing to bar any schools (while getting the Domain spells for free) would make up for it to a degree. What does everyone else think about this variant?

[Nebo_]

If you're allowed to take this, and you don't, you're either stupid or you're a masochist.

Gain: Good things. Lose: Nothing.

Simple, eh?

[Talic]

Well, it gives you easier access to Wall of Force, but otherwise, a specialist mage has plenty of versatility even WITH the 2 banned schools. Opening up more spells doesn't really improve power... Just let's you gain that power in more ways.

In short: Gain good things for nothing
OR
Gain better things for a small price

It's your call, but I say the decision is one that lets you have a bit of flexibility.

Now Elven Wizard Substitution works favorably with domain wizard, though.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Depends a lot on the domain. Some are powerful in the right level range, you just have to decide if the spells will be useful every day.

[TheDright]

I have heard, despite never playing one, that the inability to choose your extra spell at each level is more than made up for by the lack of barred schools.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point, Sstoopidtallkid. Which Domains would you say are the best in general? In regards to Talic's point, I was thinking more about the fact that some schools of magic which people would normally ban may contain 2 or 3 spells which they would want in regards to versatillity.

[Turcano]

Which Domains would you say are the best in general?

From a glance, most the actual school domains seem to be decent; which one in particular is the best probably depends on your gaming style. The non-school ones, on the other hand, are pretty lame, and the evocation domain is really lame.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Domain Wizard variant is a powerful alternative to specialisation. Bonus spell slots that can only be filled with polymorph and its ilks? AND it's free? Yes please

[Talic]

Ok, for banned schools, the first two are usually Evocation and Enchantment.

Evocation has Wall of Force... and that's about it. Gainable with shadow evocation, later.

Enchantment has a lot of good will save spells... But most don't work with either the protection of a Protection from X or mindblank. And name a spell in enchantment that another will save spell from another school can't work just as well in.

Third, if you're focused specializing, is a bit harder. Either Necromancy or Abjuration are the two main choices, and both kinda hurt. Abjuration costs you Mage Armor, and Dispel Magic, among others. Necromancy costs you a lot of good high power Save-or-Lose spells, most notably Enervation.

Still, you can get by without either. It's a bit rougher, but when you look at the benefit (+3 spells from your school - which should likely be Transmutation, maybe conjuration), you can build a lot of flexibility from those.

Even banning Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy, you still have a plethora of defensive magic, combat control, and SoL for all the main areas. Thus, the build is still flexible and versatile, with more casting ability.

As for the spells you can't cast? They're nice, but they're extraneous. You can sacrifice them, with good spell selection, and not lose any power or versatility.

Thus, the notion of giving up versatility is an illusion. There are over 1,000 spells produced for 3.5. If you can't populate a good spell list with only 700 of them? Something's wrong.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point about the number of spells (don't forget that not everyone has internet access and all the optional books, though). Also, Mage Armour is Conjuraion for some reason (Shield is an Abjuration).

[Kurald Galain]

I have heard, despite never playing one, that the inability to choose your extra spell at each level is more than made up for by the lack of barred schools.

On the contrary, after looking over it I'd say that the barred schools are more than made up for by the ability to choose your extra spell at each level.

Look at it like this: if you're optimizing, you're not going to need all eight schools, since some of them are superfluous (e.g. both enchantment and necromancy have a lot of save-or-lose spells) or ineffective (evocation, in particular), and you really want to be able to memorize a very good spell in each slot, which in too many cases isn't the domain spell. Focused specialist can be surprisingly effective because of the added amount of spells per day.

If you're not optimizing but playing a flavorful character of your choice, then most of the time you're not going to be using all eight schools anyway, and you'll probably want to be able to pick your favorite spells for every slot, which again in too many cases isn't the domain spell. Focused specialist is likely a bit difficult to play, unless you're really into one particular school.

That said, looking over the domains:
I think the abjuration and anti-magic domains are poor choices because they have too many situational spells that you simply won't be using often enough to memorize every day. Likewise, divination, necromancy, and storm.

The battle domain is decent if you're the party buffer. Not great, but decent.

The cold domain is simply ineffective; it's a blast domain with poorly-chosen blast spells. Likewise, evocation. If you want a blaster, the fire domain offers the best spell selection, with storm as a second choice. In any case you'll probably want a metamagic feat to swap the damage to another element.

The transmutation domain contains several polymorph spells and deserves to be banned for that reason. The other spells in there are too situational.

Conjuration is a solid choice, as is enchantment, and illusion (and its shadow evocation allows you a lot of versatility). If I had to play a domain wizard, I'd pick one of those three.

[Chronos]

Evocation has Wall of Force... and that's about it. Gainable with shadow evocation, later.

Remember, shadow evocation always allows a Will save to disbelieve (which completely negates non-damaging effects) and spell resistance, which means that there's a good chance an enemy can just walk right through your Wall of Force. Which eliminates the point of Wall of Force in the first place.

Evocation also has Wind Wall, Shatter, Sending, and Contingency, too, all of which are nice things to have. Not worth enough to not give up the school, but if you don't have to give up a school, great.

As for the wizard domains, you don't need the best spell from each level for them to be worthwhile. All you need is at least one spell from each level (including metamagicked versions of lower-level domain spells) that you'd be likely to prepare anyway. This is pretty much true for the Conjuration domain or the Transmutation domain, so either of those is basically one free slot per level (the same benefit as specialization) for no cost. Remember, if you're preparing Mage Armor in one of your domain slots, that means that you don't have to prepare it in a normal slot like you probably would have, so that normal slot you would have used for Mage Armor is free for you to put anything at all in.

[Talic]

That is a good point about the number of spells (don't forget that not everyone has internet access and all the optional books, though). Also, Mage Armour is Conjuraion for some reason (Shield is an Abjuration).

Priority list for Wizards/Arcanes (in order, IMHO):

Spell Compendium
Complete Mage (Yes, before Comp Arc. Spells, Feats, and variants are awesome)
Complete Arcane
Sandstorm
Frostburn
Races of the Dragon
Dragon Magic

If you take that in order, the first 1-3 books will make you strong. The next 4 will give you tasty flavor.

[Talic]

That is a good point about the number of spells (don't forget that not everyone has internet access and all the optional books, though). Also, Mage Armour is Conjuraion for some reason (Shield is an Abjuration).

Priority list for Wizards/Arcanes (in order, IMHO):

Spell Compendium
Complete Mage (Yes, before Comp Arc. Spells, Feats, and variants are awesome)
Complete Arcane
Sandstorm
Frostburn
Races of the Dragon
Dragon Magic

If you take that in order, the first 1-3 books will make you strong. The next 4 will give you tasty flavor.

On a side note: If you're specializing, you can make decent wizards out of the following schools:

• Divination (One banned school? Yes, please. I'll still take spell focus: transmutation, and an extra Div spell at every level is pretty good)
• Conjuration (One of the stronger schools of magic, you can never go wrong with this school)
• Evocation (Fewer good spells, but you can always find one decent one. Trouble is figuring out what to ditch)
• Transmutation (Arguably the strongest, most flexible school. Nuff said)
• Abjuration (Good spells at all levels, but not many people want to play that defensive)
• Illusion (This school is probably the second most powerful generally, though true seeing kicks it where it counts... hard)

Weak Schools to specialize in:

• Enchantment (Many creature types are outright immune to this school, and there's a level 1 spell that insulates you from most of it. In other words, easier to prevent than fire damage.)
• Necromancy (there are great spells in this school... But not enough at all levels. Better off specializing in something else, and getting Spell Focus: Necro for the good spells that you DO want)

[Kantolin]

I don't see why people constantly mention the protection from line as common counters, when you're honestly not terribly likely to run into oodles and oodles of monsters/enemies/NPCs who have them. So sure, taking enchantment marginally increases the chances that your DM will screw you with protection from, but that's not something that happens often enough to merit mentioning it.

Creatures that are flat immune to mind-effecting, now, do come up.

Personally, however, Enchantment's spells tend to be better than any other will save-spells you could opt for. At level 1, you could replace sleep with color spray, but the range of sleep makes it dramatically more useful at that point. Then you get things like dominate, which are strictly better than actually killing your target - getting a buddy for day/level is far, far more useful than killing them.

So while you could replace them, I'd much rather just get a spell per spell level for free and not have to, especially if the vast majority of spells on the domain are spells I would've casted anyway. That frees me up to cherry pick the useful spells from each school.

So eh. Sure, you can probably 'afford to give up' several schools, but you could instead have your cake and eat it too with domain wizards.

[Emperor Tippy]

If your DM will let you get Domain Wizard it's worth it.

Grey Elf with Elf Generalist Sub Level, Spontaneous Divination Alternate Class Feature, and Domain Wizard is very nice.

Spontaneous Divination + Domain Wizard has the same end effect of specializing in Divination for the cost of a feat instead of a school (and even Evocation is worth more than 1 feat). Add in Elf Generalist and you pick up the nice stuff from that for no loss.

Now if you go Incantatrix and specialized in anything besides Divination to start with you will end up out 3 schools, which is really a bit much (although it is certainly playable). But if you have grabbed Elf Generalist, Spontaneous Divination, and Domain Wizard then you just end up giving up Evocation. And if you take the Evocation Domain you can gain back 2 of the better evocations (Wall of Force and Telekinetic Sphere).

So, basically, in almost every case your better off with Spontaneous Divination + Domain Wizard vs. specializing.

[Chronos]

I don't see why people constantly mention the protection from line as common counters, when you're honestly not terribly likely to run into oodles and oodles of monsters/enemies/NPCs who have them.

Oh, sure, most enemies don't have any magic at all. But most of the mid-to-high outsiders get Protection from <alignment> for free, and any enemy with levels in a spellcasting class (or who has an ally with levels in a spellcasting class) is likely to have it up, since it's only a first-level spell.

Personally, however, Enchantment's spells tend to be better than any other will save-spells you could opt for. At level 1, you could replace sleep with color spray, but the range of sleep makes it dramatically more useful at that point.

Don't forget that Sleep has a full-round casting time. Better hope that none of those orcs is smart enough to charge past the guy in full plate with a sword to attack the guy in a dress who's mumbling gibberish.

[Cuddly]

Specializing is more painful when you have access to fewer books. The more books you are willing to pirate buy, the easier it is to give up schools.

So if all you're working off is core and the SRD, then the domain variant is good. Just pick a domain where you think you'll be using that spell every day.

[Kurald Galain]

Grey Elf with Elf Generalist Sub Level, Spontaneous Divination Alternate Class Feature, and Domain Wizard is very nice.

Well, yes, but that assumes your DM will let you combine three different alternate versions of the wizard, that come from different books and have contradictory fluff, and top it off with a nonstandard race with an int bonus.

Yes, it's a nice combo, and RAW legal, but note that Spontaneous Divination and being a Grey Elf work fine in any wizard build (including, for some reason, a non-divination specialist), as does taking a lot of spells in some school and then later banning that school with incantatrix.

On the other hand, if you're interested in taking Archmage levels, a good lead-in for that is the Focused Specialist prestige class, which unsurprisingly requires that you're a specialist.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well, yes, but that assumes your DM will let you combine three different alternate versions of the wizard, that come from different books and have contradictory fluff, and top it off with a nonstandard race with an int bonus.

None of the fluff is contradictory for any of the things I stacked. As for being a non standard race, it's a core race.

Yes, it's a nice combo, and RAW legal, but note that Spontaneous Divination and being a Grey Elf work fine in any wizard build (including, for some reason, a non-divination specialist),

Spontaneous Divination is actually a much better choice for non divination specialists.

as does taking a lot of spells in some school and then later banning that school with incantatrix.

Whether or not you can do that is debatable.

On the other hand, if you're interested in taking Archmage levels, a good lead-in for that is the Focused Specialist prestige class, which unsurprisingly requires that you're a specialist.

Your better off with Elf and just Embrace/Shun some of your worthless proficiencies to meet the feat requirements for archmage.

[Eikre]

If you have Complete Champion (Which, I'll be fair and say, is a book that pushed the envelope of balence just a bit farther than comfort probably needed), then the fifth-level substitution level for wizards, Spontaneous Divination, coupled with being a Domain wizard, is strictly better than specializing in Divination.

You get the free spells that a Diviner gets. You have to fill those slots with nine pre-selected spells, but it doesn't matter, because you can spontaneously turn them into Divinations. Not just that, though: You don't have to give up a school of magic, just a feat, and you don't have to prepare the divinations. You don't learn an extra divination every level, but you get every single divination spell, even ones on other class lists, open to you, and you don't need to have them in your book anyway. Learn Heighten Spell, and then you can prepare Read Magic in all your slots when you don't have your spellbook.

Neat, right? Only a Master Specialist would choose to do it otherwise.

EDIT: Looks like I got slow-ninja'd. That's what I get for leaving the tab open. Still, I went into detail, the other bloke didn't. Nah-nah-nah!

[Talic]

To echo Tippy, it's a core race with Favored Class: Wizard, no less.

As for Enchantment being "Better" will saves, meh. For someone to say that most encounters won't have "Prot X" in them, I answer, Almost every caster player uses them.

Why wouldn't caster non-players? Are such NPC's considered idiots? I think not. Most of my pc's have it, so most of my caster NPC's will. It protects against many summoned critters, most enchantment. That's 1.5 schools for a level 1 spell.

I'm not saying Domain wizard is bad. Quite the opposite. It's actually quite good. Tippy's illustrated that (though much like my arguement, it uses two of the better abilities to round out the build, namely, spontaneous divination and generalist wizard).

Further, immune creatures are rather prolific. Low levels? Anything that's not humanoids, or has 5+HD. Add in vermin, undead, constructs, oozes, etc etc. Those are at all levels.Now, constructs and oozes aren't so common... But undead is often a staple enemy, like goblins, orcs, or the like. Vermin are similarly often used as filler.

I prefer not to build my spell list on the assumption of DM kindness. I'd rather build it on a basis of personal effectiveness.

As for Other will Save-or-Lose? There's a reason that the speak with dead spell exists. And dominate does not make something your "buddy". It forces it to comply. Expect the maximum amount of resistance you can possibly get from affected creatures, including evasive answers, incomplete answers, misleading answers, following the letter of your instructions, rather than the spirit, etc etc. I expect any critter you dominate? Likely hates you with the passion of 1,000 burning suns.

[Kantolin]

Almost every caster player spends either a sorceror spell known or memorizes daily... protection from? Spend a turn in combat to get a +2 AC bonus, as it doesn't last long enough to use otherwise?

Gee. I suppose you play with different everybodies than I do. I'd hammer them as they spent their first turn in combat using a comparatively minor buff.

In addition, if everyone has protection from up, then that means nobody there should cast enchantment spells - they never work. If nobody is casting enchantment spells, then the protection from series stops being quite as relevant. It's a nifty cycle.

And dominate does not make something your "buddy". It forces it to comply. Expect the maximum amount of resistance you can possibly get from affected creatures, including evasive answers, incomplete answers, misleading answers, following the letter of your instructions, rather than the spirit, etc etc. I expect any critter you dominate? Likely hates you with the passion of 1,000 burning suns.

Yes, but even someone simply carrying your things is superior to a blank spot. It's not hard to have someone do a single task for you.

Worst-case scenario, they're 'dead' (or in a situation where it's very easy to make them dead). More likely case scenario, they're giving you some form of aid in the short-term.

So peh. I'm not even suggesting you focus yourself on being an enchanter, just that having an enchantment spell or two can be very useful. You wouldn't memorize dominate when going to Undeadland, but you wouldn't memorize a lot of things when going to undeadland. It's just that specialization gets you an extra spell per level while banning a couple schools, compared to domain wizards which... get you an extra spell per level without banning a couple schools.

It really seems like a no-brainer if you have the option to pick.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Are such NPC's considered idiots? I think not.

Apparently so. I've been told on more then one occasion that only BBEGs should fight with tactics/make smart spell choices/perform any tactics that involve avoiding death when possible.

[Talic]

Because nobody can find a way to quicken a level 1 spell? Or persist it? We really must be playing with different groups. (Let's see, Rod of Quicken (lesser), circlet of rapid casting, Belt of battle, DMM Persist, or even extend, or cast before going into a dangerous area. At mid level (10) it lasts almost 2 hours, which is a pretty good window of protection. At upper levels, if you don't want to quicken it, you can summon any of numerous creatures that radiate the more powerful Circle of Protection quite easily.)

As for your "no brainer". Let's see. Bonus spell with no flexibility whatsoever (unless you're a spontaneous diviner), or bonus spell that can be any of over 100 spells?

Or, let's go focused specialist as an example. 1 spell, that's chosen for you, or 3 spells, that you choose yourself? Again, several people down focused spec for the 3 school giveup, but if you can't make an effective list with the absolute plethora of spells out there with 5 schools? Something's wrong.

That "no brainer" is kinda going away. Seems like 2 valid and effective routes to take a wizard.

[Talic]

Apparently so. I've been told on more then one occasion that only BBEGs should fight with tactics/make smart spell choices/perform any tactics that involve avoiding death when possible.

I know that personally, all MY NPC wizards memorize Magic missile in every slot from level 1 on up. Higher levels are memorized as maximized, empowered, or both. And about a dozen quicken rods, so they can cast them all.

[Frosty]

You're a fool not to take spontaneous divination. You can spontaneously cast divinations from ANY class, not just the wizard/sorc spell list!! This is HUGE.

[Chronos]

Yeah, but even with all of the splatbooks out there, you're still likely to prepare Mage Armor, Web, Stinking Cloud, Acid Fog, Maze, Gate, Mage Hand, Haste, Polymorph, Baleful Polymorph, Disintegrate, and Shapechange on any given day. That's most of the Conjuration domain or most of the Transmutation domain right there. And Acid Splash, Summon Monster IV, Wall of Stone, and Summon Monster VII aren't exactly terrible, either. Nor are Expeditious Retreat, Levitate, Reverse Gravity, or Iron Body. Or you could just fill those subpar levels with metamagicked versions of other levels' spells.

Or, of course, you could take some other domain, to get some other spells more to your liking. Including possibly some that aren't normally available to wizards. I've yet to hear of a 5th-level wizard spell that can kill armies as efficiently as Control Winds (storm domain), for instance.

[Talic]

You're quite right. As a domain specialist, you'll just get LESS of those than a focused specialist will.

The point is, the wizard's strength lies in versatility.

I'd rather personally take 70% of the spells out there, and choose 30 spells...

Than take 100%, and choose 20.

With as many spells as there are, I can get more flexibility and versatility out of the first choice. More spells memorized = More flexibility.

Yes, at character creation, you may choose a domain that you like. From then on out, every day of your adventuring life, those are your bonus spells.

If a transmutation specialist changes his mind based on an encounters he's seen in the area or divination? He'll still have good and relevant spells for any encounter.

The reason domains don't get the flexibility is that they're forced to choose what they get.

And, for the record, "army spells" or, as I call them, "bully spells", they're usually a trap. A lot like fireball.

By the time you can use them, the enemies that they'll kill are too weak to be a relevant CR.

[Reel On, Love]

Guys, the number of spells doesn't matter. What matters is the really good spells availible. Banned Evocation? Can't cast Radiant Assault. Banned Enchantment? Can't cast Irresistible Dance. Banned Necromancy, god forbid? Can't cast Avasculate, Enervation, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc.