Shadow Sun Ninja

[Mushroom Ninja]

I want to make a monk/shadow sun ninja. It's probably not the most powerful combination ever, but I think it would be fun. I was wondering how I can get the most out of the combination. I was thinking of using weapon finesse and shadow blade, but I'm open to suggestions.

[Eldariel]

Dip a few levels in Unarmed Swordsage to get some maneuvers from across the schools (and to qualify for SSN). Focus on mobility-moves and feel free to pick up Sun School-feat along with Snap Kick for some handy extra attacks from your teleportation abilities. Once you get SSN 10, you can start ripping people up.

Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade is good. Dex/Wis basis works although you could just go mainly Wis with Intuitive Attack (you're Lawful Good anyways due to alignment restrictions of SSN and Monk) to use the Wis-save maneuvers. Either way works; if you focus on Dex, use no-save maneuvers along with normal attacks (boosts are a good way to go with full attacks). I'd dip one additional level of Swordsage later to pick up the Pouncing Charge-maneuver from Tiger Claw; it really fixes the usual issue with Flurry of Blows.

Don't forget Adaptive Style. Makes use of your massive maneuver count (pick some sitiuationally useful ones; Emerald Razor, Counter Charge, Burning Blade, so on) and to recover your maneuvers faster.


One way to go could be Shadow Pounce; Telflammar Shadowlord and Crinti Shadow Marauder both give you full attack on each teleport (and are FR specific). Then again, that may be a bit overkillish. Straight ToB/Monk SSN is just fine.

[Mushroom Ninja]

good idea! Btw, will SSN screw up my monk leveling?

[Talya]

good idea! Btw, will SSN screw up my monk leveling?

Check out the SSN entry "Monk Abilities." SSN stacks with monk for class based AC bonus, unarmed damage, unarmed speed bonus, flurry of blows progression, and number of daily uses of stunning fist.

It actually makes monk rather appealling...you get the main monk abilities essentially for free.

Technically, the swordsage wisdom to AC stacks with monk wisdom to AC...which is dumb. Your DM should veto that and just have swordsage continue the monk AC progression instead, as SSN does. Unarmed Swordsage also continues your unarmed strike damage progression.

Interestingly, a VoP might work with this combo, if allowed. You get a lot of neat "Wuxia" style abilities as a swordsage/SSN...meaning you wouldn't be so limited by the lack of items--you can duplicate many effects you want as a martial adept.

[Eldariel]

It prevents you from gaining new levels in Monk by RAW, yes. You could talk with your DM about it, but really, it won't be relevant before ~level 16 when you've finished SSN (Monk 4/Unarmed Swordsage 2/SSN 10), and really, at that point I'd just rather take more Unarmed Swordsage levels. You already have all the goodies you want from Monk, save maybe level 6 feat thanks to SSN giving you Flurry advancement and all your classes giving full Unarmed Damage Progression.


Oh yeah, another method of gaining (Unarmed) Pounce through Magic of Incarnum with two feats:
-Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws
-Open Least Chakra: Hands

Bind Sphinx Claws to your Hands Chakra with no Essentia and you'll get +1 to all Strength-checks and the ability to Pounce with all natural weapons.

[Gralamin]

Technically, the swordsage wisdom to AC stacks with monk wisdom to AC...which is dumb. Your DM should veto that and just have swordsage continue the monk AC progression instead, as SSN does. Unarmed Swordsage also continues your unarmed strike damage progression.

Technically, the Swordsage's Wisdom to AC only works while in Light Armor, and the Monk's only works when Unarmored...which in itself is dumb.

[Talya]

Unless you're using the popular variant that has 3/4 BAB classes stack for BAB purposes, I'd actually skip the SSN's last two levels. (I don't like the downside to the SSN's capstone ability anyway.) End up with either 4 monk, 8 swordsage, 8 ssn, or 8 monk, 4 swordsage, 8 ssn.

There's also a feat that lets a monk multiclass freely with another class, although it won't help once you have both swordsage and SSN.

[Talya]

Technically, the Swordsage's Wisdom to AC only works while in Light Armor, and the Monk's only works when Unarmored...which in itself is dumb.

Yes, that's poorly worded in the swordsage description, too. Especially when the unarmed adaptation loses light armor proficiency.

[Eldariel]

Unless you're using the popular variant that has 3/4 BAB classes stack for BAB purposes, I'd actually skip the SSN's last two levels. (I don't like the downside to the SSN's capstone ability anyway.) End up with either 4 monk, 8 swordsage, 8 ssn, or 8 monk, 4 swordsage, 8 ssn.

There's also a feat that lets a monk multiclass freely with another class, although it won't help once you have both swordsage and SSN.

Note that SSN's capstone requires activation (including the Negative Level), so it's at worst an even trade, and you still get a new Maneuver Readied along with Flurry, Unarmed Attack Bonus, AC bonus and speed bonus from it. Oh yeah, and full initiator level. I find it very much worth it, especially since SSN 10 is epic ready. And really, the final ability is incredible, +4 on all attacks with shadow, the ability to heal yourself while evinscerating opponents with your insane Unarmed Damage and penalties to EVERYTHING. Hide bonuses, immunity to criticals, mind-affecting and so on... But yea, if not using fractional BAB*, I suppose losing a point of BAB is painful.

*[rant]Which is really like it shoulda been in PHB in the first place if the lazy effers didn't eff it up with a system that basically just effs multiclassing in the eye, which specifically is the major new feature of 3.X! Effin' effers; they effed saves up too, the bastards. Thank Wee Jas for UA and SRD making the variant commonly available.[/rant]

[Person_Man]

A one level dip in Warlock and the Blend into Shadows feat (Drow of the Underdark) will get you Hide in Plain Site as a Swift Action every turn, as long as you're within 10 feet of an area of magical darkness (which you can cast infinitely, and the spell lasts for 10 minutes per level). By itself, this will make you impossible to target with anything except for area of effect attacks. (Though keep in mind that your DM is free to impose sniping or situational penalties. So be sure to pump your Hide check to ridiculous levels by being a small Whisper Gnome or variant Kobold, using magic items, dipping Marshal, Factotum, and/or Exemplar, etc). Combined with SSN, and your enemies must Save or be Blinded every turn. Pick up the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness) so that you can Hide against enemies with blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense.

Necropolitan is a +1 LA-ish template from Libris Mortis that makes you undead without changing your alignment. Undead are healed by negative energy. Combined with SSN, you now have infinite healing for you and your party.

[Vortling]

To the OP, Is there some monk specific ability that your character can't live without? Otherwise I'd suggest going with straight Unarmed Swordsage as it has a decidedly monk flavor.

[Eldariel]

To the OP, Is there some monk specific ability that your character can't live without? Otherwise I'd suggest going with straight Unarmed Swordsage as it has a decidedly monk flavor.

Monk 2 gives 2 feats, Evasion and enough levels for full Flurry at SSN 9. Also, the extra speed and AC bonuses can be nice. I'd probably take at least 2 levels of Monk since else you'll be feat starved and get Evasion very late.

[Talya]

yeah, if using fractional BAB, i would probably go Monk 2, unarmed swordsage adaptation 8, SSN 10 (not necessarily in that order).

You know, with ToB...Vow of Poverty actually looks really good. There's no equipment you lose that either the vow doesn't give you better, or you can't replace with maneuvers.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah. Except the most critical one: Flight. Yeah, there's the delicious Balance in the sky, but that comes in VERY late, and denies you of Stance of Alacrity, which is SWEET.

Other than that, though, it IS rather viable.

[Talya]

Yeah. Except the most critical one: Flight. Yeah, there's the delicious Balance in the sky, but that comes in VERY late, and denies you of Stance of Alacrity, which is SWEET.

Other than that, though, it IS rather viable.

Two great ways around that:

1) Play a raptorran.
2) Play in a party that has someone that can make you fly.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Raptorans are kinda meh unless you use buyoff rules. If you do, it's recommended.

The wizard thing can be tricky, because many wizards prepare EXACTLY ONE flight spell, for themselves, but it can work.

As I said, though, it's a nice idea.

[Talya]

forgot -
3) Take martial Stance feat at 18, get both. (With the understanding you can only use one at a time.) Or use your trade-out-a-maneuver at every even level to swap a stance known at 18 or 20.

[SamTheCleric]

Or just pick up some Winged Boots...

[Talya]

Raptorans are kinda meh unless you use buyoff rules. If you do, it's recommended.

I made this mistake once here, and was corrected.

Raptorans have no level adjustment.

[Azerian Kelimon]

HD, then? I'm pretty sure it was even stated as a design philosophy once, that wings were NEVER to be obtainable for free, requiring some significant sacrifice to obtain.

[Eldariel]

Dragonborn work just fine too. Also, Raptorans have no LA. Also worth noting that the Monk speed bonuses apply to any mode of movement so you'll fly pretty fast. Nowhere near as fast as Large Dragons, but faster than Wizards with Fly-spell.

And yea, Balance in the Sky comes level 15 at the earliest (generally 16, which is kinda late. If you can make do with Fly and such by then though, more power to you.


The other classic VoP issue is passing DR, most difficult being the metal-base immunities with the common solution being Kensai 2 (using Exalted Bonus as the base enhancement to get Metalline). Also, hitting Incorporeals consistently would be good, but I can really only come up with Kensai 3 for Ghost Touch.

[Talya]

Or just pick up some Winged Boots...

Uh...we're discussing how the Vow of Poverty works fairly well with a monk/swordsage/shadow sun ninja. Winged boots aren't an option. ;)

[SamTheCleric]

Oh. Right... I missed that whole VoP part.

I'll second Raptoran... they get flight based on HD.. (starts out as just a jump check bonus... which is nice for those Tiger maneuvers)... I think it becomes flight around 10 HD or so.

Also, the Dragonwraught Kobolds get wings and flight based off of HD, don't they?

[Talya]

HD, then? I'm pretty sure it was even stated as a design philosophy once, that wings were NEVER to be obtainable for free, requiring some significant sacrifice to obtain.

Raptorans don't start with true flight, and are never very good at it without feats.

[Talya]

The other classic VoP issue is passing DR,

With the huge variety of maneuvers you have, there's a few stone dragon strikes you should have which would help there.

[The_Snark]

HD, then? I'm pretty sure it was even stated as a design philosophy once, that wings were NEVER to be obtainable for free, requiring some significant sacrifice to obtain.

No, no HD. They have wings, but they can't do anything more than glide at the beginning of the game, and they get a limited amount of flight time at level 5 or so. That limit vanishes when they hit 10, but it's a fly speed of 30 with average maneuverability... which isn't too great as fly speeds go. By that time, a lot of enemies will fly and most challenges can't be overcome simply by flying (because Flight and Overland Flight are both already available.)

[Talya]

No, no HD. They have wings, but they can't do anything more than glide at the beginning of the game, and they get a limited amount of flight time at level 5 or so. That limit vanishes when they hit 10, but it's a fly speed of 30 with average maneuverability... which isn't too great as fly speeds go. By that time, a lot of enemies will fly and most challenges can't be overcome simply by flying (because Flight and Overland Flight are both already available.)

although, a raptoran monk 2, swordsage 8, ssn 10 ends up with a fly speed of 70. Three more monk levels gets you 80 feet. Another three gets you 90 feet, but then you've only got 2 levels of swordsage. :(

[Vortling]

forgot -
3) Take martial Stance feat at 18, get both. (With the understanding you can only use one at a time.) Or use your trade-out-a-maneuver at every even level to swap a stance known at 18 or 20.

I'm AFB right now but I don't believe you can swap stances with the trade out a maneuver option. I'll check later when I have access to books.

[SamTheCleric]

I'm AFB right now but I don't believe you can swap stances with the trade out a maneuver option. I'll check later when I have access to books.

This is correct, once you pick a stance, you're stuck with it.

[Mushroom Ninja]

If VoP was an option, I would certainly take it, but my group has had... experiences with VoP monks which I do not think they wish to repeat. I'm joining a preexisting game, so I'll be starting at 17th level. The reason I want to have levels in monk and not go straight swordsage/SSN is to get the full flurry as well as the flavor of a monk. I think I want to get a full 10 levels of SSN because, even if I don't sacrifice myself in a mad level-draining flurry, it gives me bonuses to attack and, to be honest, would be FREAKIN' AWESOME! An ability that turns your everyday monk into a black beast of destruction? FTW!