Party composition without PHB classes?

[Frosty]

If you're in a game where none of the PHB classes (except Fighter and Barbarian) nor their variants (such as the Paladin of Freedom found in the UA) are allowed, what class would you join the game as? The game is set at ECL 8, and your potential allies are all single-classed:

Crusader
Warmage
Beguiler

Books allowed:

PHB 1 and 2 (except for the PHB classes as mentioned above)
Races of Destiny
Unearthed Arcana
Tome of Battle
Tome of Magic
Heroes of Horror
Libris Mortis
Expanded Psionics Book
Draconomicon
Dragon Magic
Spell Compendium
Drow of the Underdark
All Completes except Complete Psionic

[MeklorIlavator]

Wu Gen or Psion. Gets some more versatility on the arcanish side, and with psion you could do some limited healing, though the crusader will likely be better. If you really feel the need for a divinist, spirit shaman or favored soul would work, but both can be a bit weak.

[cupkeyk]

The party needs a divine caster, Shugenja? Or Favored Soul?

[senrath]

If nothing that Meklor suggested sounds good, you can use a Warlock, since those are always fun.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The problem isn't the "No PHB", it's the fact that almost every party role is covered. You have lockdown (Crusader), healing (Crusader), damage (Warmage), skillmonkey (Beguiler), and battlefield control (Beguiler). Now, healing, skillmonkey, and battlefield control could benefit from having someone else taking up the some of the slack, as they are secondary to the classes abilities(especially battlefield control and healing), but there also appears to be no buffer/debuffer. An Artificer could handle all of that, and an Archivist could pick up anything but the skills, but both of those are cheesy, so you may want to look elsewhere. A Favored Soul is probably a good bet, for healing and buff/debuff.

[Eldariel]

Seems like a Gish-slot missing (along with the Wilderness-guy, but that's not really possible without PHB; you need Ranger or Druid for that). I'd go Psi Gish; possibly Erudite (with Spells as Powers - from Mind's Eye) > Slayer (as long as we ignore the stupidities in Erudite's wording preventing you from learning new powers, etc. Other potent option would be Chrono Legionnaireish mobility expert; doesn't kick in quite that early, but is a fully doable melee combatant and blaster and most importantly, a very mobile Gish.

One other good option would be Archivist/Sacred Exorcist (for Turn Undead)/Crusader (or Warblade) Ruby Knight Vindicator; would get you a solid support caster with both, great Arcane and Divine might while getting a valuable second frontliner too. Finally, Artificer 9. Any party is better with an Artificer. Or Archivist 7/Sacred Exorcist 2. Or maybe Archivist/RSoP.


Really, a Divinish Frontline Caster is what the party wants. Druid would fit all the bills - nature guy, (double) frontline beef, strong divine caster (then again, Druid usually does), but since that's not available, there's a bunch of 'next best things'.

Doing Glass Cannonish damage wouldn't hurt either as someone needs to pick up the slack for the Warmage.

[Glyphic]

Go Binder; find out what you need to do that day (or guess, or take rapid binding) and bind the apropos Vestige.

[Frosty]

The problem isn't the "No PHB", it's the fact that almost every party role is covered. You have lockdown (Crusader), healing (Crusader), damage (Warmage), skillmonkey (Beguiler), and battlefield control (Beguiler). Now, healing, skillmonkey, and battlefield control could benefit from having someone else taking up the some of the slack, as they are secondary to the classes abilities(especially battlefield control and healing), but there also appears to be no buffer/debuffer. An Artificer could handle all of that, and an Archivist could pick up anything but the skills, but both of those are cheesy, so you may want to look elsewhere. A Favored Soul is probably a good bet, for healing and buff/debuff.

Actually, Artificer and Archivist are banned as well. After some consideration, the DM said something about ithe 2 being too powerful.

Doing Glass Cannonish damage wouldn't hurt either as someone needs to pick up the slack for the Warmage.

Eldariel, what do you mean by that? Warmage doesn't cut it in the damage department?

[Squash Monster]

Wu Jen is a really fun class, and definitely would be up there with Wizard as one of the most powerful classes ever if Wizards actually supported all the extra base classes by giving out lists of what new spells should be available to them.

It also gets Solid Fog and such, so really it's one of the best battlefield control options you have available. It'd be my recommendation if you feel that you should be a different class from other party members.

However, you could also just play another Crusader and try to take different maneuvers than the other one. Having similar characters can be lots of fun if you play them as friendly rivals or war buddies.

[Frosty]

The Beguiler also gets Solid Fog already, and the Warmage has Evard's black Tentacles. The Crusader has a spiked chain. Is this party in need of more control do you think (serious question. no sarcasm here)?

[Vortling]

In that group I'd look at playing a Swordsage or a Duskblade. The former for scouting-skirmish warrior and the latter for secondary frontline damage dealer and arcane support.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I'd play a Factotum, but that's not in the list. Then a Archivist, but that's banned, then a Wu-Gen maybe. Or something else Battlfield controlly.

[Frosty]

I may be able to help my DM "acquire" Dungeonscape. In your opinion, why would the Factotum fit very well with this party, and what role would it fill?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Well the Factotum would be great because:

1) He can take a series of skill different then the Beguiler, granting them both a wider range of things to do.

2) He can serve the purpose of the usual Wizard by pouring points into Knowledges (along with the Beguiler) to make sure everyone gets informed decisions about enemies.

3) He can burst heal to help the Crusader's rather lackluster healing if it's really needed, and UMD assorted wands of Restoration and such.

4) In combat he can serve the purpose of eliminating big threats (through SA shenanigans) or battlefield control with his SLAs/UMD. Get some Staffs, and when worse comes to worse he can be a better Wizard then a Wizard.

5) The rest of the time he can be the all around guy, scouting with the Beguiler (he can emulate HiPS), fighting up front with the Crusader, talking them out of trouble/ect.

[Darth Mario]

I'm going to second the recommendation of Binder. Any class that allows you to pick your abilities any given day is good in my book, and since your Arcane and Divine roles are covered...

[Chronos]

Now, healing, skillmonkey, and battlefield control could benefit from having someone else taking up the some of the slack,

Without Dungeonscape or core, Beguiler is already the best skillmonkey you're going to find. But Factotum certainly works, if you can get it approved. I notice that you also have Races of Destiny on the allowed list, which means that the ever-classic Factotum/Chameleon combination is a possibility.

Binder would also be a good idea, as others have mentioned, especially since you're starting at level 8, when they get two vestiges at once. Picking one vestige each day is nice, but picking a combo of two vestiges each day is a lot nicer.

[Squash Monster]

The Beguiler also gets Solid Fog already, and the Warmage has Evard's black Tentacles. The Crusader has a spiked chain. Is this party in need of more control do you think (serious question. no sarcasm here)?

You always need more control. But magical control begins its descent into suckage at level 9 when Freedom of Movement becomes available, so if your DM is likely to put Freedom of Movement on lots of things then maybe it's less of a good idea. Wu Jen gets buffs too, but it's really not a buffer class, and your options don't include any really good ones.

So, if your DM is likely to use Freedom of Movement a lot, I have to change my recommendation to a martial controller. There's two kinds of those: lockdown and bullrush. Your Crusader is probably going for a a trip-based lockdown fighter, so go for bullrush.

That'd be Fighter with Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper, and the Dungeon Crasher sub levels (still need to get Dungeonscape). Improved Trip is also nice if you can get it, as it makes Domino Rush (part of Shock Trooper) pretty awesome. If you really want to have crunchy fun with it then play a Raptoran (bullrush into ground) or a Goliath (get Knockback and then get into Bloodstorm Blade so you can apply that to thrown weapons)

[Ascension]

I might suggest Scout, since you can be "the wilderness guy" without being a ranger or druid. The problem is the best Scout builds involve rogue or ranger (for swift ambusher or swift hunter, the former for sheer damage output, the latter for dealing precision damage to things normally immune), both core.

Scout 20's not bad, persay, but you won't look so good against that party unless you're fairly optimized. And Favored Souls can't turn undead (IIRC), so you can't use a Favored Soul/Scout build to get travel devotion for that particular brand of scout optimization... Maybe a Dread Necromancer/Scout who worships Fla-Flh-Flahonwroh... that travel guy? No, I don't have a single clue how to justify that build in-character.

Aw, heck, just go with someone else's suggestion.

[monty]

Samurai.extra characters

[Frosty]

Well the Factotum would be great because:

1) He can take a series of skill different then the Beguiler, granting them both a wider range of things to do.

2) He can serve the purpose of the usual Wizard by pouring points into Knowledges (along with the Beguiler) to make sure everyone gets informed decisions about enemies.

3) He can burst heal to help the Crusader's rather lackluster healing if it's really needed, and UMD assorted wands of Restoration and such.

4) In combat he can serve the purpose of eliminating big threats (through SA shenanigans) or battlefield control with his SLAs/UMD. Get some Staffs, and when worse comes to worse he can be a better Wizard then a Wizard.

5) The rest of the time he can be the all around guy, scouting with the Beguiler (he can emulate HiPS), fighting up front with the Crusader, talking them out of trouble/ect.

I agree with all of that, and by SA you mean Sneak Attack right? Can you spend more than one point at once to get multiple d6s of damage? I agree with the scouting except for one thing: We're starting at level 8, so the Factotum can't exactly emulate class features yet.

If I manage to get both Dungeonscape and Races of Destiny approved, should I go with straight Factotum or go Chameleon, assuming this is the route I wanna go?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I agree with all of that, and by SA you mean Sneak Attack right? Can you spend more than one point at once to get multiple d6s of damage? I agree with the scouting except for one thing: We're starting at level 8, so the Factotum can't exactly emulate class features yet.

If I manage to get both Dungeonscape and Races of Destiny approved, should I go with straight Factotum or go Chameleon, assuming this is the route I wanna go?

Either one really, but they are two different characters. One of them is an awesome spellcaster/skillmonkey, the other is a melee master/skill monkey/UMD monster.

Keep in mind that as a Chameleon you don't even need UMD for anything lower then seventh level.

Feats for Factotum: Font of Inspiration X 100 billion
Feats for Chameleon: Able Learner/Metamagic, ect.

[Ascension]

Feats for Factotum: Font of Inspiration X 100 billion

Seconded into the stratosphere if you're going with Factotum. Factotum by himself: Pretty nifty, but prone to going nova at inappropriate times if you're not careful. Factotum with maxed Font of Inspiration: Awesome at whatever he chooses to be awesome at, when he chooses to be awesome at it, often enough to make a huge contribution to the party.

The only way Factotums with max Font of Inspiration could be better is with 8+INT skill points (I was rather disappointed when I found out they're limited to 6+INT. Be a human.).

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

The only way Factotums with max Font of Inspiration could be better is with 8+INT skill points (I was rather disappointed when I found out they're limited to 6+INT. Be a human.).

Factotums are 4+int unless I miss my guess. And be a Grey Elf, you get the same skill points and +1 to every effect you use Inspiration on.

[sonofzeal]

Factotums are 4+int unless I miss my guess. And be a Grey Elf, you get the same skill points and +1 to every effect you use Inspiration on.

Nope, it's very definitelly 6+int.

[Ascension]

Factotums are 4+int unless I miss my guess. And be a Grey Elf, you get the same skill points and +1 to every effect you use Inspiration on.

No, they're 6+INT. 4+INT would be insufferably low for the ultimate skill monkey. And human nets you an extra Font of Inspiration in addition to the skill points.

[Frosty]

Either one really, but they are two different characters. One of them is an awesome spellcaster/skillmonkey, the other is a melee master/skill monkey/UMD monster.

Keep in mind that as a Chameleon you don't even need UMD for anything lower then seventh level.

Feats for Factotum: Font of Inspiration X 100 billion
Feats for Chameleon: Able Learner/Metamagic, ect.

Can a Chameleon make good use of metamagic? He only gets up to level 6 slots.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

No, they're 6+INT. 4+INT would be insufferably low for the ultimate skill monkey. And human nets you an extra Font of Inspiration in addition to the skill points.

Except that Font of Inspiration is limited based on your Int modifier, so a human has to stop taking it before a Grey Elf. Not to mention after a certain point the extra +1 on everything you do is worth more then a few more Inspiration points you'll never use except when you want to end an encounter hardcore.

My favorite:

Wand of Fireball, Standard action, Fireball, Standard action, Fireball, repeat until dead. Sometimes everyone just wants the last encounter of the day to be over, and sometimes it is.

[Ascension]

Except that Font of Inspiration is limited based on your Int modifier, so a human has to stop taking it before a Grey Elf. Not to mention after a certain point the extra +1 on everything you do is worth more then a few more Inspiration points you'll never use except when you want to end an encounter hardcore.

I concede this may be applicable at ECL 8, but at the levels I generally start at (3-5), you need the extra feat now, not three levels down the line. While human is always one of the strongest races, it's more strong the lower level you are, when each individual feat is much more valuable.

[Frosty]

People actually buy wands of Fireball? I thought those were horribly cost-inefficient?

[Ascension]

People actually buy wands of Fireball? I thought those were horribly cost-inefficient?

Sometimes you just have to burn something, cost be hanged.