Do you count as your own ally? How does IHS work?

[Frosty]

Two questions:

1. For the purposes of targeting a spell or effect? if it says "Ally" can you target yourself?

2. If I am in the area of a Grease or Entangle spell, and I use Iron Heart Surge, will the spell end, or does it mean I and only I am unaffected by the spell? Or does IHS not affect area spells like Entangle and Grease?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Two questions:

1. For the purposes of targeting a spell or effect? if it says "Ally" can you target yourself?

Yes, I think, although WotC regret this.

2. If I am in the area of a Grease or Entangle spell, and I use Iron Heart Surge, will the spell end, or does it mean I and only I am unaffected by the spell? Or does IHS not affect area spells like Entangle and Grease?

It ends the spell.

[Frosty]

Eww, so just how abusive is White Raven Tactics?

And what else does IHS "end"? I'm still confused as to what counts as an effect affecting the Warblade.

[SamTheCleric]

I asked the very same question in the RAW questions, Lord Silvanos said no, you do not count as an Ally for the purpose of maneuvers... and the Faq explicitly states that you can't use White Raven Tactics on yourself.

[streakster]

Fun things to do with IHS (ie, make your DM hate you):

"I'm falling? I activate IHS. To end gravity."
"The sun is in my eyes. I use IHS to extinguish it."
"I seem to be growing old. I use IHS to stop the aging process."
"Not having a +5 sword is affecting my performance against this demon. I use IHS to to end my not having that sword."

I know that doesn't help, though. Sorry.

[Swooper]

WRT is an exception to you counting as your own ally, I believe it's in the FAQ, so SamTheCleric is right there. I'm sure someone will come along with a link and a quote soon enough.

IHS is really poorly written. It really just needs to have some common sense applied to it, and it should be fine. I mean, being able to use it to extinguish an Antimagic Field, but NOT to end your own Stunned condition (because you can't take an action)? That's just silly.

[Frosty]

*can* you use it to end an AMF? What about Charm or Dominate?

[Illiterate Scribe]

*can* you use it to end an AMF? What about Charm or Dominate?

Yes, no, no. Surprisingly enough, you can't use it at many of the times you were intended to, because you don't have the action to initiate it.

[Frosty]

Does charm and dominate speicfically take away your actions?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Does charm and dominate speicfically take away your actions?

Dominate doesn't allow you to take the action, since your doing whatever the dominate tells you.

Charm - well, you don't think that you're in a combat situation.

[Emperor Tippy]

RAW: You are your own ally, and can use White Raven Tactics on yourself. The FAQ is not RAW.

RAI: You prolly aren't meant to be your own ally for such things, but thats DM interpretation.

[Frosty]

RAW: You are your own ally, and can use White Raven Tactics on yourself. The FAQ is not RAW.

Can you show me where in a rulebook that says You are your own Ally? I'd just like to know for future reference.

[Chronos]

Strictly speaking, you can surge away a Charm or Dominate; you just probably wouldn't. For one scenario where it might be plausible, though: The BBEG hits you with a Dominate spell in battle, and orders you to fight against your allies as effectively as possible (he might give an open-ended order like this if he doesn't know precisely what your capabilities are). The party wizard casts Slow on you, to remove the threat you pose without having to kill you. You use Iron Heart Surge to shake off the Slow (that being what you would do to fight most effectively, as per your orders), and also remove the Domination in the process.

[Starbuck_II]

Two questions:

1. For the purposes of targeting a spell or effect? if it says "Ally" can you target yourself?

2. If I am in the area of a Grease or Entangle spell, and I use Iron Heart Surge, will the spell end, or does it mean I and only I am unaffected by the spell? Or does IHS not affect area spells like Entangle and Grease?

1.
In 4th Ally does not count as self they clarified. And it probably shouldn't count as self in 3rd.

2. It will end the spell (according to RAW)

[Pirate_King]

well that's an interestingly recursive problem.

Isn't 4ed making what spells affects only allies and not you more specific? I thought I read on some thread or another...

[Darrin]

Can you show me where in a rulebook that says You are your own Ally? I'd just like to know for future reference.

Player's Handbook, p. 304. In the Glossary under "ally":

"A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" includes yourself."


WRT doesn't mention why it would be an exception to "most cases", nor does the Sage Advice. Near as we can tell, the Sage was siding on "Rules As Intended", but it's not clear if the Sage was aware of the PHB definition of allies. Last time I checked, the Sage's ruling on White Raven Tactics is *not* currently in the FAQ. There hasn't been any official errata for ToB.

[Frosty]

Thanks Darrin. Do you think there will be a ToB Errata?

[Riffington]

Player's Handbook, p. 304. In the Glossary under "ally":

"A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" includes yourself."


WRT doesn't mention why it would be an exception to "most cases", nor does the Sage Advice.

In most cases, abilities that affect allies specify "including yourself"; White Raven Tactics does not. There exist a few powers that affect allies that do not happen to specify "including yourself" but surely ought to; these powers are the ones that require the DM to be nice.

[RTGoodman]

WRT doesn't mention why it would be an exception to "most cases", nor does the Sage Advice. Near as we can tell, the Sage was siding on "Rules As Intended", but it's not clear if the Sage was aware of the PHB definition of allies. Last time I checked, the Sage's ruling on White Raven Tactics is *not* currently in the FAQ. There hasn't been any official errata for ToB.

The ruling on WRT actually is in the FAQ. Or, at least, it's in the copy I downloaded.

Can you use white raven tactics (Tome of Battle, page 94) on yourself to gain another turn right after your current initiative score?
No. White Raven Tactics doesn’t work on the initiator himself.

As you say, though, the FAQ isn't actually errata, and as of now there isn't any errata for ToB. I believe, though, that I read in some article somewhere that WotC is gonna try to finish out errata for 3.5 at some point.

[Darrin]

I believe, though, that I read in some article somewhere that WotC is gonna try to finish out errata for 3.5 at some point.

WotC did have someone working on errata, even after 4E was announced, but I don't think he's worked his way up to ToB yet.

Complete Scoundrel was the last book to get errata, on 1/7/2008. I have no idea if they're being tackled in the order they were published.

Hopefully some errata will clear up WRT and Thicket of Blades vs. Tumble.

[Frosty]

I thought that one was pretty clear. Tumble negates the normal AoO provokes that comes with normal movement. Thicket of blades is a spearate provoking condition which Tumble does not address.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yeah, IHS can be bad. I've tried to use it to end "The scary Dragon" once, when I failed the save.

Interestingly, DMs can smite even better than Paladins.

[skywalker]

If you wanna talk about RAI, I'm pretty sure you're intended to be able to end affects like fear effects, etc.

[Aquillion]

If you wanna talk about RAI, I'm pretty sure you're intended to be able to end affects like fear effects, etc.

I think what he meant was that his character,was scared by the dragon (legitimately scared of its abilities, not by a magical fear effect), and tried to use Iron Heart Surge to cause the dragon itself to cease to exist.

[Chronos]

OK, who else thinks that "the scary dragon" ought to be the name of a Tome of Battle maneuver now?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I think what he meant was that his character,was scared by the dragon (legitimately scared of its abilities, not by a magical fear effect), and tried to use Iron Heart Surge to cause the dragon itself to cease to exist.

No, I was scared by the Frightful Presence, and argued that not only should IHS end the Shaken condition, it should eliminate the entire Frightful Presence. Permanently. One of my party members came up with the idea that since all Dragons, everywhere have Frightful Presence, ending it would be impossible without ending the Dragon, too. So the DM was actually forced to say "No, you cannot erase the BBEG from existence with a third-level maneuver from a hundred feet away WITHOUT EVER ATTACKING HIM!"

[mithrandir86]

Strictly speaking, you can surge away a Charm or Dominate; you just probably wouldn't. For one scenario where it might be plausible, though: The BBEG hits you with a Dominate spell in battle, and orders you to fight against your allies as effectively as possible (he might give an open-ended order like this if he doesn't know precisely what your capabilities are). The party wizard casts Slow on you, to remove the threat you pose without having to kill you. You use Iron Heart Surge to shake off the Slow (that being what you would do to fight most effectively, as per your orders), and also remove the Domination in the process.

Iron Heart Surge is a standard action that works to dispel one (1) negative effect the character is experiencing. So you would Iron Heart Surge to remove the Slow effect, not to remove the Dominate effect. Iron Heart Surge, as it is intended, does not affect game balance in any significant way. If your game allows to end antimagic fields, forbiddence, hallow/unhallow, grappling (since grappled is a status), then it becomes abusive.

As for White Raven Tactics, most DMs will rule on the spot that the maneuver can't be used on yourself. CustServ has ruled in that way. By RAW you can, however.

[Chronos]

Iron Heart Surge is a standard action that works to dispel one (1) negative effect the character is experiencing.

Ah, my mistake, I thought it threw off all negative effects. It could still be used to throw off Dominate, if it's somehow consistent with the orders given, though. A very foolish wizard might, for instance, order the subject to "use the most powerful martial maneuver you have available", for instance, and if that maneuver happens to be Iron Heart Surge, the warblade could use it.