Vow of Poverty on a swordsage?

[Talya]

I mentioned this in another thread...and the more i look at it, the more I think it works.

Unarmed Swordsage variant, perhaps going into Shadow Sun Ninja. (possibly a monk level or two). Vow of Poverty looks really sweet...maneuvers/stances can do most of the neat stuff you might need equipment for, and you get far higher combat bonuses than are otherwise possible with equipment. If you're really hung up on flight, raptorans have no level adjustment. You get a whole lot of goodies, bonuses and special abilities that I don't think you could ever match with wealth by level, including just about every "must have" ability people think should be staples of melee characters.

Thoughts?

[SamTheCleric]

IIRC, the Swordsage Wisdom to AC only works in Light Armor... which doesn't include being unarmored.

As long as you can get around that... sounds like a good idea to me.

[Talya]

IIRC, the Swordsage Wisdom to AC only works in Light Armor... which doesn't include being unarmored.

As long as you can get around that... sounds like a good idea to me.

Yeah, but of course, the unarmed adaptation of the swordsage gets no armor proficiency. I'd call that an error in proofreading rather than what was intended. Regardless, SSN gets the monk bonus to armor as opposed to swordsage's.

[SamTheCleric]

Oh, didn't know that about SSN.

Yeah, that looks very solid... maneuvers to make up for your lack of "Phat Lewtz"...

Hmm. I'm tempted to make one now.

[Talya]

Oh, didn't know that about SSN.

Yeah, that looks very solid... maneuvers to make up for your lack of "Phat Lewtz"...

Hmm. I'm tempted to make one now.

I started to, then got frustrated when I ran out of room for feats and abilities on Tangledweb's character profiler site. (VoP is brutal that way.)

[DownwardSpiral]

Unless you pick up balance on the sky stance in shadow hand you'll still be missing out on a way to fly. If you can get past that you should be fine.

[Talya]

Unless you pick up balance on the sky stance in shadow hand you'll still be missing out on a way to fly. If you can get past that you should be fine.

ummmmm....

If you're really hung up on flight, raptorans have no level adjustment.

Furthermore, the monk speed bonus (which SSN gives you) applies to all modes of natural movement that you have. For a raptoran, their 30'/average flight can easily become 70'/average with this build.

[SamTheCleric]

And you can improve the Average with a feat (out of Races of the Wild... the name escapes me)

[Duke of URL]

And you can improve the Average with a feat (out of Races of the Wild... the name escapes me)

Improved Flight, if I'm not mistaken.

[Eldariel]

Also, you can pick up Wingover and such to pretend to be of better manoeuvrability. Also, the feat is Improved Flight. Two times it and you have Perfect Flight at a nice speed.

And yea, I like the idea of VoP ToB character; I never much liked items anyways so having a bunch of inherent abilities is cool. [aside]I really hope 4E will be less of an itemfest...[/aside]

[Douglas]

You get a whole lot of goodies, bonuses and special abilities that I don't think you could ever match with wealth by level, including just about every "must have" ability people think should be staples of melee characters.

The math has been done many times. Wealth By Level easily duplicates virtually everything Vow of Poverty has to offer with money to spare. The only exceptions are the bonus exalted feats, which are generally not very powerful, and continuous True Seeing, which you don't get until very high level, well past the point where other party members should be able to cast it for you without a second thought when it's needed.

[Person_Man]

RE: Variant Swordsage: Non-proficiency isn't an issue if the armor has no armor check penalty.

"Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shields."

Wear a mithral chain shirt. My casters usually wear mithral light shields as well.

RE: VoP

Following standard wealth by level guidelines, a 20th level character should have 760,000 gp worth of equipment. That's a TON of gold. If spent judiciously, you could easily top the bonuses provided by VoP.

Furthermore, equipment allows you to min/max. You only need to buy things that are useful for your PC. Many VoP abilities and feats are a waste, and they tend to scale poorly. For example, at 20th level, you only get a +5 to hit and damage. By 20th level, any self respecting melee build will have at least one effectively +10ish weapon.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

If you want to make the number crunchers can it, be a Mystic Swordsage with the VoP. Take Adaptive Style at level 1, and you win DnD without ever having to multiclass, use equipment, or deal with RAW vs RAI.

[Ponce]

I wouldn't multiclass to monk, you get very little from it. You would need a substantial number of levels for the speed bonus to be of any use, in which case your IL will drop substantially. Fist of the Forest is a PrC for this. Boost to unarmed strike, fast movement speed, useful extra abilities, full bab, two good saves, all over 3 levels. Complete Champion. Oh, and Con to AC.

That being said, I've seen VoP swordsage being done. It works.

[DownwardSpiral]

If you're really hung up on flight, raptorans have no level adjustment.

I have no idea how I missed that.....Nevermind.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Double post. Poop.

[Reel On, Love]

You get a whole lot of goodies, bonuses and special abilities that I don't think you could ever match with wealth by level

Yeah, no.
And with the MIC out there, with a ton of useful and cheap items, double no.
Raptoran's almost a must, for flight. I suppose you could go for a flyby-attacking Raptoran. I don't think VoP's bonuses are that impressive, though.

[monty]

Vow of Poverty does have other benefits, though. For example, if you're going up against high-level casters, it protects you from being Disjunction-ed. Personally, though, I just like roleplaying exalted characters.

[The Rose Dragon]

Furthermore, the monk speed bonus (which SSN gives you) applies to all modes of natural movement that you have. For a raptoran, their 30'/average flight can easily become 70'/average with this build.

According to Stormwrack, no, it doesn't (basically, it has a variant that allows you to add your monk speed bonus to your natural swim speed rather than land speed).

[monty]

At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.

Not "land speed," just speed. Therefore, it applies to all speeds. Might be an oversight, since the core races don't have natural flight, but it's RAW.

[Reel On, Love]

According to Stormwrack, no, it doesn't (basically, it has a variant that allows you to add your monk speed bonus to your natural swim speed rather than land speed).

The Stormwrack variant is useless, then. Stuff that only increases land speed specifically says so.

[Starbuck_II]

According to Stormwrack, no, it doesn't (basically, it has a variant that allows you to add your monk speed bonus to your natural swim speed rather than land speed).

Than "It's Wet Outside" is wrong. By Core RAW monk adds to any speed. Not just land speed.

[Talya]

I wouldn't multiclass to monk, you get very little from it. You would need a substantial number of levels for the speed bonus to be of any use, in which case your IL will drop substantially. Fist of the Forest is a PrC for this. Boost to unarmed strike, fast movement speed, useful extra abilities, full bab, two good saves, all over 3 levels. Complete Champion. Oh, and Con to AC.

That being said, I've seen VoP swordsage being done. It works.

2 levels of monk costs you only 1 initiator level. For that you get two bonus feats (one of which is boosted a lot by SSN - stunning fist), an extra attack on a full attack action (as SSN gives flurry progression, but it's level 11 for the last boost to flurry), an extra point of armor, +10 more speed, etc.


As for VoP vs. WBL:
VOP wealth equivalent:
+8 to one ability = 640,000 gp
+6 to one ability = 36,000 gp
+4 to one ability = 16,000 gp
+2 to one ability = 8,000 gp
+10 bracers of armor = 100,000 gp
Ring of Protection +3 = 32,000 gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 = 8,000 gp
Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 = 150,000 gp
Ring of Freedom of Movement = 40,000 gp
Ring of Mind Shielding = 8,000 gp
Ring of Regeneration = 90,000 gp
Ring of Sustenance = 2,500 gp
Gem of Seeing (very, very poor substitute, you'd need to turn them into goggles and have 48 of them to really duplicate it) = 75,000 gp
Boots of the Winterlands (poor substitute) = 2,500 gp
5 rings of major energy resistance = 140,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +4 = 25,000 gp (+3 direct, + 1 from nymph's kiss - exalted feat)
Item of +20 to a skill (Because if you don't take Nymph's Kiss as your level 1 exalted feat, you're dumb. And even then it should be +23) = 40,000 gp
Permanent item of Stoneskin (Closest approximation to DR 10/evil using custom item guidelines) = 16,000 gp

Not to mention...you've got to be able to wear all of the above at the same time. Furthermore, that doesn't count all the feats and abilities which cannot be duplicated by items.

[Reel On, Love]

2 levels of monk costs you only 1 initiator level. For that you get two bonus feats (one of which is boosted a lot by SSN - stunning fist), an extra attack on a full attack action (as SSN gives flurry progression, but it's level 11 for the last boost to flurry), an extra point of armor, +10 more speed, etc.


As for VoP vs. WBL:
VOP wealth equivalent:
+8 to one ability = 640,000 gp

Sure, except it's not really worth that much. Would you rather have a +8 stat booster than even 100,000 gp of gear?

+10 bracers of armor = 100,000 gp
Ring of Protection +3 = 32,000 gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 = 8,000 gp

Except a normal swordsage can wear armor, getting +9 out of a +5 chain shirt.
Or better yet, a Pearl of Power III for Magic Vestment (or just get the cleric to cast it normally) and a +1 Heavy Fotification chain shirt for crit immunity.
Or better yet, the awesometastic Celestial Armor, which when enhanced to +5 (or magic viestmented, or etc) gives +10 AC.
And he can afford a Ring of Protection +5 and add Natural Armor +5 to an item as per the MIC, which comes out to *more* AC than VoP even with the chain shirt.

Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 = 150,000 gp

That's nice, except the item is obviously overpriced, and there are much better and cheaper options (including Pearls of Power III for the wizard's GMWs, bumming one off the cleric, wearing magic gauntlets, wielding weapons...
...and the weapons and gauntlets can have cool, useful non-+X properties.

Ring of Freedom of Movement = 40,000 gp
Ring of Mind Shielding = 8,000 gp
Ring of Regeneration = 90,000 gp
Ring of Sustenance = 2,500 gp

FoM, sure. Mind Shielding? Who wants that? That GP is better spent. Regeneration? Wands of Cure Light/lesser vigor, much cheaper. Ring of Sustenance? Meh, okay.

Gem of Seeing (very, very poor substitute, you'd need to turn them into goggles and have 48 of them to really duplicate it) = 75,000 gp
Boots of the Winterlands (poor substitute) = 2,500 gp

The Gem of Seeing does just fine. Hell, so does having a couple of Scout's Headbands. You don't need True Seeing all the time--you can usually know when you see it. Sure, it's a handy ability (no more illusions, etc), but it's not that big a deal (and with VoP you're missing out on a whole ton of handy items).

5 rings of major energy resistance = 140,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +4 = 25,000 gp (+3 direct, + 1 from nymph's kiss - exalted feat)
Item of +20 to a skill (Because if you don't take Nymph's Kiss as your level 1 exalted feat, you're dumb) = 40,000 gp
Permanent item of Stoneskin (Closest approximation to DR 10/evil using custom item guidelines) = 16,000 gp

Better energy resistances, sure, but who buys Rings of Energy Resistance? A Mass Resist X spell when you suspect you need it ("red dragon!") works for the most part.
Not everyone takes Nymph's Kiss, because not everyone can manage a relationship with a fey in-game.
That resistance is also 1 less whan a Cloak of Resistance +5.

DR 10/evil can be pretty useful, I'll admit. Unless you're fighting demons/devils. How standard those are as high-level enemies varies wildly.

Not to mention...you've got to be able to wear all of the above at the same time. Furthermore, that doesn't count all the feats and abilities which cannot be duplicated by items.

That's at level 20. There's some really strong, really handy stuff you're missing, and a level 20 character can have all of it.
With the MIC, body slots are much less of an issue.

[Talya]

DR 10/evil can be pretty useful, I'll admit. Unless you're fighting demons/devils.

I noticed a while ago that a level 20 VOP monk has DR 10/evil and DR 10/magic. Which actually rules out most demons/devils bypassing it.

The major downside of that is you have 20 levels of monk. Which is awful.

[Reel On, Love]

I noticed a while ago that a level 20 VOP monk has DR 10/evil and DR 10/magic. Which actually rules out most demons/devils bypassing it.

The major downside of that is you have 20 levels of monk. Which is awful.

Yeah, it just means you won't bleed as much when they violate you.

Wait a minute. Demons/devils can't beat DR/magic? SRSLY? Wow.

[Cuddly]

When you can make up for some of the holes in VoP through abilities, it's not so bad. It's just that magic items are so much better when you can min-max it. That +8 to a stat is nice if you're a caster, but not really necessary if you do melee. Personally, I'd rather spend that cash on pearls of power & really cool items from MiC (like weapon crystals, since I like meleers that do precision damage).

And even as a caster, most benefit enormously from wands, scrolls, and staves.

[Hunter Noventa]

Wait a minute. Demons/devils can't beat DR/magic? SRSLY? Wow.

For example, a Balor has DR 15/Cold Iron and Good. In theory that means it's natural attacks bypass the same type of DR, neither of which the monk has. And, oddly enough, it's attacks don't count as Evil. They just can overcome it's own DR.

At least I think that's how that works.

[Reel On, Love]

When you can make up for some of the holes in VoP through abilities, it's not so bad. It's just that magic items are so much better when you can min-max it. That +8 to a stat is nice if you're a caster, but not really necessary if you do melee.

And for a caster, it's not nearly as nice as +6 to a stat, the Vest of Lolhax from the MIC, and a Runestaff of Transmutation.

[Talya]

Yeah, it just means you won't bleed as much when they violate you.

Wait a minute. Demons/devils can't beat DR/magic? SRSLY? Wow.

Sorta. Their natural weapons generally don't beat DR/magic. Assuming they are just summoned or not targeting you specifically, that's a huge advantage. If they have time to plan though, they certainly have the resources to go get a magic weapon or cast "greater magic fang" on themselves.

Oh, more on VOP:
The lack of dependance on items that can be taken from you, in addition to the uselessness of Dysjunction on you, is actually a fairly big plus in itself.

Furthermore, exalted feats aren't useless. You're looking at +1 - +2d6 holy damage per hit in most cases, and every time you hit your opponent they've got to roll a fort save. If they roll a 1 (or otherwise roll lower than 13 if their fort save sucks), they take 1d6-3d6 dex damage. If you crit them, they can take strength damage. You boost your stunning fist DCs. You gain wisdom to hit (as a monk or swordsage or SSN, that feat is gold). You gain big bonuses to saves, skills, etc, healing ability, abilty to repel/weaken the undead, etc.