ToB Cohort? Also, sub-question.

[Deth Muncher]

So I just bought the ToB, despite I'm a caster-centric person, due to the fact I've heard of the epic cheese contained therein and 3.5 being on the way out. Now, I haven't had a good deal of time to peruse the book, but I HAVE decided that I think trying to get a cohort for my Lv.9 Sorceror would be insanely cool. And, actually, I'd have to wait until Lv. 10, so I can take a feat/ flaw to get a feat to get Leadership. In any event, which of the three ToB classes would be good for being my bodyguard? I'm currently a Lv.9 Sorceror with a Fire-Magic Shtick. (i.e. "Hm, a locked door...perhaps if I fireball...)

The sub-question: I, being the GREAT player I am, just found out Sorcerors can switch spells at even levels. [ Epic fail. =( ] Since I just found out, and also taking into account my DM has let people fix stupid mistakes on their guys, do you think when I hit level 10 I can fix...lets see...what's that...4 spells of 3rd or lower? Is that a fair request?

[MeklorIlavator]

A)ToB isn't that cheesy. It allows melee to approach the level of casters, but even then they're pretty far behind.

B)If you want a gaurd, I would suggest a crusader with a reach weapon and the thickets of blade stance. Use his healing maneuvers to heal, and his white raven maneuvers to help the party.

[Azerian Kelimon]

However, if what you want is more of an assasin or a classical fightery meatshield, I'd recommend Swordsage and Warblade respectively.

And if you use the variant that treats 1's as -10's and 20's as 30's, DEFINETELY take a Swordsage.

As for the spell changes...spell list, please.

[Deth Muncher]

As for the spell changes...spell list, please.

That I'll have to get back to you on. I left my sheet at the store that I play at. But just assume it's bad.


Edit: Actually, I know a few off the top of my head. In no particular order:
-Charm Person, True Strike, Fly, Fireball, Burst(?) of Flame (the cone version of fireball, it's a 4th level spell), Read/Detect Magic, Identify, Magic Missile, Incendiary Slime, Pro-Arrows, either Summon III or IV, the Acid cantrip (Splash?). That's all I've got just from memory.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Like, Blaster-bad?

Well, the answer's simple. Pick Battlefield control and debuff spells, that usually works.

For example, excellent spells at low levels are Grease, which helps the rogue, Color spray, which equals losing if you fail the save, and Sleep, which you then switch out later.

Level 2 spells could be, for example, Web. Or invisibility.

Level three spells have ONE must have, which should be swapped in pronto: Slow. It's an excellent save or suck.

But the big cheese comes once you get level four spells. There, you find the big cheese, spells which will be useful throughout your career. Specifically, Enervation, Black tentacles, and the wuvable solid fog.

For more, I'd PM a poster named Solo. He has his special sorcerer guide, which is very good.

Edit: Wow, it's not as bad as I thought.

Priority one: Get rid of any damage spells. They suck. If you want damage, get disintegrate and orbs.

Priority two: Wraithstrike is an excellent spell. Get it, it makes sure you hit.

Priority three: Get Shivering touch. It does 3d6 Dex damage, which more or less destroys anything that's not a roguelike.

[Deth Muncher]

Like, Blaster-bad?

Well, the answer's simple. Pick Battlefield control and debuff spells, that usually works.

For example, excellent spells at low levels are Grease, which helps the rogue, Color spray, which equals losing if you fail the save, and Sleep, which you then switch out later.

Level 2 spells could be, for example, Web. Or invisibility.

Level three spells have ONE must have, which should be swapped in pronto: Slow. It's an excellent save or suck.

But the big cheese comes once you get level four spells. There, you find the big cheese, spells which will be useful throughout your career. Specifically, Enervation, Black tentacles, and the wuvable solid fog.

For more, I'd PM a poster named Solo. He has his special sorcerer guide, which is very good.

Edit: Wow, it's not as bad as I thought.

Priority one: Get rid of any damage spells. They suck. If you want damage, get disintegrate and orbs.

Priority two: Wraithstrike is an excellent spell. Get it, it makes sure you hit.

Priority three: Get Shivering touch. It does 3d6 Dex damage, which more or less destroys anything that's not a roguelike.

Heh, way to call it...I'm definately a blaster-caster. Although, that's a wee bit of roleplay as opposed to rollplay: My character happens to be a Pyromaniac (Best. Flaw. Ever) with Fiendish Heritage feats. Hence, "Oh, hm, fire just feels natural to me."

Also, Incendiary Slime, IMHO, is > than Grease, because it is, in fact, Grease, but flamable. Also, as of yet, I can't swap out my 4th level spells, few though they be, although be assured, when I get more spells, I'll be picking those up. I don't, however, get the importance of Wraithstrike and Solid Fog.

Oh, and Solo's Supertacular Splendiferous Sorceror Sguide thing. I believe I've looked at that, although not enough to get the alliteration down pat.

[Chronos]

A)ToB isn't that cheesy. It allows melee to approach the level of casters, but even then they're pretty far behind.

Eh, the Tome of Battle classes are casters. They're just casters who happen to hold swords while they cast their spells.

[mithrandir86]

So I just bought the ToB, despite I'm a caster-centric person, due to the fact I've heard of the epic cheese contained therein and 3.5 being on the way out. Now, I haven't had a good deal of time to peruse the book, but I HAVE decided that I think trying to get a cohort for my Lv.9 Sorceror would be insanely cool. And, actually, I'd have to wait until Lv. 10, so I can take a feat/ flaw to get a feat to get Leadership. In any event, which of the three ToB classes would be good for being my bodyguard? I'm currently a Lv.9 Sorceror with a Fire-Magic Shtick. (i.e. "Hm, a locked door...perhaps if I fireball...)

The sub-question: I, being the GREAT player I am, just found out Sorcerors can switch spells at even levels. [ Epic fail. =( ] Since I just found out, and also taking into account my DM has let people fix stupid mistakes on their guys, do you think when I hit level 10 I can fix...lets see...what's that...4 spells of 3rd or lower? Is that a fair request?

The amount of cheese contained within ToB does not even come close to the cheesy things you can do with a Wizard. ToB makes the melee classes worthwhile at higher levels, because otherwise they're completely overshadowed in every encounter.

You really can't go wrong with a Warblade bodyguard. The options avalible to you are really quite interesting. And Warblades are fun to play and hard to screw up in their build. Sure, you can optimize the manuever choices, but even an unoptimized Warblade is awesome.

As for optimization of the companion, if you want a character that will not anyone hit you, I would suggest the following:

Human Warblade 6/Crusader 2. Str>Con>Dex>Int>Wis>Cha

Two feat routes, one with Combat Expertise (and thus Int 13) and one without.

1st: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Ironheart Aura (B), Stormguard Warrior. (Armed with a Guisarme)

2nd: Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Power Attack, Ironheart Aura (B), Stormguard Warrior. (Armed with a Glaive)

Key Warblade Manuevers/Stances: Emerald Razor, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wall of Blades, Disarming Strike. Punishing Stance.

Key Crusader Manuevers/Stances: Foehammer, Battle Leader's Charge, Mountain Hammer, Crusader's Strike. Stances: Either Iron Guard's Glare or Martial Spirit, doesn't matter. ***THICKET OF BLADES STANCE****.

The real key is the synergy between Stormguard Warrior and Thicket of Blades stance. Stormguard Warrior is a tactical feat that, among its options, allows you to trade AoOs for +4 hit/damage per AoO given up on your attacks against that creature. Thicket of Blades generates AoOs very reliably.

In the event where you want him to block someone coming to get you, you can have him either use Stand Still or Improved Trip. Improved Trip is great because it allows him to do damage when he succeeds in the attempt, as well as the opportunity to do more damage when the guy gets up (either through an attack or through Stormguard Warrior). Stand Still is great because it works against things that are immune to trip.

As far as progression, I would suggest he takes another level of Crusader for the fantastic White Raven Tactics maneuver, then takes the Extra Granted Maneuver feat. Congratulations. You now get 2 rounds worth of actions every 3 rounds, provided you remain adjacent to him.

I would then advance him as a Warblade throughout, taking Robilar's Gambit at level 12, Defensive Sweep at 15. Bonus feat for Adaptive Style somewhere there.
*************


As for spells, I would suggest taking Haste (which works great with your cohort's Stormguard Warrior feat), Ray of Dizziness (SC) limit your enemies to either a move action or a standard action. Bonus: No save!), Halt (PHB2. Use an immediate action to make your foe make a Will Save or be unable to move during his turn.), and I guess you could leave the uninteresting yet visceral Fireball.

[Swooper]

And if you use the variant that treats 1's as -10's and 20's as 30's, DEFINETELY take a Swordsage.

Ok, you got me. I'm curious. How is this variant better for a Swordsage than most people?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Personally, your list is plenty fine. The few changes I'd do would be this:

Everything fire but the slime and fireball go out. Replace with orbs.

Fly goes out. Wait 'till Overland Flight, or replace when you have it.

Identify goes out. Get Wind Wall, if it was level one, otherwise get something with more practical utility.

Similarly, arrow prot goes out. Wind Wall is it's better version.

The monster summons go out. Instead, I'd get a save or suck or battlefield control.

With that and taking debuffs and battlefield control, you'll be okay.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Ok, you got me. I'm curious. How is this variant better for a Swordsage than most people?

Baffling Defense. Up your Sense motive and now, they can't even hit on a twenty. Then, if anything makes it to the future rounds, use Setting Sun and Diamond Mind counters to throw attacks right back at 'em.

A Swordsage's defensive bane is the 5% autohit. With that removed, a properly built Swordsage is a better tank than a crusader.

[Deth Muncher]

Personally, your list is plenty fine. The few changes I'd do would be this:

Everything fire but the slime and fireball go out. Replace with orbs.

Fly goes out. Wait 'till Overland Flight, or replace when you have it.

Identify goes out. Get Wind Wall, if it was level one, otherwise get something with more practical utility.

Similarly, arrow prot goes out. Wind Wall is it's better version.

The monster summons go out. Instead, I'd get a save or suck or battlefield control.

With that and taking debuffs and battlefield control, you'll be okay.

As I recall, Orbs are...what, 4th level? So I can't swap quite yet. And yeah, I'll swap Fly for OLF as soon as it becomes available. I think I'll definately drop Identify, since I've learned the glory that is 15 ranks in Spellcraft. And yeah, I can deal with losing the Summon, assuming it's 3rd, not 4th.

Oh! I remember I have Control Undead as well. Major reason: High probability of undead in current area of campaign.

Also. Should I pick up Dispel Magic?

[RTGoodman]

Ok, you got me. I'm curious. How is this variant better for a Swordsage than most people?

I'd like to know that, also. Ninja-answered.



Anyway, as far as the ToB Cohort, there really are three ways to go, as others have said. If you're looking for a meathshield to make sure no one whacks you with a hunk of metal, Warblade is probably best.

If you want someone to boost your allies, block a little, do some damage, and heal a little, Crusader's for you (and I personally think it's the best route to go). Focus on White Raven and Devoted Spirit and you can get healing and battlefield coordination, and pick up the Stone Dragon stuff for various other damage and status effects when necessary. (Stone Dragon is the one that gets Bonecrusher and the Con damage strikes, right?)

If you want something that fits with your theme, you definitely need a Swordsage - they have access to a whole school of maneuvers that's based around fire (Desert Wind), and they have all sorts of other neat stuff they can do. Really, they're closer to Casters than Fighters. The only problem is that they're not really "bodyguard" material as far as I can tell.

[Swooper]

Baffling Defense. Up your Sense motive and now, they can't even hit on a twenty. Then, if anything makes it to the future rounds, use Setting Sun and Diamond Mind counters to throw attacks right back at 'em.

A Swordsage's defensive bane is the 5% autohit. With that removed, a properly built Swordsage is a better tank than a crusader.

Ah, right. Thanks. I haven't studied the Swordsage-specific disciplines all that much.

[MeklorIlavator]

Lesser orbs are 1st level, orbs are 4th, but if your close, jsut wait for the regular orbs.

And definitely take dispel magic. There are other casters out there, and dispel magic lets you take their buffs out. If you must do damage, check out reaving dispel.

And Chronos, I was talking about power-wise, not mechanics-wise.

[Azerian Kelimon]

As I recall, Orbs are...what, 4th level? So I can't swap quite yet. And yeah, I'll swap Fly for OLF as soon as it becomes available. I think I'll definately drop Identify, since I've learned the glory that is 15 ranks in Spellcraft. And yeah, I can deal with losing the Summon, assuming it's 3rd, not 4th.

Oh! I remember I have Control Undead as well. Major reason: High probability of undead in current area of campaign.

Also. Should I pick up Dispel Magic?

There are lesser orbs, too.

Also, drop BOTH summons. You have a personal meatshield. You don't NEED a summon. If you REALLY want one, pick the planar ally line and use it for those specific times you need extra punch.

Control undead is okay. But Hide from Undead is much better and the Cleric's business. If your party rogue took Penetrating Strike, it simply beats anything else.

As for dispel magic, it depends. Does your divine caster have the chance of taking it? If so, let him or her do it. Divine CL boosts are far easier to find.

[Deth Muncher]

There are lesser orbs, too.

Also, drop BOTH summons. You have a personal meatshield. You don't NEED a summon. If you REALLY want one, pick the planar ally line and use it for those specific times you need extra punch.

Control undead is okay. But Hide from Undead is much better and the Cleric's business. If your party rogue took Penetrating Strike, it simply beats anything else.

As for dispel magic, it depends. Does your divine caster have the chance of taking it? If so, let him or her do it. Divine CL boosts are far easier to find.

Oh, sorry, I believe I sowed some confusion there. I've only got one Summon, I just can't remember if it's III or IV. (Well, that's not counting the Summon V granted from one of the Fiend Heritage Feats I have, but that's devil-specific and doesn't count anyway.) As to the party rogue...I don't think he took Penetrating Strike. And as to Clerics getting it...Hm. I don't know if either of the party's clerics has access to Dispel Magic.

[mithrandir86]

Baffling Defense. Up your Sense motive and now, they can't even hit on a twenty. Then, if anything makes it to the future rounds, use Setting Sun and Diamond Mind counters to throw attacks right back at 'em.

A Swordsage's defensive bane is the 5% autohit. With that removed, a properly built Swordsage is a better tank than a crusader.

Er, Baffling Defense only works on 1 attack, and to regain the maneuver it requires a full round action. Even with Adaptive Style and Moment of Alarcrity, that's only 1 attack every other round, and no boosts in the mean time (since you can't use an immediate action in the same round as a swift action).

Given this, you're still vulnerable for most attacks. Most creatures would just full attack and hit you on their iterative attacks. So no, a Crusader is still a better tank.

If you want a mean combo, a 15th level Crusader takes White Raven Hammer and Shield Counter, while an ally casts Ray of Dizziness. Congratulations, your BBEG with super-high saves is reduced a single move or standard action every 3 rounds. For one round, he is stunned. For another, he is hit with a shield counter and his single attack is ruined. A Crusader with Extra Granted Maneuver refreshes every 3 rounds.

[The_Snark]

Also, Incendiary Slime, IMHO, is > than Grease, because it is, in fact, Grease, but flamable. Also, as of yet, I can't swap out my 4th level spells, few though they be, although be assured, when I get more spells, I'll be picking those up. I don't, however, get the importance of Wraithstrike and Solid Fog.

I'm not sure why AZ reccomended Wraithstrike, actually; it's a spectacular spell for gishes, but unless you plan on doing a lot of melee attacks (with weapons, not spells) it's not doing you any good. Solid Fog, however, is an excellent spell—people within it can't move more than 5 feet per round. They also can't fire ranged weapons, or even see out of it. Essentially, they're limited to lobbing area spells out of the area and hoping they hit for several rounds, while they slowly move out o the area. Of course, you're limited to the same thing, but firstly, you always have area spells (Fireball, Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, whatever), whereas many enemies don't have any. And secondly, they haven't got a clue where you are, whereas you know they're within a 20-foot radius, which is coincidentally the same radius as many of the aforesaid area spells.

You can use it to take some enemies out of a fight (targeting groups of archers, for example) while you kill the rest, or to pin down one large enemy and hit it with area spells until it dies. Solid Fog is a very good spell; I'd say to take it before Enervate, which can wait until you're a little higher-level and can afford to use metamagic on it. Its older brothers, Acid Fog (same, plus damage every round) and Freezing Fog (Spell Compendium; a little damage every round, plus a Grease-like effect that makes moving through it even more difficult) are also good.

And I find that Dispel Magic is generally worth it, although if you're running short on spells known you can leave it to the divine caster for a while. Your party will like you if you take Haste, too.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Er, Baffling Defense only works on 1 attack, and to regain the maneuver it requires a full round action. Even with Adaptive Style and Moment of Alarcrity, that's only 1 attack every other round, and no boosts in the mean time (since you can't use an immediate action in the same round as a swift action).

Given this, you're still vulnerable for most attacks. Most creatures would just full attack and hit you on their iterative attacks. So no, a Crusader is still a better tank.

If you want a mean combo, a 15th level Crusader takes White Raven Hammer and Shield Counter, while an ally casts Ray of Dizziness. Congratulations, your BBEG with super-high saves is reduced a single move or standard action every 3 rounds. For one round, he is stunned. For another, he is hit with a shield counter and his single attack is ruined. A Crusader with Extra Granted Maneuver refreshes every 3 rounds.

Baffling defense is there to make you stay moving. Just move out of range and repeat. Essentially, you're unhittable.

And if the enemy can pounce, that's what fool's strike and it's ilk is for.

Snark: Because I'm thinking of the cohort. With it, use Reach spell cheese and the cohort is dishing touch attack hurt.

[Deth Muncher]

Snark: Because I'm thinking of the cohort. With it, use Reach spell cheese and the cohort is dishing touch attack hurt.

Oh. Oh god. OW. That makes sense. And actually, I've got Rapid Metamagic as of now, so if I can get Reach Spell (which I'd forgotten about), I deal all kinds of hurt. Or, well, in this case, cool effects. (Side note, Maximized Reach Shocking Grasp = Emperor Palpetine = UNLIMITED POWAH!) Of course, this will mean I need to get 2 feats (Reach Spell and Leadership), which isn't undoable with the aid of FLAWS!: Everybody's favorite mechanic.

[mithrandir86]

Baffling defense is there to make you stay moving. Just move out of range and repeat. Essentially, you're unhittable.

And if the enemy can pounce, that's what fool's strike and it's ilk is for.

Snark: Because I'm thinking of the cohort. With it, use Reach spell cheese and the cohort is dishing touch attack hurt.

Yeah, great. Without breaking your assumption, this character will most likely get completely ignored. Whereas a Crusader has real instruments at his disposal that make sure that people view him as a threat, and punishments if they don't target him. You move away on the second round - your enemy just shrugs and piles it on your Wizard.

But this assumption is misleading, and there are many variables that break it. Adding another creature would be the most basic. And a pounce - well, one immediate/swift action per round means that at best one attack will be countered. And then you run out of manuevers and have to refresh.

Whereas a Crusader has far more effective HP, Thicket of Blades, Defensive Rebuke, Diehard, Mettle.

Pumping your AC to very high levels doesn't make you a tank. For one, AC complements HP, it doesn't make it irrelevant - something is always going to hit you - whether its a boulder, a Polar Ray, etc. For another, unless you make yourself to be a threat, monsters will just walk past you and attack the actual threat.

Swordsage defensive maneuvers aren't to be laughed at, but they're not tanks, not by any stretch of the imagination and certainly not with a piddly houserule.

[The_Snark]

Snark: Because I'm thinking of the cohort. With it, use Reach spell cheese and the cohort is dishing touch attack hurt.

That would make sense, except Wraithstrike has a range of personal. Reach Spell specifies touch-range spells. Unless your cohort is also your familiar or your special mount or something, how are you getting around that?

[mithrandir86]

That would make sense, except Wraithstrike has a range of personal. Reach Spell specifies touch-range spells. Unless your cohort is also your familiar or your special mount or something, how are you getting around that?

You need an Eternal Wand of Wraithstrike, an Artificer (with persistent spell) and a couple characters with Use Magic Device. That's how you get the smelly cheese.

[FinalJustice]

If you happen to have an artificer and want smelly cheese, have him make a permanent Wraithstrike item.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah, great. Without breaking your assumption, this character will most likely get completely ignored. Whereas a Crusader has real instruments at his disposal that make sure that people view him as a threat, and punishments if they don't target him. You move away on the second round - your enemy just shrugs and piles it on your Wizard.

But this assumption is misleading, and there are many variables that break it. Adding another creature would be the most basic. And a pounce - well, one immediate/swift action per round means that at best one attack will be countered. And then you run out of manuevers and have to refresh.

Whereas a Crusader has far more effective HP, Thicket of Blades, Defensive Rebuke, Diehard, Mettle.

Pumping your AC to very high levels doesn't make you a tank. For one, AC complements HP, it doesn't make it irrelevant - something is always going to hit you - whether its a boulder, a Polar Ray, etc. For another, unless you make yourself to be a threat, monsters will just walk past you and attack the actual threat.

Swordsage defensive maneuvers aren't to be laughed at, but they're not tanks, not by any stretch of the imagination and certainly not with a piddly houserule.

You missed the point where I said "If you're using the variant that treats 1's as -10's and 20's as 30's...."

With that, AC is a perfect substitute of HP, except with spells and other no roll stuff. And guess what, Swordsages excel at pumping AC.

And of course, YOUR assumption ignores the whole Setting sun school. With it, I'm going to throw you, repeatedly, and wreck you up. Hell, just with Ballista throw and a move, I'm already out of reach unless you're a monster with pretty high speed. Tack on some Boots of Striding and springing, and I don't care who you are, you're not going to get close of my buds or me.

Meanwhile, the casters are filling you with Save or Dies. You lose, period.

Snark: Tippy had some kind of gimmick to make any spell reachable. Ask 'im.

[mithrandir86]

You missed the point where I said "If you're using the variant that treats 1's as -10's and 20's as 30's...."

With that, AC is a perfect substitute of HP, except with spells and other no roll stuff. And guess what, Swordsages excel at pumping AC.

And of course, YOUR assumption ignores the whole Setting sun school. With it, I'm going to throw you, repeatedly, and wreck you up. Hell, just with Ballista throw and a move, I'm already out of reach unless you're a monster with pretty high speed. Tack on some Boots of Striding and springing, and I don't care who you are, you're not going to get close of my buds or me.

Meanwhile, the casters are filling you with Save or Dies. You lose, period.

Snark: Tippy had some kind of gimmick to make any spell reachable. Ask 'im.

No, I'm not. The Setting Sun school is great, for defending the Swordsage. The trip maneuvers are OK against creatures the same size as you (or if you have Improved Trip, 1 size larger). You still have to succeed at trip attacks - which gets nearly impossible as you level up. A normal Horse has anti-trip modifier of +11. You can't trip anything bigger than 1 size larger than you - that's a lot of creatures. Anything that you're throwing at higher levels is likely to be a caster type who doesn't care about the range you're establishing.

And Swordsages can't use the same maneuvers over and over again due to their refresh mechanic. You can't use Counters and Boosts in the same round, which cuts into their damage. It is plainly impossible to use a counter, move and refresh your maneuvers in the same round.

A Swordsage can get their ACs up pretty high, but a Crusader with an Animated Heavy Shield and Heavy armor makes up any difference. And at that point, the bonus provided by even a Sense motive of +35 becomes negligible at best.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Look at my post. Did I mention trips? No. Trips suck. I mentioned throws. A swordsage is a tremendous defensive character. Whatever you do, he's going to be there, dodging your blows and throwing you many feet back. You won't be attacking, and while this defensive swordsage keeps you at bay with his half-a-dozen throws, the rest of the party will have your ass. It simply works. One Adaptive style later, you can resume throwing. WITHOUT it, you still have five or six throws.

[Renegade Paladin]

and the wuvable solid fog.

What's lovable about solid fog? I've never known a more annoying spell to get in my way in all my barbarian-playing career.

[mithrandir86]

Look at my post. Did I mention trips? No. Trips suck. I mentioned throws. A swordsage is a tremendous defensive character. Whatever you do, he's going to be there, dodging your blows and throwing you many feet back. You won't be attacking, and while this defensive swordsage keeps you at bay with his half-a-dozen throws, the rest of the party will have your ass. It simply works. One Adaptive style later, you can resume throwing. WITHOUT it, you still have five or six throws.

I suggest you open your ToB to page 73.

I'll wait.