Pun-Pun: logical flaw in use of Manipulate Form

[hamishspence]

It explicitly says: attribute adjustments are up to the maximum normal attributes of the Sarrukh. So you cannot actually use manipulate form to boost stats into the stratosphere.

What you can do is give yourself spell like abilities, but they are still based on your hit dice and Charisma (18 for sarrukh). Thats based on assumption that wildshaping into a sarrukh gives you access to Manipulate Form, plus you can use it on yourself, which raises question about why the sample Sarrukh characters haven't already done it.

Am I missing something?

[leperkhaun]

It explicitly says: attribute adjustments are up to the maximum normal attributes of the Sarrukh. So you cannot actually use manipulate form to boost stats into the stratosphere.

What you can do is give yourself spell like abilities, but they are still based on your hit dice and Charisma (18 for sarrukh). Thats based on assumption that wildshaping into a sarrukh gives you access to Manipulate Form, plus you can use it on yourself, which raises question about why the sample Sarrukh characters haven't already done it.

Am I missing something?

because that was not the original intent of the ability, pun pun was an exersice to show how broken it was and just to see if it could be done.

[hamishspence]

I see all these claims that you can have a character with infinite stats, look at the rules, and notice that don't actually allow that. That is why I was puzzled.

Now going overboard with spell-like abilities might be fun, but their power is still limited by the fact that Caster level is based on Hit dice. On the other hand a 17HD kobold with Wish at will (SLAs don't use XP penalties) would be...alarming.

[Ecalsneerg]

By RAW, Manipulate Form allows you to give yourselves abilities which don't exist in the game.

And that's how it works. Pun-Pun has every ability which could feasibly exist including the (Ex) ability of stupidly high stats.

[MorkaisChosen]

Pun-Pun uses Manipulate Form on his Familiar to give it Manipulate Form to use on him. The maximum for the attributes depends on your view of "maximum"- if using an SLA to get bigger (and therefore higher strength) increases your "normal maximum" stats, you can then bestow them on the familiar (with Manipulate Form SLA your familiar gave you). The Familiar then becomes Gargantuan, rasing its stats, and giving its Strength to Pun-Pun.

It all depends on that "normal maximum".

[Talic]

The Sarrukh can still grant any ability, including Divine Rank 0.

That should be enough to Alter Reality on the self.

[hamishspence]

A stat is not an ability: they are described differently, in different sections of the Manipulate Form rules.

Manipulate Form is an example of the sort of thing where DM Fiat comes it: the limits are not defined, so the DM defines them. Same principle applies to Wish: "I wish to be a demigod" would not be allowed, because demigodhood is way above the typical power level of Wish.

If the Errata for Serpent Kingdoms says "any ability up to Divine Rank 0", its a pretty poor errata.

similarly, if you ask for an ability not listed in the game, its DMs decision how powerful that ability can be, or if it is available. Basically, to get Pun-Pun, you need a co-operative DM, which sort of misses the point. If DM is that co-operative there are more fun things to do.

[Justyn]

The Sarrukh can still grant any ability, including Divine Rank 0.

That should be enough to Alter Reality on the self.

I take it that either you do not have Serpent Kingdoms or Deities and Demigods or have not read them in a while.

Firstly: a Sarrukhs' Manipulate Form abilty allows them to alter ability scores, bodies, and add or remove extraordinary abilities, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.

Secondly: Divine Rank is likened to character level, which the Manipulate Form ability has no control over. Also, all Salient Divine Abilities require a Divine Rank of at least 1; and I'm no Mathamancer, but I think that 0 is less than 1.

[hamishspence]

If you extend it all the way to granting templates (you probably shouldn't) cheese awaits, especially with the paragon creature template. Push stats up to maximum sarrukh stats, the add template. But that is predicated on the DM allowing Manipulate Form to add templates: sensible DM would not (and maybe require you to have actually seen a sarrukh to change into its form anyway: they are rare beasties)

[Illiterate Scribe]

If you extend it all the way to granting templates (you probably shouldn't) cheese awaits, especially with the paragon creature template. Push stats up to maximum sarrukh stats, the add template. But that is predicated on the DM allowing Manipulate Form to add templates: sensible DM would not (and maybe require you to have actually seen a sarrukh to change into its form anyway: they are rare beasties)

Err ... DM? Sorry, but have you read the original thread?

[Starbuck_II]

I take it that either you do not have Serpent Kingdoms or Deities and Demigods or have not read them in a while.

Firstly: a Sarrukhs' Manipulate Form abilty allows them to alter ability scores, bodies, and add or remove extraordinary abilities, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.

Secondly: Divine Rank is likened to character level, which the Manipulate Form ability has no control over. Also, all Salient Divine Abilities require a Divine Rank of at least 1; and I'm no Mathamancer, but I think that 0 is less than 1.

Once you have Divine Rank 0, I'm pretty sure you start getting followers and gaining power till you count as 1. (been a while since I read Pun-Pun's tactics).

[Armads]

I take it that either you do not have Serpent Kingdoms or Deities and Demigods or have not read them in a while.

Firstly: a Sarrukhs' Manipulate Form abilty allows them to alter ability scores, bodies, and add or remove extraordinary abilities, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.

Secondly: Divine Rank is likened to character level, which the Manipulate Form ability has no control over. Also, all Salient Divine Abilities require a Divine Rank of at least 1; and I'm no Mathamancer, but I think that 0 is less than 1.

At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, it can cause one alteration of its choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconcious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 22 Fortitude dave negates both the change and the unconciousness. Sarrukh are immune to this effect.
A sarrukh may use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. It may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing the overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it.
The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanant. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind.

(this is from the Pun-pun thread)

Nowhere does it state that it's the sarrukh's normal ability score. Also, since you can get any Ex ability, even those that don't exist in books, you can give yourself an ability called "Gain Divine Rank (Ex)": Whenever Pun-Pun says something, he gains a divine rank.

Or are there any problems with this (besides the fact that no sane DM will ever allow this)?

[MorkaisChosen]

Ice Assassin SLA to make Gods which make you into Emissaries (giving you Divine Rank 1), then you giv your Divine Rank to a squirrel, get another rank, give it to a squirrel. Do that until you have as many Divine Ranks as you want, then call them back from the Squirrels to become a Divine Rank several hundred Overdeity.

To be honest, you don't even need the NI stats with that- if you had Divine Rank 30, you get to add it to prtty much everything...

[Eldariel]

But you DO get infinite stats. What you use is a loop of changing your familiars size, assuming its new strength, changing its size back, giving it your strength and repeating. Once you have arbitrarily high Str, you can move it onto the other abilities. Just read the Pun Pun-thread. It's read by all the hardcore optimizers in the world; chances are it's legal.

[MorkaisChosen]

I know you can, I'm just saying you don't need to. Plus it's easier to just get a decent Divine Rank and Alter Reality to fit your whims.

[hamishspence]

It said: Maximum equal to the sarrukhs corresponding Score. so its pretty useless to use on yourself to increase your abilty scores, since rule does not let you do that. Using it on others, limit is still your ability scores.

I looked at the rules for the sarrukh, rather than full thread: anything that exceeds what a normal sarrukh can do with it should be ruled out by the DM.

Same principle applies to a character who has used Wish a lot: cannot be considered as a "Real" character if it has powers that required DMs cooperation to have.

I saw Pun-pun not as a flaw in the rules, as much as a flaw in the DM: DMS should not let players make up extraordinary or supernatural abilities without their input.

[Griffin131]

It said: Maximum equal to the sarrukhs corresponding Score. so its pretty useless to use on yourself to increase your abilty scores, since rule does not let you do that. Using it on others, limit is still your ability scores.

Use MF on your snake familiar, giving it STR equal to you.
Grow your snake familiar.
Give your snake familiar MF.
Direct MF to give you STR equal to it.
Dismiss Grow on your snake familiar.
Start at step 1.
Repeat for other stats.

[Artemician]

It said: Maximum equal to the sarrukhs corresponding Score. so its pretty useless to use on yourself to increase your abilty scores, since rule does not let you do that. Using it on others, limit is still your ability scores.

I looked at the rules for the sarrukh, rather than full thread: anything that exceeds what a normal sarrukh can do with it should be ruled out by the DM.

Same principle applies to a character who has used Wish a lot: cannot be considered as a "Real" character if it has powers that required DMs cooperation to have.

I saw Pun-pun not as a flaw in the rules, as much as a flaw in the DM: DMS should not let players make up extraordinary or supernatural abilities without their input.

Why are you trying to apply Rule 0 to a thought experiment?

[MorkaisChosen]

Use MF on your snake familiar, giving it STR equal to you.
Grow your snake familiar.
Give your snake familiar MF.
Direct MF to give you STR equal to it.
Dismiss Grow on your snake familiar.
Start at step 1.
Repeat for other stats.

This Repeat to Other Stats requires either a method to increase other stats (Bear's Endurance style spells?) or a way to use your Str for something else (Void Disciple trick).

[Kurald Galain]

I looked at the rules for the sarrukh, rather than full thread: anything that exceeds what a normal sarrukh can do with it should be ruled out by the DM.

I'm reasonably certain that anything resembling Pun-Pun would be ruled out by pretty much every DM, regardless of what the rules say

Anyway, I don't have the books here but I believe the trick is that you can increase stats to the Sarrukh's maximum, and then use something (e.g. bull's strength) to increase that maximum.

Assuming my familiar is a Sarrukh with strength 20. I ask it to boost my strength to 20. Then I polymorph into a sarrukh, and the familiar into a kobold. I cast enlarge or bull's strength or whatever on myself to boost my strength to 24 or more. Then I use the Sarrukh's ability to boost my familiar's strength to 24. I dispel everything. Now my familiar is a Sarrukh with strength 24, which he can bestow on me. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Arbitrarity]

Also, if fate link/blood of the martyr do the same type of damage to the participants as the recipient takes, you might be able to pull an infinite damage (electric) CON-boosting loop. IIRC.

So, rather than arbitrarily high stats, actual, literal, infinite stats.

[Mr. Friendly]

Quite frankly, I find the LoP's "Behold!" trick to be much worse and easier to get into a game.

[Talic]

It said: Maximum equal to the sarrukhs corresponding Score. so its pretty useless to use on yourself to increase your abilty scores, since rule does not let you do that. Using it on others, limit is still your ability scores.

Yes. So, I do the following: Touch my familiar, choose to increase its size. It gains corresponding str bonuses for increased size. Also give it the ability I have.
Step 2. my familiar touches me. boosts my strength to its strength. It then does another touch, increasing my size. I gain corresponding bonuses to strength. I then touch my familiar, shrinking it. I then touch again, increasing its strength to mine. I then touch it again, increasing its size.

See?

I looked at the rules for the sarrukh, rather than full thread: anything that exceeds what a normal sarrukh can do with it should be ruled out by the DM.

Yes, and anyone who tries to create 40 Nightsticks to use with their DMM should be banned. But "should" and "allowed by RAW" don't always meet.

Same principle applies to a character who has used Wish a lot: cannot be considered as a "Real" character if it has powers that required DMs cooperation to have.

Then all characters aren't real characters. The DM has the power to allow or disallow any sourcebook. Thus, all characters require DM cooperation.

I saw Pun-pun not as a flaw in the rules, as much as a flaw in the DM: DMS should not let players make up extraordinary or supernatural abilities without their input.

All allowable broken rules are flaws in the DM. You are arguing Oberoni fallacy.

[MorkaisChosen]

Quite frankly, I find the LoP's "Behold!" trick to be much worse and easier to get into a game.

What is this, for the non-initiated?

[Griffin131]

This Repeat to Other Stats requires either a method to increase other stats (Bear's Endurance style spells?) or a way to use your Str for something else (Void Disciple trick).

And? Theres a buff for every stat, and you can give your familiar and yourself a way to cast them at will.

[Mr. Friendly]

What is this, for the non-initiated?

Requires level 6ish total I think, for it to start.

You need to have PsyWarrior or Psion levels. You need the feat Metamorphic Transfer - twice. MMT lets you gain Su abilities of forms you change into, via Polymorph and such. MMT1 you choose "Antimagic Eye" of Beholder and MMT2 you choose "Eye Rays" of Beholder.

You then either pay a caster, buy a scroll and UMD or some other method... and BEHOLD! you have Polymorph any Object on you... form of... a BEHOLDER!

If you have a high enough INT, it will be Permanent duration. (Still dispellable though..)

Now you qualify for the Beholder Mage PrC from LoM. Every level in it gives you 2 Sorcerer Caster Levels and ultimately allows you to cast 10 spells per round as free actions.

It's a lot of work for... well I would say nothing that impressive, but thats just cool honestly.

[Eldariel]

Pun-Pun is level 1, any race. You just need to summon Pazuzu through the Knowledge-check and get started. Read Character Optimization Index over at Wizards for all about Pun-Pun.

Now, you need to realize that Pun-Pun was never meant to be played. The point of Pun-Pun is ironically the opposite; to put an end to all attempts at making the best possible D&D character. Basically, Pun-Pun wins D&D. So all who're ranting how Pun-Pun would get Rule 0d by all DMs, that's not the point! It's not meant to be allowed by any DMs. It's what we call Theorethical Optimization; optimization just for the sake of optimization and for the "just 'cause I can"-factor.

[Aquillion]

It explicitly says: attribute adjustments are up to the maximum normal attributes of the Sarrukh. So you cannot actually use manipulate form to boost stats into the stratosphere.

What you can do is give yourself spell like abilities, but they are still based on your hit dice and Charisma (18 for sarrukh). Thats based on assumption that wildshaping into a sarrukh gives you access to Manipulate Form, plus you can use it on yourself, which raises question about why the sample Sarrukh characters haven't already done it.

Am I missing something?

The definitive thread on Pun-Pun here explains most of your misconceptions. There is a way around the stat limitation (somewhat convoluted, but basically it only cares about your current stat, and lets you use that to change someone's base stat -- so you use something to temporarily boost your stat, then raise the base stat of your familiar to the new total, then dispel your booster and have your familiar change your base stat to the new total, then cast the booster again... you get the idea. Read the thread for the details.)

Manipulate Form does not work on Sarrukh. However, the argument is that you can use it to grant any ability, including manipulate form. So, you turn into a Sarrukh, grant manipulate form to your familiar, turn back into a kobold, and your familiar can now grant manipulate form back to you. After that you can use it yourself because you're not a Sarrukh anymore.

However, I have a much more basic problem with the Pun-Pun trick. It comes down to this:

Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it.

Pun-Pun depends on interpreting that to mean that a Sarrukh can grant any ex, su, or spell-like ability. I argue that that interpretation is simply absurd. It plainly isn't RAI, but I don't think it's RAW, either -- the rules simply don't specify what abilities a Sarrukh can grant. That doesn't mean you get to just pull any abilities you want out of thin air; it means that it's DM call, like anything else the books don't specify.

It is still possible to raise your stats arbitrarily high (though the trick is much, much harder and more slow, since you will need two people capable of turning into Sarrukhs, and they'll have to take turns changing back and forth to become valid targets for manipulate form, and you'll have to actually cast the stat boosters instead of just granting yourself the ability to cast them at will as a spell-like ability). But it isn't nearly as broken as it's made out to be.

[Talic]

However, I have a much more basic problem with the Pun-Pun trick. It comes down to this:Pun-Pun depends on interpreting that to mean that a Sarrukh can grant any ex, su, or spell-like ability. I argue that that interpretation is simply absurd. It plainly isn't RAI, but I don't think it's RAW, either -- the rules simply don't specify what abilities a Sarrukh can grant. That doesn't mean you get to just pull any abilities you want out of thin air; it means that it's DM call, like anything else the books don't specify.

The default for unspecified choices is "any currently existing XXX of this type is legal, unless specified otherwise."

After all, weapon focus says to "Choose one type of weapon." It doesn't specify ANY weapon, so, by the argument that the Sarrukh doesn't say "any ability", (thus, by RAW, doesn't grant any ability) then Weapon focus doesn't specify any weapon, so it's not RAW to choose any weapon with weapon finesse. Check with your DM to see which weapons are ok, and which are OP with Weapon Focus.

The Sarrukh was meant to be a DM only critter. Players found a way to exploit it. That doesn't mean that the creature's ability should be weaker.

Thus, using the Sarrukh's ability, you could grant yourself all the vorpal swords you wanted, boost your stats, get the Tarrasque's form of regeneration, an undead's immunities, immunity to every elemental damage type, a swarm's immunity to weapon damage etc etc etc.

[monty]

Just give yourself the (Ex) ability to increase your stats at will. Not that hard.