Artificers: Is WotC stupid, or am I the idiot?

[Calemyr]

First off, I love the concept of the artificer class. However, there seems to be a very glaring oversight that I cannot seem to work my mind around:

The major bonus of reaching level 4 as an artificer is the ability to craft homunculi. There's just one catch, and that's the fact that they still need to emulate the spells to pull it off. The core spell for a homunculus, the spell that is in every variant I've seen, is Arcane Eye, which is level 4.

An artificer can emulate spells as if they were two levels higher. This doesn't make their spells stronger, but it does give them access to spell levels faster. However, the earliest anyone can cast Arcane Eye is at level 7 as a wizard, which means an artificer can emulate it at level 5. That means that they give you the Craft Homunculus class feature a full level before the earliest you can use it.

Am I reading the rules wrong? Was there an errata I missed? Or is that really as dumb as it seems to me?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

You do not have to cast the spell yourself.

You can get access through magic items or other spellcasters.

The MM also lists level 4 as the required level.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Arcane Eye may appear on another class' spell list at a lower level, but I see no reason why you would assume WotC wasn't that dumb. They seem to enjoy printing errata, to the point whee it is necessary just to make the game playable.

[Solo]

WotC farked up.

[Telonius]

Unless I'm wrong (and I am away from the books), there's no specific limit on the spell level you can emulate through UMD. The only limit is how well you roll. At level 4, you should have seven ranks in UMD. Chip in for some masterwork tools, or UMD-increasing item if you really need it, and you should be fine.

[Tengu]

Arcane Eye may appear on another class' spell list at a lower level, but I see no reason why you would assume WotC wasn't that dumb. They seem to enjoy printing errata, to the point whee it is necessary just to make the game playable.

I'd like to second this notion.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Arcane Eye is a first level spell for a Trapsmith. Have fun with your Homoculus.

[shadow_archmagi]

Unless I'm wrong (and I am away from the books), there's no specific limit on the spell level you can emulate through UMD. The only limit is how well you roll. At level 4, you should have seven ranks in UMD. Chip in for some masterwork tools, or UMD-increasing item if you really need it, and you should be fine.

That was my interpretation as well.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Unless I'm wrong (and I am away from the books), there's no specific limit on the spell level you can emulate through UMD. The only limit is how well you roll. At level 4, you should have seven ranks in UMD. Chip in for some masterwork tools, or UMD-increasing item if you really need it, and you should be fine.

You can emulate a higher caster level, but not a spell level of more than one above what you would be able to cast.

Yes, terminology needs to be refined in all D&D products. Add that to the list of common sense things that WotC will never do.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Arcane Eye is a first level spell for a Trapsmith. Have fun with your Homoculus.

Aah, trapsmith, trapsmith, how I do adore your random and game-threateningly levelled spells.

<3

[Calemyr]

That's a prestige class, though. Can artificers use prestige class spell lists?

[Illiterate Scribe]

That's a prestige class, though. Can artificers use prestige class spell lists?

Yup, thus posing a major problem. It's any spell list.

[SamTheCleric]

Gotta love Haste as a first level spell.

[ArmorArmadillo]

You do not have to cast the spell yourself.

You can get access through magic items or other spellcasters.

The MM also lists level 4 as the required level.

Did you all miss this post? It seems to explain the whole thing very clearly.

[Telonius]

Very clearly, unless you are unable to obtain it through magic items or other spellcasters.

[Calemyr]

That's a good bit of it, I'm afraid. scrolls of Arcane Eye are not a common find in random loot, if I've got a level 7 wizard in my party and stuck at level 4 I've got more problems than crafting homunculi, and hiring a level 7 caster to cast a level 4 spell is rather expensive for a level 4 character, even if he has the resources to find one, especially after you count the expense of creating the homunculus.

That said, the use of presitge class spell lists seems somewhat dirty pool to me, which leaves me stuck where I started.

[DementedFellow]

That's a good bit of it, I'm afraid. scrolls of Arcane Eye are not a common find in random loot, if I've got a level 7 wizard in my party and stuck at level 4 I've got more problems than crafting homunculi, and hiring a level 7 caster to cast a level 4 spell is rather expensive for a level 4 character, even if he has the resources to find one, especially after you count the expense of creating the homunculus.

That said, the use of presitge class spell lists seems somewhat dirty pool to me, which leaves me stuck where I started.

Just offer the wizard something to be made via your new homunculus. Offer to sell it to him at the cost it takes to make it. Chances are you'll sooner or later have the feat that will reduce the cost, so you can still make out with a profit, albeit a small one. No one will turn down a low-level magic item at half cost for the simple task of waving your hands and saying a few words.

[Flickerdart]

Set up a homuculus mass-production venture and split profits 50/50.

By the way, which book is the Artificer in?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

By the way, which book is the Artificer in?

Eberron Camapign Setting.

[Reel On, Love]

That's a good bit of it, I'm afraid. scrolls of Arcane Eye are not a common find in random loot, if I've got a level 7 wizard in my party and stuck at level 4 I've got more problems than crafting homunculi, and hiring a level 7 caster to cast a level 4 spell is rather expensive for a level 4 character, even if he has the resources to find one, especially after you count the expense of creating the homunculus.

That said, the use of presitge class spell lists seems somewhat dirty pool to me, which leaves me stuck where I started.

Hiring a level 7 caster to cast a single level 4 spell costs 40 * 7 = 280 gp. That's not bad at all.

[Aleron]

Just offer the wizard something to be made via your new homunculus. Offer to sell it to him at the cost it takes to make it. Chances are you'll sooner or later have the feat that will reduce the cost, so you can still make out with a profit, albeit a small one. No one will turn down a low-level magic item at half cost for the simple task of waving your hands and saying a few words.

Problem is that, if I'm not mistaken, a homunclus can't actually be sold. Says so in the description I believe.

And flickerdart, they're in the Eberon Campaign Setting book

[Aleron]

Hiring a level 7 caster to cast a single level 4 spell costs 40 * 7 = 280 gp. That's not bad at all.

Assuming your DM is nice and doesn't have the wizard charge you extra. I Know mine would :(

[DementedFellow]

no, I'm not saying you sell the homunculi, you sell the first thing he makes to the helpful spellcaster. So basically, "Hey bud, cast this spell for me and I'll make you a bag of tricks and charge you half market value."

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Assuming your DM is nice and doesn't have the wizard charge you extra. I Know mine would :(

Yeah, my DM always charges 4 billion times the cost of PHB items and services.

All fighters use Quarterstaffs, since they can't afford any other item until Epic.

Oh wait, DMs arbitrarily changing the costs to spite a class's main unique feature is retarded and people don't do it.

Far more likely that a decent DM would give you a discount on the cost of the spell so that you can have your Class feature.

Of course, as one person already said, you can emulate a 9th level spell with a level 1 Artificer for crafting, as long as you can make the UMD check.

[Aquillion]

Oh wait, DMs arbitrarily changing the costs to spite a class's main unique feature is retarded and people don't do it.

To be fair, this is the artificer. It's not as though they're going to be crippled by not having a homunculus for one level. It'd still annoy me, though.

Of course, as one person already said, you can emulate a 9th level spell with a level 1 Artificer for crafting, as long as you can make the UMD check.

Nope. Artificers mimick spells using their artificer level + 2 for their caster level, and can't mimick a spell with a caster level too low to cast it; your Artificer level must be at least twice the spell's level, -3.

[Jack Mann]

Yeah, my DM always charges 4 billion times the cost of PHB items and services.

All fighters use Quarterstaffs, since they can't afford any other item until Epic.

Oh wait, DMs arbitrarily changing the costs to spite a class's main unique feature is retarded and people don't do it.

Well, to be fair, some people do. But yeah, they're generally morons for doing so.

[Aleron]

Yeah, my DM always charges 4 billion times the cost of PHB items and services.

All fighters use Quarterstaffs, since they can't afford any other item until Epic.

Oh wait, DMs arbitrarily changing the costs to spite a class's main unique feature is retarded and people don't do it.

Far more likely that a decent DM would give you a discount on the cost of the spell so that you can have your Class feature.

Of course, as one person already said, you can emulate a 9th level spell with a level 1 Artificer for crafting, as long as you can make the UMD check.

... ... ...Wow...over react much? I said charge MORE than standard, not make the cost impossible to handle, shesh.

[Calemyr]

Well, my DM decided to just make Arcane Eye a level 3 spell after finding that nobody had a "good" way of dealing with it. Smart move, if you ask me, because that solves the issue simply and without opening the door on some of the more dangerous solutions like allowing prestige class spell lists.

[hamishspence]

Same problem applies to the crusader: because they get their last stance at 14th level (and apparently they MUST choose a stance when it becomes available) a single class crusader cannot access 8th level stances, not even from the crusader-only Devoted Spirit school, without choosing feats.

Definitely makes one think someone hasn't done their proofreading well. A case for little adjustments: maybe delaying access to the last stance, since it LOOKS like weakening the crusader through earlier levels, but actually gives them access to the ability they should have access to, without them having to spend their feats on their own stances.

How common are things that look like obvious bugs in the class design?

[Calemyr]

Well, if it comes to that, I still don't like how they deal with upgrading homunculi in the first place. 4k per hit die? Yeah, that might be trivial in high level situations, but that's crippling at early levels where the homunculi are actually useful tools.