A quick-fix for a newbie playing Monk?

[Frosty]

I have someone who insists on playing the MONK class (and nothing else but the Monk class because he likes the flavor and all the "cool abilities!!" he saw). I have tried to dissuade him to no avail, and now I gotta figure out a way for him tobe able to contribute meaningfully. Now, keep in mind that this guy doesn't know squat about optimizing, so if some of the fixes seem "over the top if combined with other things" well...he won't be combining it other things. Tell me what you think about a quick-fix:

Full BAB
Body is enchanteable like a normal weapon (Flaming fist!!!)
Unarmed strikes and such will eventually be able to overcome all DR.
Flurry of blows can also be used to deliver two attacks as a standard action or at the end of a charge.
Dimension Door becomes Wisdom times/day.
Gains Airwalk Wisdom times/day (Caster level = Druid of the same level) starting at level 10
Lose Slow Fall.
6 skill points per level.

Would this be good enough to let the Monk keep up? I also also give him 18 in all stats.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Show him the unarmed swordsage. Yeah, he'll just pick "PW000N!" Desert Wind maneuvers, but at least he'll be semi effective.

[Rutee]

Desert Wind, like Blasting, is effective. It's only not useful when you compare to "Save or Suck, game's over", really.

[Solo]

He'll never learn if you baby him.

[Rutee]

Solo, this is a newbie. You help them have fun, not leave them to wallow in mediocrity due to inexperience, then have them eventually discover the horrific truth, then leave in disgust.

[ColonelFuster]

Try showing him "Battle Dancer" if you have the Dragon Compendium- it makes many of the fixes you mentioned here, and they're chaotic, which is easier to play for newbies. If not, I think you may want to go with just a few of these- flaming fists (I already do this), and give six skill points instead of slow fall. Top it off with the favored enemy ability (they all train in a monastery, right? with a master that probably knows how to fight one thing really well, right?) and you should be good to go without having to raise the BAB.

[Solo]

He's a poor optimizer, but it was not stated that he is a newbie.

And frankly, while tweaking a class is ok, giving one player 18 in all stats is going to cause problems in the gaming group.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Desert Wind, like Blasting, is effective. It's only not useful when you compare to "Save or Suck, game's over", really.

I beg to differ. Most high level mobs have fire resistance 30. That's most of your 'neuvers useless, right there. Even Inferno blast's efficency is reduced by 30%, and it's your effing level 9 maneuver!

Meanwhile, a Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw Swordsage, a Devoted Spirit Crusader, or an Iron Heart Warblade are all comfortably inflicting more than double your damage (70 damage to 150 damage), every turn. It simply is very subpar. And a Setting Sun defensive Swordsage or Stone Dragon anything is STILL better than you. It just plain sucks.

[Frosty]

He's a poor optimizer, but it was not stated that he is a newbie.

*points to the THREAD TITLE*

[Aleron]

Monks aren't that inherantly broken(weak). It all depends on how he wants to play his monk, and the feats he uses to get there. If it's a secondary heavy hitter, suggest he take Improved Natural Attack(requires BAB 4, so take at level 6) from Monster Manual 4, and if he still wants to be "armored" go high Dex/wis, and less str and either take weapon finess or Intuitive Attack(BoED) at level 3 so he has a better time hitting.
His unarmed attacks naturally gain, over time, ways to overcome some damage reduction(Magic/holy/Adamantine) as it is. There is an item, "Amulet of Natural Attacks" from Savage species that allows him to enchant his natural attacks like others can enchant weapons.

Or the other roll he plays well is the flanker because of his speed and possible sneakiness. If that's the case just look up some feats that move in that direction and he'll be equally as usefull.

There's no need for the Airwalk in place of slowfall...monks are ground fighters. If he wants ranged let him take weapon profency Longbow...

I will agree in theory on the Dimension Door change...but that could get ugly...as my monks normally have a wis bonus around 7-8 by level 12...

[Solo]

*points to the THREAD TITLE*

Fair enough, but I stand by my point that giving one player 18 in all stats is going to cause problems in the group.

[Sir Giacomo]

Tell me what you think about a quick-fix:

Full BAB
Body is enchanteable like a normal weapon (Flaming fist!!!)
Unarmed strikes and such will eventually be able to overcome all DR.
Flurry of blows can also be used to deliver two attacks as a standard action or at the end of a charge.
Dimension Door becomes Wisdom times/day.
Gains Airwalk Wisdom times/day (Caster level = Druid of the same level) starting at level 10
Lose Slow Fall.
6 skill points per level.

Would this be good enough to let the Monk keep up? I also also give him 18 in all stats.

At a first glance, way too overpowered. Plus, it's also possible within the existing rules, so no "quick fix" needed...

full BAB? Get divine power effect.
Body enchantable? Get the spells holy sword or greater magic weapon since the monk's unarmed strike are considered manufactured weapons.
Overcome DR? Get Align weapon if you need it, otherwise magic, lawful, and adamantine are yours eventuallly.
Flurry of blows at end of charge/with movement? Get pounce (non-core items allow this, as does polymorph), get a mount. Or, get an intelligent item that does the moving for you. Or get a belt of battle (non-core).
More dimension door? Get items that do it. (wand, cape of mountebank).
Gain airwalk? Forget airwalk. Get a flying item (boots of flying for 16,000 are good) and add your movement enhancement bonus on top. Way better than any air walk.
Lose slow fall? Why? It is much underrated. In dungeons (traps etc.) it's golden. Plus, it adds to your movement total.
6 skill points per level? Why? Be human with INT 14 (INT 18 as intended by you). 7 or 9 skill points per level. It can hardly get better.


Additionally, it depends on what the others in the group play and what sources you admit for character creation (also, what point buy).
At what level will your group start?

If you're patient, I'll post a core monk guide by the end of this week. That could help, too.

- Giacomo

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah. The other players are going to veto the newbie so that he plays something that can actually use Captain America stats effectively.

[Rutee]

He's a poor optimizer, but it was not stated that he is a newbie.

Owned by the thread title.

I beg to differ. Most high level mobs have fire resistance 30. That's most of your 'neuvers useless, right there. Even Inferno blast's efficency is reduced by 30%, and it's your effing level 9 maneuver!

I know about Fire Resistance; I don't care; For that matter, most of the higher end mobs are immune to Sneak Attack, yet we don't call Rogues useless. When we get to "Mechanics that can be used to cripple characters", I must leave some trust to the GM to either not throw those mobs at players, or to change the mechanics. It's not RAW, but screw RAW; Games don't get played on RAW.

Meanwhile, a Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw Swordsage, a Devoted Spirit Crusader, or an Iron Heart Warblade are all comfortably inflicting more than double your damage (70 damage to 150 damage), every turn. It simply is very subpar. And a Setting Sun defensive Swordsage or Stone Dragon anything is STILL better than you. It just plain sucks.

What idiot swordsage goes completely in one style or another, after the opening levels (If even the opening levels)? You've got too many maneuvers to limit yourself to one or another. A lot of the Desert Wind boosts are sexylicious. Offhand, I recall an average of 590ish damage through the levelled up versions of Burning Blade, Dancing Mongoose, Which Dual Boost makes possible, and Time Stands Still. Further, Desert Wind gives something you sorely lack as melee; AoE Capability. Sure, you're subpar going into just Desert Wind, but I'd argue you're subpar if you go into any single one style anyway.

[Frosty]

Fair enough, but I stand by my point that giving one player 18 in all stats is going to cause problems in the group.

A definitely possibility. however, I've talked to the rest of the group. Every one of them including the player who formerly played a Samurai/Truenamer (and has since learned the error of his ways) agrees that the monk needs some work.

Besides the 18 in all stats, what do you think of the other fixes I proposed?

[Illiterate Scribe]

If you're patient, I'll post a core monk guide by the end of this week. That could help, too.

- Giacomo

Please do. Inquiring minds want to have this. Also, how's that build/sheet coming along, Gia?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Owned by the thread title.


I know about Fire Resistance; I don't care; For that matter, most of the higher end mobs are immune to Sneak Attack, yet we don't call Rogues useless. When we get to "Mechanics that can be used to cripple characters", I must leave some trust to the GM to either not throw those mobs at players, or to change the mechanics. It's not RAW, but screw RAW; Games don't get played on RAW.


What idiot swordsage goes completely in one style or another, after the opening levels (If even the opening levels)? You've got too many maneuvers to limit yourself to one or another. A lot of the Desert Wind boosts are sexylicious. Offhand, I recall an average of 590ish damage through the levelled up versions of Burning Blade, Dancing Mongoose, Which Dual Boost makes possible, and Time Stands Still. Further, Desert Wind gives something you sorely lack as melee; AoE Capability. Sure, you're subpar going into just Desert Wind, but I'd argue you're subpar if you go into any single one style anyway.

Ahem. There's some bee-ooo-tee-fool things known as spells, weapon crystals, and the truly awe inspiring Penetrating strike. THAT is the reason rogues are not on the level of blasters.

Well, that and the 100d6 SA damage to non immunes, 50d6 to immunes, plus insane ambush attacks.

And Burning blade? Pshaw, Girallon Windmill Flesh rip, or simply Wraithstrike Tattoo or whatever and Avalanche of Blades away.

And notice you said boosts. The strikes, which is what I'm targeting, suck. Hard.

Finally, what the hell d'you need AoE for? You're felling an enemy per turn, guaranteed, if they come en masse. An effective team behind you, and the encounter's over one the first turn.


Also: Crap, Giacomo's in da haus. We should run.

Frosty: As said, unarmed swordsage. Or possibly a Factotum, a Factotum can do ANYTHING well, even monk, if it has enough FoI.

[Sir Giacomo]

Please do. Inquiring minds want to have this. Also, how's that build/sheet coming along, Gia?

It's going to be part of the guide....

- Giacomo

[Solo]

*stabs Rutee and the thread title*

[Illiterate Scribe]

It's going to be part of the guide....

- Giacomo

Cue 24-style clock.



Not correct time due to lack of shoopin' skill.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Full BAB: yes

Body is enchanteable like a normal weapon (Flaming fist!!!): I'd make it so that the limbs AND the body can be enchanted. Limbs as weapons, and body as armor.

Unarmed strikes and such will eventually be able to overcome all DR: yes


Flurry of blows can also be used to deliver two attacks as a standard action or at the end of a charge: I'd edit it so that the extra attacks from flurry can be used during standard and full-round attack actions. Much clearer.


Dimension Door becomes Wisdom times/day: yes

Gains Airwalk Wisdom times/day (Caster level = Druid of the same level) starting at level 10: yes

Lose Slow Fall: I'd leave it, but improve it to work like a limited Feather Fall.

6 skill points per level: yes

All together, it looks like a workable fix so far. I'd let players use it in my games so long as they don't somehow use expolits of the changes for things such as PrC prereqs.

[Telonius]

The quick fix sounds okay. Here's what I usually do to help Monks keep up.

- Full BAB.
- Enchantable fists and body. Monk counts as a caster for purposes of enchanting his own natural attack and AC. Must spend time/gold/XP as though he were crafting an equivalent-bonus magic item.
- Proficiency in gauntlet. Because it's mighty silly for him not to have it.
- Monk can power attack with his unarmed strike two-handed if he wants, but only when not using the Flurry of Blows ability.
- Other weird Monk abilities stay as they are, because they're part of what makes a Monk a Monk.

[Nohwl]

how do you get 100d6 sneak attack damage?

[Illiterate Scribe]

how do you get 100d6 sneak attack damage?

Ten attacks with 10d6 SA, methinks.

[Rutee]

Ahem. There's some bee-ooo-tee-fool things known as spells, weapon crystals, and the truly awe inspiring Penetrating strike. THAT is the reason rogues are not on the level of blasters.

Respectively:
If UMD is a core aspect of your ability set you're just a wannabe mage
Never Heard of that crap
Never Heard of that crap.

And Burning blade? Pshaw, Girallon Windmill Flesh rip, or simply Wraithstrike Tattoo or whatever and Avalanche of Blades away.

GWFR caps at 20d6. The uppermost levels of Burning Blade are 3d6 +1/IL an attack. You need 8 attacks to land for GWFR to get 20d6. 8 attacks from the highest level of Burning Blade is 24d6 + 160. GWFR is literally only better on Fire Resistance, which if you have a DW focused SS you had damned well better not be tossing at the PCs anyway. That's like constantly throwing constructs with an Enchanter or Beguiler and Rogue in tow for. Sure, the classes /work/, but the player clearly didn't want to face their achilles all the damn time.

And notice you said boosts. The strikes, which is what I'm targeting, suck. Hard.

The strikes are AoE. If you were expecting them to hit as hard on an individual, you were sorely mistaken to begin with.

Finally, what the hell d'you need AoE for? You're felling an enemy per turn, guaranteed, if they come en masse. An effective team behind you, and the encounter's over one the first turn.

Maybe the wizard banned evocation

Also: Crap, Giacomo's in da haus. We should run.

If you don't pay attention to him, he'll go away.

[holywhippet]

Give him some +1 shuriken with a returning enchantment. Shuriken work with flurry of blows so even at level 1 he can toss four of them each round. Assuming he is medium sized, they will be doing 1d2 + 1 per hit. If they all hit their target that will mean 8 - 12 damage. If someone casts enlarge on him (making him large sized) that changes to 1d3 + 1 per hit = 8 - 16 damage.

When he starts getting some decent money he can pay for extra enchantments like fire/electrical/sonic/cold damage.

[hamishspence]

Weapon crystals are in Magic Item Compendium and allow rogue to punch through constructs and undead (simpler than taking expensive prestige classes (skullclan Hunter) or feats.

Penetrating Strike is from Players Handbook 2 and turns arrows into line attacks.

[Emperor Tippy]

It makes the monk playable.

[Solo]

If you don't pay attention to him, he'll go away.

So Giacomo only exists if we believe in him?

[tyckspoon]

The strikes are AoE. If you were expecting them to hit as hard on an individual, you were sorely mistaken to begin with.

It would be nice if they were at least as good as already below-average wizard evocations, tho. All of the area of effect strikes do poorer damage than an equivalent level wizard spell to start with, and then they don't scale and there aren't any metamagic-style feats that could be used to boost them, so they'll always be behind.