Glibness

[Dark Dork]

Glibness is a really powerful spell.

To me it seems really unbalanced, especially when a Beguiler uses it as they can get at as low as 6th level.

I know it only affects telling lies with the skill, but a +30 on bluff checks for a minute per level, even without investing ranks in it, means they're gonna believe you every time. It's like diplomancy but without the build; Just one spell, and you can circumvent most encounters without combat many resources.

I was considering nerfing it as a house-rule, granting only +20 or +15 or even pushing the level up, but I wanted to see if you all think that its of the correct power level for a 3rd level spell.

Thoughts?

[Farmer42]

Not really, remember that negative modifiers still apply to the check. Even with glibness, you can't just enter a room and claim to be the king. Anything that would be really abusive, such as the King, or getting someone to do something for you that might very well end in their death is still at a -20 to the check, so with Glibness on it's only a +10, and that's without the GM ruling the dificulties as being higher.

[Frosty]

Well, that's why, as the Beguiler, you would carefully craft a Disguise and also use Disguise Self to make yourself LOOK like the King first. THEN you go into the room and say you're the King. There, no more penalties.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Let's say you want to convince the King he is a slice of toast. Let's further assume you are 10th level and he has Sense Motive as a class skill and is 12th level. That's a 30(Glib)+6(Cha)+13(Ranks)+2(Aid Another)+2(Masterwork Item) for a 53 score. He had Wis as his second-most important stat with the elite array and more than usual wealth to spend, but hasn't put undue focus on it. 16(ranks)+2(persuasive)+20(Insane)+2(Aid another)+4(Wis)+2(masterwork item). Thats only a +46. The d20s matter, you won't auto it, but a +7 greater than a King 3 levels higher than you who has tried to boost this, to render him useless, is still pretty good.

[Farmer42]

Still pretty good, but not insane good. It's not like the Orb of Doom or Batman.

[UserClone]

It's still a pretty sexy spell for a Malconvoker.

[Cuddly]

Glibness is one of those spells I avoid. It's way too broken. I would also hate the GM using it on my character.

[Douglas]

Let's say you want to convince the King he is a slice of toast.

A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe.

The King has incontrovertible evidence that he is not, in fact, a slice of toast. No matter what your bluff check is, he's not going to believe it. So, he reacts - for 1 round or less - as you wish, probably staring dumbfounded at this clearly insane person in front of him. After that 1 round expires, there's a good chance he'll call for his guards to bundle you off to an insane asylum.

[Chronos]

Yeah, but convincing the King he's a slice of toast is about the most innocuous thing you could do with the spell. What if, instead, you convince the king that there's an overwhelming army massing a hundred miles to the east, and he needs to send his entire military there to oppose them? Or if you convince him that the Royal Treasury is insecure, and it would be much safer under your custodianship? Those are actually more plausible than the toast thing (and so have smaller circumstance penalties), but at the same time produce much greater benefits than the King simply doing nothing.

[DementedFellow]

If I make a wondrous item of glibness, like another poster who said Tongue Ring of Glibness, would it still give a +30 to Bluff?

[Frosty]

If I make a wondrous item of glibness, like another poster who said Tongue Ring of Glibness, would it still give a +30 to Bluff?

Yes. It'd also be epic. In order to craft an item that gives a skill +X bonus, the crafter must have at least X ranks in the skill.

[Dark Dork]

Well, for the kind of campaign I'm doing, involving many charisma-based skill checks, it's just too unsubtle and cheaty. It takes the thrill out of tense situations involving lies and disguises. I'm afraid LR_33's beguiler is gonna get a nasty shock next saturday

[Chronos]

Yes. It'd also be epic. In order to craft an item that gives a skill +X bonus, the crafter must have at least X ranks in the skill.

While many +skill items have such a prerequisite, not all do. See, for example, Boots of Elvenkind, which do not require any ranks in Move Silently. Further, the rules for epic magic items say that any item which gives a bonus greater than +30 to a skill is epic, implying that it's possible for a nonepic item to grant a bonus up to +30 (even though none such are included in the standard magic item lists).

[UglyPanda]

Yeah, Chronos is right. Also, it's a +31 skill item that's epic. +30 and lower is still within PC grasp.

Don't forget the silent moves and slick armor properties. Neither of those require the creator to have any ranks in anything.

*Edit* Had to do something before I could finish my thought. Glibness is a very fun spell, but you shouldn't use it for everything because of the same reasons you shouldn't use Diplomacy for everything, it pisses off the DM and leaves the other players without plot hooks. Also, the user should probably use Still Spell on their Glibness, otherwise it can be identified because of the somatic components and they end up not listening to you at all because they know you've used magic to help you lie.

[Aust Xiloscient]

A plus 30 to bluff hardly makes you invincible. And you can reproduce the same effect with suggestion, which a wizard would get on fifth level. Also, what is the point in having a spell that gives you a plus 10 or lower bonus? Personally I love glibness, as it works like a buff spell version of suggestion.

[Cuddly]

Bluff doesn't require a save, and most NPCs won't universally have their sense motives buffed up anywhere near to what glibness does for you. Suggestion is also mind affecting. You can bluff a lich; but you cant suggest anything to him.

[DementedFellow]

So in such instances where no amount of ranks are needed, what is the limit as far as the boost?

[Mushroom Ninja]

The coolest Bard spell. Ever.

[Farmer42]

If you're running a game where Glibness might be game breaking, then you should already have taken precautions against it. If the social skills are going to be a focus of the game, sense motive shouldn't be nearly as common in NPCs as it is elswise, and there should always be a few 3rd level clerics around leaders, to cast Zone of Truth, just in case.

[Cuddly]

The caster of zone of truth needs to be at least the same level as the bard who cast glibness.

There is also no equivalent spell that boosts sense motive. In order for an NPC to regularly make the sense motive check vs. a bard with max ranks in bluff, good charisma, and glibness, the NPC needs to be ten or fifteen levels higher, at least. Unless you arbitrarily apply lots of circumstance penalties to the check.

[Chronos]

So in such instances where no amount of ranks are needed, what is the limit as far as the boost?

For a non-epic character, the absolute limit is 30. For an epic character, there is no absolute limit.

That said, for any specific item listed in the book, the limit is whatever the prerequisites line says it is. For custom magic items, the limit is whatever the DM says it is. So if, for instance, you want to make a Ring of Jumping +10, you need 10 ranks in Jump, because that's what the book says. If you want a Ring of Spellcraft +10, then the DM decides what the prerequisites are, and may or may not decide to make 10 ranks of Spellcraft a requirement. Or, for that matter, may decide that the item is impossible regardless of ranks.

[DementedFellow]

So with enough starting gold, and DM coercion, a level 5 artificer could make a tongue ring of glibness for +30? Amazing.

[senrath]

If you're running a game where Glibness might be game breaking, then you should already have taken precautions against it. If the social skills are going to be a focus of the game, sense motive shouldn't be nearly as common in NPCs as it is elswise, and there should always be a few 3rd level clerics around leaders, to cast Zone of Truth, just in case.

Just remember that you can still speak half truths while in a Zone of Truth.

[Chronos]

With enough DM coercion, a 1st-level commoner can get several dozen artifacts. Anything can happen with enough DM coercion.

[SoD]

For a cheaper item of Glibness, instead of a constant thing, if you make a ring that you can use to cast glibness from 3/day: I forget how much I worked out the cost to be, but I know it didn't eat too much into my wealth for a 9th level character.

[Frosty]

3/day command-word activcated slotted item of Glivbness costs 16200 gold. Not chump change, but good for a total of 150 minute of bluffing per day.

[SadisticFishing]

Yeah, Glibness is silly. You automatically can lie to ANYONE, if it's mildly believable. That's ridiculous. Just tell them they owe you money :P

[Shadow28]

To be fair, at this point DnD is so totally broken that something like glibness is not going to ruin a campaign. I've only been playing for about a year and already I've seen a second level rouge with plus 30 diplomacy, an eighth level ranger with plus 42 to hide, a seventh level Knight with an AC of 41, a sixth level wizard with unlimited castings of 3d6 fireballs and casts fire spells in general at max caster level and let's not forget the F$#%@ng warlock (I don't care what you say, the rules specifically say you can't take ten on Use Magic Device under any circumstance). My point with that rant is that in the campaigns run amongst my group of friends, an extraordinary ability to lie only means an increased likely hood that your character will die a horrible HORRIBLE death later.

[monty]

(I don't care what you say, the rules specifically say you can't take ten on Use Magic Device under any circumstance)

Specific ability trumps general rule. I'm not saying it isn't broken; the Warlock is very breakable. I'm just saying it's legal by RAW.

[holywhippet]

If you're running a game where Glibness might be game breaking, then you should already have taken precautions against it. If the social skills are going to be a focus of the game, sense motive shouldn't be nearly as common in NPCs as it is elswise, and there should always be a few 3rd level clerics around leaders, to cast Zone of Truth, just in case.

I'd suggest discern lies over zone of truth. It doesn't let the person being monitored know that the spell is in effect.