How does Undetectable alignment work?

[Frosty]

Situation: There are 2 Brachinas (who have polymorphed themselves into identical human female twins) working their way to corrupt a church. to that end, they have both wed a high-ranking Paladin within the church (polygamy is allowed within that church) in order to slowly but surely getting him to committ more and more questionable acts. Now, in order to avoid suspicion, they cast Undetectable Alignment on themselves every day.

So the question is: When someone Detects Evil on the Brachina, will there be anything special like a "void" reading indicating that the detection had failed due to lack of reading, or will the Detect Evil just show "negative for evil" as normal? In other words, how effective is Undetectable Alignment at fooling alignment detection spells? Is there anything to worry about for the Brachinas when they cast Ubdetectable Alignment, or are they completely safe as far as Detect spells are concerned?

On the mundane side, the Paladin has a low Sense Motive, so they can Bluff and/or keep him distracted all day.

[senrath]

Completely safe. Detect Evil would register as "not evil." If all of the Detect alignment spells were cast on them, people would get the impression that they were True Neutral.

[Frosty]

So someone who is already True Neutral gains no benefit from Undetectable Alignment?

[Hal]

Detect Good/Evil/Law/Chaos only shows you auras of that type. Thus, someone with undetectable alignment would appear just like someone of an opposing alignment for one of those other spells: They just wouldn't register.

Now, if there was a Detect Alignment spell, then they'd be in trouble. Alternatively, a clever person would try Detect Good on them as well, but that would only be in case of suspicion.

[senrath]

So someone who is already True Neutral gains no benefit from Undetectable Alignment?

Yup. They gain nothing from Undetectable Alignment since their alignment can't be detected anyway.

[Craig1f]

You probably want to use Misdirection if your goal is to pose as a Lawful good creature.

[Frosty]

Well the Pleasure Devils could claim that not everyone in the Church is Good. Because...Good is rare. Good is very self-less and for the welfare of others. Most villagers are neutral.

[kc0bbq]

You don't need divination to pick up on alignment, though. They are safe from divinations that detect alignment, as per the spell, but that's it. Common sense can still see through it, and then they have more to worry about. They have more to worry about with all the schools of magic on them and their own behavior.

[Chronos]

Common sense can still see through it, and then they have more to worry about.

That's where the paladin's low Sense Motive comes in. And presumably, the paladin is the only one who knows that the twins are connected to the questionable acts. Evil creatures aren't exactly required to kick puppies in public: Some, presumably including pleasure devils, prefer to be more subtle about it.

[Frosty]

You don't need divination to pick up on alignment, though. They are safe from divinations that detect alignment, as per the spell, but that's it. Common sense can still see through it, and then they have more to worry about. They have more to worry about with all the schools of magic on them and their own behavior.

Super Bluff modifiers: check
Good Diplomacy bonuses: check
Low Sense Motive on Paladin: check
Extremely "distractive" qualities when needed: double check

[SadisticFishing]

So someone who is already True Neutral gains no benefit from Undetectable Alignment?

Yes. No benefit.

Basically, alignments just aren't read.

[Kurald Galain]

Now, if there was a Detect Alignment spell, then they'd be in trouble. Alternatively, a clever person would try Detect Good on them as well, but that would only be in case of suspicion.

There was a Detect Alignment spell, back in 2E; for reasons unknown to me, it hasn't made the migration. In fact the main reason "undetectable alignment" existed in the first place was that it was the obvious reverse of that spell; certain spells such as this one could be cast "backwards" for the opposite effect.

[Kurald Galain]

Now, if there was a Detect Alignment spell, then they'd be in trouble. Alternatively, a clever person would try Detect Good on them as well, but that would only be in case of suspicion.

There was a Detect Alignment spell, back in 2E; for reasons unknown to me, it hasn't made the migration. In fact the main reason "undetectable alignment" existed in the first place was that it was the obvious reverse of that spell; certain spells such as this one could be cast "backwards" for the opposite effect.

[Khanderas]

Super Bluff modifiers: check
Good Diplomacy bonuses: check
Low Sense Motive on Paladin: check
Extremely "distractive" qualities when needed: double check

I like the "double check". Innuendo ! Intentional or not

As for the original question.
(Paladin) I cast Detect Evil.
(DM) They are not evil.
Results the same if they are Good, Neutral, or protected.

[Avor]

What kind of Palidin doens't max out his sense motive?

Every Cleric and Palidin I've seen max it out, just so things like this don't happen. Most also max out diplomacy also.

Hell, even my half-orc samurai did!

Anyways, lay a trap for the skanky devils. Set up an anti magic field in the garden. While they are walking, whispering sweet lies into his ear, BAM, the polymorph is suddeny gone, and they appear as what they are. No detect evil needed then!

[Nebo_]

What kind of Palidin doens't max out his sense motive?

One who doesn't have many skill points. Like, all of them.

Every Cleric and Palidin I've seen max it out, just so things like this don't happen. Most also max out diplomacy also.

Clerics don't have Sense motive as a class skill, that's a terrible waste of skill points.

Anyways, lay a trap for the skanky devils. Set up an anti magic field in the garden. While they are walking, whispering sweet lies into his ear, BAM, the polymorph is suddeny gone, and they appear as what they are. No detect evil needed then!

You completely missed the point. And the rules, apparently. First, how would the paladin know to set up the AMF? Second, AMF is an emanation, centered on a caster, so you can't just have one sitting there. Lastly, Paladins can't cast AMF.

[Tokiko Mima]

You know, this situation is why some paladins learn to Smite first and ask questions later. Because detection spells can be fooled, Smite Evil never can.

[Dannoth]

Detecting alignment - The Guide

1st important note is that most detects read: Detect (Good/Evil). It does not tell you exactly what someones alignment is ... it simply states it is or is not >Whatever alignment you tried to detect<

ex:

Detect Evil - If the Creature is Evil it will *ping evil*. If it is Neutral or good it will *ping not evil*

Undetectable Alignment means that no matter what it will always *ping not (Fill in detection type used here)*

Keep in mind ... that the paladin will eventually lose Paladin status if he does something truly evil ... even if he was too dumb to notice.

[Craig1f]

Detecting alignment - The Guide

1st important note is that most detects read: Detect (Good/Evil). It does not tell you exactly what someones alignment is ... it simply states it is or is not >Whatever alignment you tried to detect<

While it's true for an important person to understand that, within the context of the game, it ends up being exactly the same as being True Neutral, since there is no "detect neutral" spell.

Keep in mind ... that the paladin will eventually lose Paladin status if he does something truly evil ... even if he was too dumb to notice.

Not necessarily true. That depends on the DM. Most DMs will make an exception if the Paladin is tricked. Some DMs will excuse plain ignorance. Some DMs will give IC warnings to the Paladin when they start to consider performing an evil act, which lets them know that they're on thin ice.

But really, it's subjective. It depends on the DM.

[Frosty]

Isn't there an item that can tell a Paladin whether it's a Good Idea to perform an act or not?

And yeah, Paladins have 2 + int per level. I'd wager most paladins only have 3 points to spend. Let's see...Ride...diplomacy maybe...and umm...knowledge religion? So many skills...so little points.

You know, this situation is why some paladins learn to Smite first and ask questions later. Because detection spells can be fooled, Smite Evil never can.

Do your paladins get in the habit of smiting everyone they meet? I mean, do you expect this paladin to just smite the two (exquisitely beautiful) identical twins that have pledged to serve him in marriage (and vice versa) when they don't ping evil?

I like the "double check". Innuendo ! Intentional or not

Of the innuendo was very intentional, although I just relaized right now that there's more levels of innuendo than I intended when I first wrote it. So many ways to read that sentence...

[Kurald Galain]

Do your paladins get in the habit of smiting everyone they meet?

No, but I once played a cleric that was in the habit of turning random people to verify whether they were undead. While sort of strange, this worked out because the campaign had undead masquerading as living people, and unlike smiting, turn undead doesn't do anything to living people.

[Xefas]

I mean, do you expect this paladin to just smite the two (exquisitely beautiful) identical twins that have pledged to serve him in marriage (and vice versa) when they don't ping evil?

He could use Smite Evil with a bum-pinching or something. If they're good, they wouldn't even notice (y'know, aside from the pinching part). If they're just regular evil commoners, they'd be dead.

But, if they happen to be high level evil monsters polymorphed into something! Oh boy!

<related anecdote>

Spoiler

Show

At one point during my last campaign, the PCs had just visited a hot spring. As they were getting dressed, the rogue Sneak Attacked the wizard with a wet, rolled up towel. The sting of the towel didn't do any damage, but he still took 5d6+9 nonlethal sneak attack damage, sending him into unconsciousness.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Xefas, that wizard should have been. SA cannot be made subdual, except iwth a few choice weapons.

See, this is why casters keep you well looted and fed.

Now, as for why you would...If the paladin is battleworn and high level, it'd be standard procedure. Get a merciful weapon, smite with that. Letting yourself be smote is a sign of trust, so why not?

Really, it's a shame people mostly play high level characters like low levelers. A high level character should, by complete IC experience, do a wide variety of tests and checks on regular basis.

[Tokiko Mima]

Do your paladins get in the habit of smiting everyone they meet? I mean, do you expect this paladin to just smite the two (exquisitely beautiful) identical twins that have pledged to serve him in marriage (and vice versa) when they don't ping evil?

A wise old saying: "If a thing seems too good to be true, it probably is."

[Azerian Kelimon]

Corollary: "Unless you're in the heroic islands in Elysium. If you are, start partying, 'cause you finally made it."

[Craig1f]

Do your paladins get in the habit of smiting everyone they meet? I mean, do you expect this paladin to just smite the two (exquisitely beautiful) identical twins that have pledged to serve him in marriage (and vice versa) when they don't ping evil?

Maybe he's just really rough in bed. I would argue it's not uncommon to cause a little nonlethal damage in the sack.

[Frosty]

A wise old saying: "If a thing seems too good to be true, it probably is."

Again, he was waaaay too distracted :p It was kinda his fault for dumping both Sense Motive and Wisdom both (traded spells for Bonus Feats prolly).

Azerian, this particular paladin is just very...how shall I put this generously...idealistic and naive. He truly wants to see the good in everyone, and his negative Sense Motive modifiers don't help. the church never put him in situations where there are moral gray areas really, knowing that those aren't his strong suit, so he kind of grew up sheltered and without the healthy dose of suspicions that other level 11 characters might have. He gained levels by killing lots things that were *clearly* evil.

Unfortuntely for the Church, the Church never expected devils to attack a strategically un-important location, nor did the Church know about Pleasure Devils (they are relatively new in this setting).

But, if they happen to be high level evil monsters polymorphed into something! Oh boy!

Query: ICly, does a Paladin KNOW if a smite fails or succeeds?

[Craig1f]

Query: ICly, does a Paladin KNOW if a smite fails or succeeds?

I believe a Paladin can tell if a smite fails or succeeds, because they can see that extra damage, other than the normal damage of the weapon or attack they're using, is dealt. I'd argue that the paladin would need to see the wounding occur. So, for example, if they smite evil in the dark, or against an invisible target, they might not know.

That's my interpretation. But again, I think this is a Rule-zero thing. I don't believe the RAW covers it.

[Chronos]

Xefas, that wizard should have been. SA cannot be made subdual, except iwth a few choice weapons.

Specifically, those weapons which normally do subdual damage with no penalty. Like, say, a rolled-up towel.

Query: ICly, does a Paladin KNOW if a smite fails or succeeds?

Not directly, but there are usually pretty good indications, like whether the target suddenly goes from full health to significantly injured.

Maybe he's just really rough in bed. I would argue it's not uncommon to cause a little nonlethal damage in the sack.

The proper term is "bumping uglies".

[Renegade Paladin]

One who doesn't have many skill points. Like, all of them.

Hey. Was that a "paladins are dumb" crack?