Making a old favorite and need help!!

[DUSUCK]

So I am making a level 7 fighter level 4 Dwarfen defender and my freind just made a human fighter level 11 who had 48 AC....I have done all I could but I can't seem to get my AC that high my armor,shields feats are as follows:

Armor:
Dwarfen mountain plate +5 total AC 15
+5 steel tower sheild total AC 9

Feats:
Toughness
Endurance
Dodge
Tower shield proficiency
Heavy armor specialization+1
Greater armor specialization+1
Heavy shield specialization+1

Then as being a DD I get a +2 so my total comes out to a 39.
So my question is I have 15000g left and I need to get my AC higher how!?!?!


Thanks for any replays in advance!

[Meat Shield]

Rings of protection, amulet of natural armor, isn't there a feat that gives you an improvement on the dodge feat?

[Keld Denar]

First of all.....fighter is an even leveled class after level 1. If you are going to take 7, take 1 more for 8 or take 1 less and take another class that actually has...you know....class features. Barbarian is an excellent dip, or maybe a PrC like EWM (with Dwarven Waraxe) or Pious Templar (for Mettle).

Secondly, you are investing WAY too much in armor. All those feats add only a marginal bonus to armor, and you are better off spending them on things that actually give you a decent bonus (Combat Expertese) or on feats that allow you to kill stuff faster, like Power Attack, since dead foes make 0 attacks per round, with a 0% chance of hitting.

Third, do you not have a cleric or other divine caster in your party? Getting Magic Vestaments cast on your armor and shield is a much cheaper investment than upgrading both to +5. Buy your cleric a Pearl of Power 4 or two and get that cast every day. Any cleric worth the name should be able to hit CL 16 by your ECL, and CL20 soon. Instead, invest the money in things that add to your survivability in other ways. +6 Con amulet is great, since it adds 3 hp/level. There is a +1 AC Iwin Stone in the DMG for 5k, and you can get items like a Ring of Protection to supply a deflection bonus. Buffs like Recitation also aide your AC, which is good.

Fourth, DD is a bad class. The whole concept of not moving is only really good for blocking doorways in dungeons. In any other setting, your foes are just going to walk around you briskly, kill your friends, then grapple you and stab your pink insides through your armor.

Do you have Tome of Battle: Bo9S available? Take a look at the Crusader class. Its a much better tank than a DD could ever DREAM of being.

[Wizard_Tom]

Amulet of Natural Armor and Ring of Protection.

EDIT:
I also have to second the Crusader from Tome of Battle. There is even a dwarven specific Prestige class to go with it, Deepstone Sentinel.

[Iku Rex]

Books available?
Ability scores?
Do you have standard gold for level 11?
Are you dead set on dwarven defender?

[DUSUCK]

Ok but I only got 15000g left so I don't know if I can afford the amulet and not sure hw much the ring costs oh and luss I am a newbie I have no clue what you just said

[Keld Denar]

Ok, think of it this way....

You are a monster (RAWR!) and you are hungry (DOUBLE RAWR!). In front of you is a dwarf in a tin can. He's just standing there. You forgot your can opener at home, so move around him, out of reach of his weapon, and find something softer and tastier to munch on. Like a rogue. Or a low level wizard. Mmmmm, munch munch munch. Now you've eaten all his friends, but the dwarf is still standing there, just like you left him. Since his friends are all now comfortably on a journy through your digestive tract, you have a bit more time on your hands to deal with this dwarf. Maybe one of your friends comes to help you. One of you holds down the dwarf (grappling is easy vs heavily armored foes) while the other takes advantage of your helpless state to commense with the eat of your person.

Yea, kind of like that.

Being a "tank" is hard in D&D, since there are no "aggro" mechanics like in MMOs. The monsters aren't going to attack you because your party role is tank, or because you have the highest AC. Quite the contary. If you are little threat, but tough to kill, you'll be avoided. Dwarven Defender as a class is very good at getting you avoided, while your friends get shredded. If you do your stance, because it is something you only get a couple times a day, you'll not want to really leave it, but if you don't, you won't be able to contribute in a mobile fight.

Therefore, as a fighter, you need to be a threat. You need to hit stuff, and hard, or have a mechanic like Knight's Challenge (PHBII) or the Goad feat (???) that forces foes to attack you. You need to keep things that limit your mobility too much to a minimum. Dwarven Defenders are notoriously good at limiting their mobility.

Does any of this make sense? Do you have access to read Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords? If you do, take a look at it. Take a look in particular to the Crusader class. They are a valid threat, can take damage better than a DD, and have abilities that prevent people from avoiding them. All in all, a great tanking class. Dwarven Crusaders are a lot of fun to play, trust me, I've played one!

[Telonius]

This does sound like it's a theoretical exercise rather than an actual for-play build - you're trying to out-AC the human fighter, right?

If that's the case, I'd suggest you change out those Dwarven Defender levels for more Fighter levels. The DD doesn't give you any greater bonuses to your AC after first level. The bonuses don't go up after level 1, just the number of times per day you can use the defensive stance. Whereas with a straight-up Fighter, you can continue to take the extra Fighter Feats that give you better AC. So take Fighter 10/DD1 to give yourself two more options.

I'm assuming those "Specialization" feats should read "Optimization." Armor Specialization requires +12 BAB, and grants DR rather than AC. I'd put one of them in Phalanx Fighting, for an extra +1. Then something else for another bonus.

Okay, so you have the feats. Your asset allocation isn't all that great. Bump one those armor bonuses down to +4, then get yourself a +1 Defending weapon. You'll end up with the same AC, but have an extra 1,000 gp. Bump the other down to a +4, and you'll have 9,000 gp to spend on other bonus-giving items, that will give more than a +1 bonus.

[DUSUCK]

ok so I have decided to not go all out for teh AC but I still want it high there fore these are my new requierments

Dwarf
Preferably a DD but if they suck that bad then I can compromise
Must where dwarven mountain plate (Hence i'm not gonna be fast)

Now, my stats are as follows
Str:18
Dex:14
Con:22
INT:16
WIS:16
CHA:10

The books I have access to are:
PH1,
PH2,
DMG,
MM,
MM4,
Complete Warrior,
Complete Champion,
Complete Mage,
Races of stone,
Planer handbook,
Races of the wild,
Races of destiny.

Now as I have said I really do want to be a DD but I supose if they are that bad then I won't.....Oh and also how much does it cost to make a set of mountain plate mithril??

EDIT: the party I am in consists of a wizard a cleric a ninja and a dragon shaman

[monty]

I wonder if you can get dragonhide mountain plate or something like that...Just play a druid. You'll be a better tank than any fighter, and FAR better than a DD.

[Keld Denar]

If you want a tanky warrior, try this one that I made a bit ago...

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.p...32&postcount=1

Its a build I made about a month ago. Very dwarfy, very beastly. Uses only the books you have access too. Does good damage so enemies pay attention to you. Has reasonable AC with a little help from the party. Best part is that its effective at almost all levels. At low levels, you rule by virtue of taking advantage of using a 2handed weapon with a high strength. By mid levels, you start power attacking, and your damage goes up significantly. By late levels, with enough buffing, you are attacking a crazy number of times per round with your decent damage. Its effective, without boarding too much on obscene. Also makes up for a few of the shortcomings of this type of character as well.

If you have any questions about it, just ask, but almost all of the material there is in Complete Warrior, Complete Champion, PHBII, and Races of Stone.

The main thing to remember is this. While you are using a double weapon, you are not using it AS a double weapon. You are using it as 2 seperate two handed weapons that you just happen to be holding in both hands at any given time. This gives you all of the benefits of a 2handed weapon, but still lets you take advantage of the Flurry of Strikes special ability of the Exotic Weapon Master, which requires you to use a double weapon (or spiked chain).


As far as Mithril Mountain Plate, its heavy armor, so it would be the same as the cost to add mithril to normal full plate. Take a look at www.d20srd.com and search for special materials. The tables with the cost of mithril and Adamantine are right there, although if you are already going mountian plate, it might be worth it to make it Adamantine instead, for the DR 3/Adamantine.

[DUSUCK]

I wonder if you can get dragonhide mountain plate or something like that...Just play a druid. You'll be a better tank than any fighter, and FAR better than a DD.

Well A I hate druids with a fiery passion never....B We do have one but he didn't show so were not sure if he is playing anymore

[DUSUCK]

If you want a tanky warrior, try this one that I made a bit ago...

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.p...32&postcount=1

Its a build I made about a month ago. Very dwarfy, very beastly. Uses only the books you have access too. Does good damage so enemies pay attention to you. Has reasonable AC with a little help from the party. Best part is that its effective at almost all levels. At low levels, you rule by virtue of taking advantage of using a 2handed weapon with a high strength. By mid levels, you start power attacking, and your damage goes up significantly. By late levels, with enough buffing, you are attacking a crazy number of times per round with your decent damage. Its effective, without boarding too much on obscene. Also makes up for a few of the shortcomings of this type of character as well.

If you have any questions about it, just ask, but almost all of the material there is in Complete Warrior, Complete Champion, PHBII, and Races of Stone.

The main thing to remember is this. While you are using a double weapon, you are not using it AS a double weapon. You are using it as 2 seperate two handed weapons that you just happen to be holding in both hands at any given time. This gives you all of the benefits of a 2handed weapon, but still lets you take advantage of the Flurry of Strikes special ability of the Exotic Weapon Master, which requires you to use a double weapon (or spiked chain).


As far as Mithril Mountain Plate, its heavy armor, so it would be the same as the cost to add mithril to normal full plate. Take a look at www.srd.com and search for special materials. The tables with the cost of mithril and Adamantine are right there, although if you are already going mountian plate, it might be worth it to make it Adamantine instead, for the DR 3/Adamantine.

i'm not exactly sure what order I am suposed to take levels in and in what order

[Keld Denar]

Eh, the format is not that bad...In this order, take

1 level Ranger then
2 levels Fighter then
2 levels Barbarian then
2 levels Deepwarden (Races of Stone)
3 levels of Pious Templar (Complete Warrior)
1 level Exotic Weapons Master (Complete Warrior)
1 more level of Pious Templar
5 levels of Occult Slayer
3 more levels of Pious Templar

that give you 20 levels

Feats/level are
1 Endurance and Track
2 Power Attack
3 Weapon Focus:Urgosh and Hold the Line (Complete Warrior)
6 True Believer (Complete Warrior)
9 Improved Inititive
10 Weapon Specialization
12 Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer) and Melee Weapon Mastery (PHBII)
15 Slashing Fury (Complete Warrior)
18 Battle Blessing (Complete Champion)

The rest of the stuff there is just the order you need to grab certain skills to qualify for the different PrCs and the special abilities (Stonewarden, Mettle) that you gain with the different class levels. Not too bad.

[Telonius]

That's a fairly standard way of displaying a build. I'll decode it for you.

At first level, take a level in Ranger. Your feats will be Track and Endurance. Take the skill points as directed.

At second level, take a level in Fighter. Select Power Attack as your feat.

At third level, take another level in Fighter (bringing you to Fighter 2). Take Hold the Line and Weapon focus as your feats.

And so on.

[DUSUCK]

Sweet thanks a ton Luss hopefully i won't die as quick this time lol only 2 things
1:can I change the stats
2:What do i spend my GP on?

[Mr. Friendly]

That's a fairly standard way of displaying a build. I'll decode it for you.

At first level, take a level in Ranger. Your feats will be Track and Endurance. Take the skill points as directed.

At second level, take a level in Fighter. Select Power Attack as your feat.

At third level, take another level in Fighter (bringing you to Fighter 2). Take Hold the Line and Weapon focus as your feats.

And so on.

Or there are tables!

{table]Level|Class|Feats
1|Ranger1|Endurance, Track(b)
2|Fighter1|Power Attack(b)
3|Fighter2|Weapon Focus:Urgosh, Hold the Line(b)
4|Barbarian1|-
5|Barbarian2|-
6|Deepwarden1|True Believer
7|Deepwarden2|-
8|Pious Templar1|-
9|Pious Templar2|Improved Inititive
10|Pious Templar3|Weapon Specialization(b)
11|Exotic Weapon Master1|-
12|Pious Templar4|Leap Attack, Melee Weapon Mastery(b)
13|Occult Slayer1|-
14|Occult Slayer2|-
15|Occult Slayer3|Slashing Fury
16|Occult Slayer4|-
17|Occult Slayer5|-
18|Pious Templar5|Battle Blessing
19|Pious Templar6|-
20|Pious Templar7|-[/table]

[Keld Denar]

The first few things you want to spend money on are weapons, str, and con gear. These are your milk, bread, and eggs of a melee character, or something you should get every time you go to the supermarket. Start with your Urgosh by getting an Adamantine one. This will net you +1 hit/dmg. Then enchant 1 or both heads with +1. Then get a +2 str item, and a +2 con item. These will help you with damage and survival respectively. Next, probably upgrade your armor, and get an animated shield (9k), and Vest of Resistance +1-3. Boots of Speed would be a decent pickup at about this time, and upgrading +str and +con time to +4 each. Now put something tasty on your weapon, like Collision from MIC or Holy from DMG. On your back side, something like Brutal Surge (MIC) is fun to play around with as well. Then upgrade your str/con items to +6, grab a Ring of Freedom of Movement at some point, and look for some method of flight (Wings of Flying in the DMG or Phoenix Cloak in MIC).

Thats the skeleton of gear. Inbetween that, you can grab some minor utility stuff like a Wand for healing and some other random consumables.

[DUSUCK]

Thank you luss I think I got it all now all I got to do is copy it lol!

[Keld Denar]

Since you are level 11, you'd are right at the juiciest part of the build. EWM at 11 with a BAB of 11 nets you 2 more attacks per round over the previous level. Your base attack routine at this level will be
+9/+9/+4/-1
Add on your str of 20 (+2 level bumps at 4 and 8) and a +4 str item nets you:
+16/+16/+11/+6
Add in Weapon Focus, +1 enhancement, and Haste and you get:
+19/+19/+19/+14/+9

Thats not too bad for someone of your level. You could also rage and charge for more bonus.

Damage per hit with everything will be:
1d8 +10 (str) +2 (spec) +1 (enhance)
1d8 +13 before Power Attack, so if you PA for 5 points, you'll get

+14/+14/+14/+9/+4
for 1d8 +23, a pretty respectable damage. Since you have pounce, you can charge for an extra +2 to hit and still make a full attack.

The nice thing about it is, if you are good aligned and you take the Paladin Spells option from Pious Templar (as opposed to the Blackguard spells), you can cast the spell Rhino's Rush (Spell Compendium) which doubles damage delt on a charge. Your charge attack with PA for 5 points would look like:

+16/+16/+16/+11/+6
for 2d8 +46, or about 55 damage per hit, a few times per day. This is really good. A couple Pearls of Power 1 from the DMG will allow you to refresh your PT spells and give you more daily staying power.

I'm pretty proud of this build. Its dwarfy, defensey, offensey, and all around decent. I hope you have fun playing it.

[DUSUCK]

you know luss you should be proud lookin at those numbers I am likeing this more and more!!!!!

[Keld Denar]

You should see this guy in real action. Getting a crit on a Rhino's Rush pounce lands you a single hit in the 100+ damage range, thanks to the 3x crit on that puppy. Sure, you don't crit as often, but when you do, it hurts real bad. If I knew exactly how much money you had available, I could help you pick out your gear as well.

[DUSUCK]

OK so I was looking through some books and I can't find Pious templar

[Keld Denar]

Complete Warrior, should be around page 25-30. Its early in the book, IIRC, but I'm away from books atm.

[DUSUCK]

If I knew exactly how much money you had available, I could help you pick out your gear as well.

I gots 88000g

EDIT: and I can't find the pious dude anywhere I checked the whole thing

[Keld Denar]

I gots 88000g

10,050 g +1/+1 Adamantine Urgosh
16,000 g +4 Belt of Giant Str
16,000 g +4 Amulet of Con
9,020 g +1 Animated Large Steel Shield
5,200 g +1 Mithril Breastplate
4,100 g Armbands of Might (MIC, +2 str checks, +2 dmg when you PA for 2+)
12,000 g Boots of Speed
9,000 g +3 Vest of Resistance
2,000 g 2x Pearl of Power 1

That brings you to 86370 gold....you have 1630. You could get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds which you could use via the 1 ranger level, or you could get a Wand of Lessor Vigor (CDivine) which is a more efficient means of healing, but requires you to have a druid or cleric friend to use it on you.

Hope this helps?

BTW, your AC should be 6 armor, 3 shield, 8 con, 1 haste or 28 at level 11. Granted, this isn't super huge, but better than you'd get in Mountian Plate. If you get a caster level 12 Magic Vestaments cast on your armor and shield, you'll be at AC 32 all day, which is much better.

[DUSUCK]

Ok and I just found out that pious scholar is in the complete divine

[Vael Nir]

I was looking for a way to rebuild a character of mine... randomly open this thread, and find the perfect option! pious templar it is, thank you.

[DUSUCK]

Ok well luss I seem to be at a standstill since I don't HAVE the Complete divine my DM won't let me play anything I do not have the book for so is there anything I could replace those levels with??

P.S. Veal Nir your welcome

[Keld Denar]

Man, thats kind of a bummer. Can you use the web enhancement from the WotC site?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...040418a&page=2

Print it off, its got everything but the spell progression and BAB/Saves progression. I can tell you that it has full 1/1 BAB, and also good Fort/Will saves. The spell progression is exactly that of the Assassin found in the DMG, except that it uses the Paladin spell list.

I hate to say it, but if you can't use that, the best option is probably about 4 levels of fighter, and possibly more barbarian or fighter. You need to make up the bonus feats you lose due to PT. You can also toss out the True Believer feat, since its no longer needed to qualify for PT. Battle Blessing can also be changed to something else. I'd suggest something like picking up Combat Brute and Shocktrooper from Complete Warrior.

Hope this helps...