Vow of Poverty

[Shadow28]

Sorry to start a whole new thread, but I'm short on time and don't have time to search all of the current threads. I'm in the processes of constructing an Apostle of Peace and I need to know if vow of poverty restricts a character from using tomes. Thanks alot for the help.

[Reel On, Love]

Sorry to start a whole new thread, but I'm short on time and don't have time to search all of the current threads. I'm in the processes of constructing an Apostle of Peace and I need to know if vow of poverty restricts a character from using tomes. Thanks alot for the help.

Yes, it does, unless you use the tomes *before* you take VoP.

Vow of Poverty also restricts a character from using a divine focus, which Apostle of Peace needs to spellcast.

[UglyPanda]

Complete champion has a level 0 spell which summons a holy symbol for 1 round per level.


*Edit* Also, not all divine spells require a divine focus. Only the ones with a DF in their components list require one. About half of them don't.

[Shadow28]

That doesn't make any sense, an Apostle of Peace has to have vow of poverty as a prerequisite

[Reel On, Love]

That doesn't make any sense, an Apostle of Peace has to have vow of poverty as a prerequisite

You're right, it doesn't make any sense. And yet.

[Jack_Simth]

That doesn't make any sense, an Apostle of Peace has to have vow of poverty as a prerequisite

Correct, yet those are the rules as written. The Vow of Poverty gives a specific list of things you're permitted to own and use. A Divine Focus isn't on it.

[The Sandman]

Get your holy symbol tattooed onto your body. If necessary, make the ink and needles yourself.

Actually, that would be a cool idea for a VoP type: give him some sort of Craft (tattoo) ability that lets you create tattoos with various magical abilities a la Planescape: Torment.

[Artanis]

That doesn't make any sense, an Apostle of Peace has to have vow of poverty as a prerequisite

Believe me, there's plenty of things that make even less sense in the RAW.

[Shadow28]

I know something like that exists for wizards so they don't need a spell book so it wouldn't be too hard to construct. I've been scouring some of the other forums and determined just as I have before that I hate wizards with a passion. The general consensus seems to be exactly what my friends and I have been doing for so long and just ignore what doesn't make sense. Hell, it lets you have the spell component pouch and that thing is pretty much kicks encumberance rules to the curb

[greenknight]

This is one of the (many) situations where you should talk with your DM. I expect most would allow you a basic divine focus, although some might take issue if you want a silver holy symbol. But don't worry too much about not being able to use Tomes, since you could always Gate in an Efreeti and use it's wishes to get +3 to your ability scores. Or you might be able to cut a deal with a Dragon that knows Wish and get the full +5.

[monty]

I don't see why the holy symbol has to cost anything. I played an Apostle who had his holy symbol tattooed on his chest. Looked pretty badass, too (goblin cleric of Balder FTW).

[Jack_Simth]

Gate in an Efreeti

Not if you want to maintain the benefits of Vow of Poverty, you don't. [Exalted] feats specifically require you not cast [Evil] spells... which you get when you Gate in an [Evil] creature like an Efreeti. You need Noble Dijinni. And get two of them at the same time with two castings - that way you can get up to +5.

[greenknight]

[Exalted] feats specifically require you not cast [Evil] spells... which you get when you Gate in an [Evil] creature like an Efreeti.

That's true in 3.0e, but 3.5e changes the Efreeti's type to just (Extraplaner, Fire), so even though Efreeti are still Evil, they aren't [Evil], allowing someone with a VoP to Gate them in. Good call on getting two of them at the same time.

[Chronos]

I think it comes down to interpretation...

Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type.

Is an "evil creature" a creature with the [evil] subtype, or just a creature with an evil alignment?

While we're at it on the Apostle of Peace, though... From the BoED excerpt:

As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor).

Is that an exception to the Vow of Poverty's restrictions, or just another example of the designers not thinking things through?

[Reel On, Love]

While we're at it on the Apostle of Peace, though... From the BoED excerpt:Is that an exception to the Vow of Poverty's restrictions, or just another example of the designers not thinking things through?

[Talya]

Vow of Poverty also restricts a character from using a divine focus

This is categorically untrue. A divine focus can be ANYTHING. And there are things a VOP character are allowed to use/carry/own. Even a non-masterwork simple weapon can be a divine focus. All you need to do is scratch a crude symbol of your deity on it. That doesn't make it any more than a simple weapon that you're allowed to carry.

A divine focus is not a possession. It's a quality or property of something else. You can stick it on anything you carry. Scratching a symbol of your god on an item doesn't make it something other than what it already is. If you were allowed to carry it before, you still are afterward.

Edit: As far as tomes, yes, you can read one. You just can't possess it in the process of reading it. Someone else would need to own it. Probably (depending on your DM) open it for you, turn the pages for you, etc. Just like they could pour a potion down your throat, they can also let you read their book. Hope you can find someone generous enough to do that.

A second option, as a VOP character, is to call in favors from your many donations to charity. Note that temples and such give services back to players in proportion to what they donate. VOP characters take their share of the loot, then donate it to their causes. If a temple of mystra, for example, accepted enough donations from you, you could certainly get them to convince a devout mystran wizard to cast wish for you a few times.

[Shadow28]

that's part of the description that you can accept a magic item such as a potion and drink it from a friend, but you can't borrow a something like a cloak of resistance. Once again, I hate wizards, but to quote Burlew, they'll let any hack write a source book these days. Too bad they let any hack review a source book before printing it (cough, healing belt, cough, magic item compendium, cough)

[Chronos]

(cough, healing belt, cough, magic item compendium, cough)

Was that first cough supposed to say "Belt of Battle"? Because healing belts, while being a nice bargain, aren't all that overpowered.

[leperkhaun]

For vow of poverty, having a simple wooden DF is not against it. Having an ornate expensive DF is.

As far as tome are considered, you cant use them after you take the vow, but you can before.

[Reel On, Love]

This is categorically untrue. A divine focus can be ANYTHING. And there are things a VOP character are allowed to use/carry/own. Even a non-masterwork simple weapon can be a divine focus. All you need to do is scratch a crude symbol of your deity on it. That doesn't make it any more than a simple weapon that you're allowed to carry.

"Divine Focus (DF)

A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith. "

"Holy Symbol, Silver or Wooden

A holy symbol focuses positive energy. A cleric or paladin uses it as the focus for his spells and as a tool for turning undead. Each religion has its own holy symbol. "

Given that a little wooden holy symbol costs 1 gp, I'm guessing that it's not just a crude symbol of your deity. As a cleric, you need a holy symbol, which is a specific item in the equipment entry.

Of course, you can argue that that's incomplete, because they don't mention druids (for example) at all. Strictly speaking, though, I'm pretty sure you need a "Holy Symbol" item to cast spells that require a Divine Focus; otherwise every cleric would just scratch a holy symbol on the inside of his armor, or wear a little pin, or just get a little tattoo.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Given that a little wooden holy symbol costs 1 gp, I'm guessing that it's not just a crude symbol of your deity. As a cleric, you need a holy symbol, which is a specific item in the equipment entry.

What if you have a 'savage' deity, or one who you worship in such a way? That way, only a crude symbol would do.

[Reel On, Love]

What if you have a 'savage' deity, or one who you worship in such a way? That way, only a crude symbol would do.

Why?
It might look crude, but it's still a specific symbol. And you'd still need a worth-1-gp wooden or worth-(30, was it?)-gp silver version of it, I guess.

[Illiterate Scribe]

i am thrurk, god of 'urtin. my symbol am club.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd say that the best soluion is to ignore the bit about AoPs being able to use magic items which protect them while letting them use a wooden DF. In regards to Tomes, I'm guessing that you would be okay with them if someone else eld the book for you while owning it, but I'm going with the letter of VoP rather then the intent.

[Moak]

that's part of the description that you can accept a magic item such as a potion and drink it from a friend, but you can't borrow a something like a cloak of resistance.

That's why,IMHO,you can use tomes...you don't own them,only use them..

[greenknight]

That's why,IMHO,you can use tomes...you don't own them,only use them..

The VoP Feat specifically states:

You may not use any magic item of any sort

I added the emphasis on the word "use". It goes on to say:

You may not, however, “borrow” a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand, or staff.

In order to benefit from any of the Tomes or Manuals, you'd need to read them for 48 hours, which would certainly violate that condition.

On the other hand, as I mentioned earlier it would be possible for a VoP character to benefit from a Wish spell to increase an ability score, and Gating in one or more creatures for that purpose would probably be a better option than using those books anyway.

[Shadow28]

Was that first cough supposed to say "Belt of Battle"? Because healing belts, while being a nice bargain, aren't all that overpowered.

Belt of Battle is at least 12,000 gp, the healing belt is only 750. Broken

[NEO|Phyte]

Of course, you can argue that that's incomplete, because they don't mention druids (for example) at all.

Nature-based casters use the - cost Holly and mistletoe for their divine focus IIRC. I'm pretty sure this is spelled out in the PHB item description, which is not present in the SRD. I remember reading it SOMEWHERE, anyway.

[Chronos]

Belt of Battle is at least 12,000 gp, the healing belt is only 750. Broken

And an ordinary leather belt for keeping your pants from falling down is a couple of copper. Just because it's cheap, doesn't mean it's broken.

[Reel On, Love]

Belt of Battle is at least 12,000 gp, the healing belt is only 750. Broken

How is it broken? It provides low-level characters much-needed healing so they can actually have multiple encounters a day. Look, a Healing Belt provides, on average, 7 HP. that's 21 HP/day.

A Wand of Lesser Vigor provides 11 HP/charge. So a wand of lesser vigor will keep you going for 25 days of combat. At that point, at 4 encounters/day, you've gained a bunch of levels, and can afford another wand almost casually. Saving the players 750 gp every few levels isn't "broken" in the least.