Claws, Bites and Tails, Oh-My

[Samakain]

Recently got all excited about doing up a shifter relying on natural weapons as his primary offense, until i realized that you didn't get additional attacks with your natural weapons for a high BAB, now that my ignorance has been dispelled i'm started looking for ways to circumvent this

Two options i've found

One, in Dragon 344, was the Speed Claw Enchancer, +1 natural weapon damage and it counted them as martial weapons.

second was the rapid strike feats in draconomicon. But this has some race pre-reqs that deny it to the majority of PC Races, especially shifters.

Started talking about this is my group, house-ruling could be brought to bear but in the end its a question of balance, so i put it to the brains trust of the playground, would giving PC races with natural attacks multiple attacks due to high BAB become unbalanced? especially with a shifter barbarian/warblade/weretouched master/bloodclaw master with the right feats doing 3d6 damage with his one handed claw attack? and is there any non-house ruling that allows this?

Yours in Curiousity
:D

[Chronos]

Not quite in answer to your question, but a few things I'll point out:

First, if a creature can combine manufactured weapons and natural weapons in an attack routine (I imagine that shifters fall into this category), then you can make all of your iterative attacks with your weapon, and one attack each (at BAB-5; take Improved Multiattack to decrease the penalty to -2) with each of your natural weapons. This also works with unarmed strikes, if you have IUS.

Second, the penalty for natural weapons never gets any worse, no matter how many of them you have, and you can get a lot of natural weapons. In addition to whatever you get to start with, a two-level dip in Totemist (Magic of Incarnum) to bind the Girallon Arms soulmeld to your totem chakra will give you two extra arms, with claws on the end of each your arms (your natural ones and the ones from the meld). It's possible to get other natural weapons from class levels and the like, but I think the Totemist dip is the most bang for the buck.

Third, since you're going Bloodclaw Master anyway, the mongoose maneuvers will work just as well with natural weapons as with manufactured ones to give you extra claw attacks (claws are even listed as a favored weapon for Tiger Claw).

[Samakain]

Cheers for the information about Magic of the Incarnum, the DM for the campaign i'm thinking of running this character in asked very nicely if someone would consider playing a shifter for plot purposes, and so far we have three, a druid and a ranger, and i felt like something that was along the lines of the more bestial side of there nature. And i just couldn't get used to the idea of having an 11 BAB with only 2 attacks XD. Regardless i'm going to run with it anyway, i'll look into those options you mentioned! thanks.

[Project_Mayhem]

Have you looked at the racial level substitutions for Shifter Druids and Rangers? Most are very good.

[Chronicled]

And i just couldn't get used to the idea of having an 11 BAB with only 2 attacks XD.

An easy way to get those manufactured weapons without using up your hands or spending a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike (although that'd be my route) is to use spiked armor. You'd have three spiked armor attacks and two claw attacks when full attacking--although if I was doing this, I'd ask my DM if I could reflavor them as boot blades or some such (which are available, along with elbow/wrist/knee blades, in Complete Scoundrel, but they're a hidden/backup weapon and you take a penalty when using them).

[Samakain]

I like the idea of the additional body blade attacks, definitely. Raises another question, if you take unarmed strike with a shifter with razorclaw, if you take Imp Unarmed Strike, while shifting do you use your fists or claws?

And any idea where i would find the racial sub levels for the shifter ranger and druid?

[Toliudar]

I believe you can find it at www.crystalkeep.com

[Chronicled]

Raises another question, if you take unarmed strike with a shifter with razorclaw, if you take Imp Unarmed Strike, while shifting do you use your fists or claws?

Improved Unarmed Strike does not require that you use your fists for unarmed strikes.

[Samakain]

Thanks again for the help guys :) and the resource

[MorkaisChosen]

Iterative attacks aren't as useful as you might think. Two attacks with no penalties are better than +11/+6/+1, and with that build, you can use Dancing Mongoose for four attacks or Raging for six. I wouldn't worry- but if you are worrying, you can take that feat that gives an extra Shifter trait and get the bitey one.

[Parvum]

Iterative attacks aren't as useful as you might think. Two attacks with no penalties are better than +11/+6/+1.

-2 penalty, -5 without multiattack. And that's +11/+6/+1 and +9 for a claw, if one claw out of two is holding something to swing with.

As an enthusiast of the more... non-standard races, the natural attack thing has always bugged me. What is the 'speed claw enhancer' mentioned in the first post? I'd love to be able to get all multiple attacks in with a claw/tentacle/bite for once, rather than using a weapon mostly so I don't feel I'm missing out on something.

[Chronos]

It's not a question of iterative attacks or natural attacks, though... It's iterative attacks and natural attacks. Which I think we can all agree is better. As long as you have a weapon that doesn't take up a hand (like armor spikes or Improved Unarmed Strike), you can make all of your iterative attacks, plus all of your natural attacks, with your natural attacks being at close to full BAB. If, for instance, you have IUS, Multiattack, Girallon's Arms, and some sort of bite attack, with a BAB of 11, your attack routine is unarmed +11/ unarmed +6/ unarmed +1/ claw +9/ claw +9/claw +9/ claw +9/ bite +9. Eight attacks per round, with six of them at high bonus, isn't bad at all, and you can fairly easily raise it even higher.

[Prince_of_Blades]

Shifters are the perfect candidates for the Warshaper PrC (CW). All they need is a BAB of +4, and they qualify. Its got some neat stuff, like growing a natural of any type as a move action, fast healing, +4 to str and con, immunity to crits, and 5 foot more reach. They can also take the first level at 5, putting Warshaper into the rather exclusive club of PrC's that don't require at least five levels before entering.

[Chronicled]

Shifters are the perfect candidates for the Warshaper PrC (CW). All they need is a BAB of +4, and they qualify. Its got some neat stuff, like growing a natural of any type as a move action, fast healing, +4 to str and con, immunity to crits, and 5 foot more reach. They can also take the first level at 5, putting Warshaper into the rather exclusive club of PrC's that don't require at least five levels before entering.

Changlings are much better candidates for going into Warshaper, as they can make use of its benefits constantly; a shifter only can for a limited number of times per day--and shifting doesn't last that long.

[Prince_of_Blades]

I miss that line every time I look at the class. You'd think that I would remember it by now.