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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    One of my beefs about SWSE is how locked in Jedi talents seem to be. I mean, half the lightsaber talent tree, younglings are supposed to know before they ever reach padawan age. If a Jedi doesn't take Block/Deflect/Redirect, they aren't much of a jedi. This leaves precious little room for diversifying.

    Thing is, while Saga is better "balanced" than previous d20 star wars games, you'd still overpower Jedi a bit by giving them all those things for free. At least, if you didn't give a similar ability to all the other classes.

    So here's my idea, which would result in a higher powered game in general, but one that I think would really work.

    Every class gets an entire talent tree, in addition to the talents they get to choose as they level. If they do not meet the requirements for some of the talents in the tree, they do not gain the use of the talent until after they meet its requirements. If a talent in the tree can be taken more than once, you only get it once (but can choose it again with actual talent choices.)

    If you multiclass into a class after the fact, you only get to choose one extra talent from the tree they normally get all of (just like you only get one starting feat when you multiclass).

    Here would be what they get:
    Jedi - Lightsaber Combat talent tree (all jedi learn this stuff)
    Noble - Lineage talent tree (isn't this type of nobility all about lineage?)
    Scoundrel - Misfortune talent tree (Seems scoundrel-esque)
    Scout - Awareness talent tree (what a scout needs most to do his job)
    Soldier - Armor talent tree (what distinguishes soldiers most from other classes)

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Sounds like an idea, but I'd change to Soldier talent tree choice to the Weapon Specialist or whatever was the name. Doing a bucketful of hurt precisely and efficiently with their weapon because they're combat specialists is the number one thing that makes a soldier. 'Tis a pity it's so weak, maybe some Commando could be added into it.

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    Sounds like an idea, but I'd change to Soldier talent tree choice to the Weapon Specialist or whatever was the name. Doing a bucketful of hurt precisely and efficiently with their weapon because they're combat specialists is the number one thing that makes a soldier. 'Tis a pity it's so weak, maybe some Commando could be added into it.
    I was initially thinking of using commando. Then I thought about it...soldiers start with light and medium armor proficiencies...which are completely useless without at least part of the tree. If you let them all make good use of armor, they still have get to choose the other talent trees later. Alternately, I'd houserule that "Armored Defense" was innate for anyone proficient in armor, (which would still make armor useless after 5-10 levels for most people except for secondary bonuses like the fort bonus or strength bonus from some types), and give them the commando tree.

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Good idea. Innately give them The half bonus + Heroic level, and give them Commando, which is much more fitting for a soldier to have.

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    Good idea. Innately give them The half bonus + Heroic level, and give them Commando, which is much more fitting for a soldier to have.
    Actually, Armored Defense just lets them choose the greater reflex defense value...their heroic level or their armor rating. (Normally the armor overrides your heroic level bonus, regardless of which is better.) It's improved armored defense that lets you add half the armor bonus.

    The only advantage of armored defense (without improved armored defense) to a high level character is if the armor provides some secondary bonuses, like power armor's +2 strength, or the +fortitude defense bonus on so many types of armor. (which also boosts your damage threshhold).
    Last edited by Talya; 2008-05-16 at 05:50 PM.

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Exactly the reason why I'd add it. Armor defense is completely useless, because you can replicate it without taking any talents by simply removing your armor, the most sensible course if you have time. Improved defense, however...it actually makes armor useful, but is too talent intensive.

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    Exactly the reason why I'd add it. Armor defense is completely useless, because you can replicate it without taking any talents by simply removing your armor, the most sensible course if you have time. Improved defense, however...it actually makes armor useful, but is too talent intensive.
    That's a fairly powerful addition, but I think I like it, if we go with your first idea and add the weapon specialist tree instead. It's only three talents, and only one of them is really good. So if they got that tree, in addition to their armor feats providing improved armored defense, I think we've got a balanced houserule (I think I'd qualify that. Light armor proficiency provides armored defense. Medium armor proficiency provides improved armored defense. This makes it harder for other classes to get those bonuses automatically.)

    This works better than the commando tree. All soldiers use weapons. Most soldiers will use armor (or their wasting class features.) But there are things in the commando tree that not all soldiers will do (like demolitions.)

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Indeed. Seems like we have a good fix here.

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Now i just need to find a GM that will use it. ;)

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Pity you couldn't stay on mine here game, because this is SO in.

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    Pity you couldn't stay on mine here game, because this is SO in.
    Really? I may have to reconsider.

    Damn damn damn. i don't know...

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    While I would tend to like any SWSE houserule that adds more talents, since you get so few in the RAW, I disagree with the basic presumption that all Jedi automatically have Block, Deflect and Redirect as talents before reaching Padawan age. Those talents aren't required for you to lock sabers with an opponent or to block the bolts of a training remote, these are in a lot of ways an abstraction of your Reflex Defense and your HP. Any Jedi getting shot with a blaster bolt, who sees a miss come up could easily say, "I blocked it with my lightsaber"

    I'd also say that when you're presupposing all 1st level characters have certain abilities based on the fact that when we've thusfar seen very high level characters almost exclusively, why don't you assume other abilities those high level characters show are automatic? Almost every Jedi I can think of is described as an able diplomat and negotiator. Should Jedi start at level 1 with Adept Negotiator, and the rest of that tree, since Padawan Jedi can clearly Block/Deflect/Redirect, and Jedi supposedly put even more emphasis on learning and peaceful diplomacy than fighting?

    If you're saying that Block, Deflect and Redirect are overpowered, and are clearly above and beyond the most powerful choices in Talents for Jedi characters, such that no player of a Jedi character would ever take a different tree, I think the houserule should be to cut back on how powerful those talents are, rather than simply giving them away for free.
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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerthanis View Post
    While I would tend to like any SWSE houserule that adds more talents, since you get so few in the RAW, I disagree with the basic presumption that all Jedi automatically have Block, Deflect and Redirect as talents before reaching Padawan age.
    Actually, canonically, it's slightly different. Redirect is not something all jedi automatically have before reaching padawan age. Block, Deflect, and Shii-Cho are talents all jedi have before reaching padawan age. (Shii-cho is trained primarily by battling remotes with a blast helmet over your eyes...and encompasses block/deflect in its scope.) As Shii-cho is a style that is reserved for the Knight PrC...I don't imagine giving it for free is appropriate, regardless. Easier to assume that the block/deflect talents are shii-cho training, and the actual shii-cho talent represents a great mastery of the ability.
    Last edited by Talya; 2008-05-16 at 11:21 PM.

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    On the subject of Armored Defense and Improved Armored Defense: I personally made a houserule that replaced the effects of AD with IAD, and made AD automatic to anyone proficient with the armor they're wearing.
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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    Actually, canonically, it's slightly different. Redirect is not something all jedi automatically have before reaching padawan age. Block, Deflect, and Shii-Cho are talents all jedi have before reaching padawan age. (Shii-cho is trained primarily by battling remotes with a blast helmet over your eyes...and encompasses block/deflect in its scope.) As Shii-cho is a style that is reserved for the Knight PrC...I don't imagine giving it for free is appropriate, regardless. Easier to assume that the block/deflect talents are shii-cho training, and the actual shii-cho talent represents a great mastery of the ability.
    I'm afraid I don't understand, you're saying that because every Padawan learns to deflect bolts with their saber, they should automatically start with block and deflect, even though the talents could easily represent an increased aptitude or extra training for blocking or deflecting above and beyond what a normal Jedi can do. I'm not sure why this is necessary, since a Jedi with a lightsaber out can easily be said to be blocking the attacks which miss their Reflex defense.

    Let me frame this another way. Let's say we have... Kreia for instance and Luke Skywalker, post RotJ, pre-NJO... and they're both in a circular room surrounded by Battle Droids. Which of the two would survive a continuous hail of blaster bolts for longer? Kreia is a learner, a philosopher... almost a librarian. She could have never taken the Deflect talent and still been a Jedi... she could just have her Dexterity and Jedi Reflex defense to fall back on. Luke has shown considerable mastery of the act of deflecting blaster bolts, on Jabba's sail barge in particular.

    You still haven't explained why, if Jedi start with Block and Deflect, and Padawan training encompasses diplomacy as well as conflict, why you wouldn't also automatically start a Jedi with the Adept Negotiator tree as well.
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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    I don't buy the whole idea that reflex defense can represent you blocking shots with your lightsaber, because Jedi don't have particularly high reflex defenses. How does reflex defense well model this mechanic when Nobles and Soldiers have just as high a reflex defence, and Scoundrels and Scouts have reflex defenses even higher? If Jedi blocking blaster bolts was included in your defense scores, they'd have higher defense scores. (Note that the talent "Lightsaber Defense" works on this concept, and it does grant a +1 to your Reflex Defense.)
    Last edited by Talya; 2008-05-16 at 11:53 PM.

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    I don't buy the whole idea that reflex defense can represent you blocking shots with your lightsaber, because Jedi don't have particularly high reflex defenses. How does reflex defense well model this mechanic when Nobles and Soldiers have just as high a reflex defence, and Scoundrels and Scouts have reflex defenses even higher? If Jedi blocking blaster bolts was included in your defense scores, they'd have higher defense scores. (Note that the talent "Lightsaber Defense" works on this concept, and it does grant a +1 to your Reflex Defense.)
    Well... I guess I just don't think Jedi are automatically more badass than any other class, and find it easy to wrap my head around an abstraction in a system that's even more outright honest about its heroic nature of character depiction than D&D. Your reflex, fortitude and will defenses are what they are as much from your place as hero of a story, and from your general ozzum level, as from your character's training and natural skill.

    Sure, Soldiers, Nobles, Scouts and Scoundrels are all just as well defended as your Jedi is... because they're just as important and awesome as you. Unless you choose to specialize at being harder to hit as a Jedi.

    I guess the thing is, is I'm not trying to use the rules to simulate a realism based simulation of events, but as a tool to aid myself blathering cinematically about a movie that's playing in my head. If you're not playing the same type of SW game I am, this houserule makes perfect sense.
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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerthanis View Post
    I guess the thing is, is I'm not trying to use the rules to simulate a realism based simulation of events, but as a tool to aid myself blathering cinematically about a movie that's playing in my head. If you're not playing the same type of SW game I am, this houserule makes perfect sense.

    Well, the thing is, this rule makes other classes more badass as well, in all sorts of different ways. It's not a particularly huge bonus to one class, and nothing for others. All benefit equally.
    Last edited by Talya; 2008-05-17 at 12:25 AM.

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Umm actually about this rule. I tested it out on my character in the game where we were going to be testing this rule. His minimum damage at lvl one is 11 (13 if you count rage) with the ability to reduce DT by 5 on each attack and not many people having a high one this means a condition down on every hit.... or practically every hit. I fail to see how this is balanced. Take that for what you will, at this point I wager I could kill two of my teamates... maybe three with my guy alone... and these are Jedi... not that I would I just feel it is wrong... like dirty or something :P
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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamgee View Post
    Umm actually about this rule. I tested it out on my character in the game where we were going to be testing this rule. His minimum damage at lvl one is 11 (13 if you count rage) with the ability to reduce DT by 5 on each attack and not many people having a high one this means a condition down on every hit.... or practically every hit. I fail to see how this is balanced. Take that for what you will, at this point I wager I could kill two of my teamates... maybe three with my guy alone... and these are Jedi... not that I would I just feel it is wrong... like dirty or something :P
    Yeah, that soldier talent to reduce DT is brutally strong. Like I said, Jedi aren't the only ones powered up by these. Ever see how useful a noble becomes when they get the Lineage tree for free?

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    Default Re: What do you think of this SWSE houserule?

    Not to mention, don't expect you're going to face stupid mooks. They're not going to give you the quarter of popping up suddenly in the middle of a room, four squares from you, and shooting with their light blasters.

    Rather, expect entering a wolf's mouth. Is all.

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