New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 3 of 69 FirstFirst 123456789101112132853 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 2047
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Starbuck_II's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Enterprise, Alabama
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    He could go Rogue than become Monk from there.

    According to page 59 of PHB, class skills stay class skills for all new classes.
    Meaning UMD would stay a class skill for Monk and thushe would havea reasonable chance to use magic devices. "If a skill is a class skill for any of her character's classes, then character level determines a skill's maximum rank".
    However, it still would have old issue of costing double.

    Example.

    A Rogue1/Monk1 can have a rank of 5 in UMD but it will cost him 6 skill points.
    4 at 1st (due to being as Rogue skill) and 2 at 2nd (because not a Monk skill).

    A Rogue/Monk fits Joker really well: he fights unarmed sometimes and unarmored. And he is rather rogue-like.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Yeah... I liked the monk back in core only -but now, it's silly to not take the concept of the monk and build it better using different classes...

    Caster killer? Hexblade 4/Rogue 4 (fighter feat varient)/anything else X

    Shoot, you could use this for a better UMD build than the Giamonk - start with a dwarf, boost Cha, specialize in whatever fighting style you want, max out UMD, and get insane save bonuses vs spells and SLAs... mettle and evasion, yes please. Only drawback is lack of movement - but being ranged could help agains that - or use wands/staves/scrolls whatever to blast the magician. meh.

    Although, I suppose, for a lot of xp penalty (do people actually play that way?) you could go dwarf hexblade 4/monk 16. Same problem with UMD as Giamonk, though you have the triggers for the hexblade list (isn't there a feat that lets you take cross class as class skills?) But that would solve the movement problem, boost AC, grant even better base saves and grant some nice toys...

    Not that I could play it currently, my DM has outlawed Monk, Druid and Spiked Chains Something about abusive, overpowered and reality bending cheese, respectively. again, I say meh.
    Trollbait extraordinaire

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamTheCleric's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    {table]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feat | UMD | Class Ability
    1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | Skill Focus [UMD], Improved Unarmed | +7 |SA +1d6, Trapfinding
    2 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 0 | | +8 (+10 w/ scrolls) | Evasion
    3 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1 | Weapon Finesse| +9 (+11 w/ scrolls) | SA +2d6, TS +1
    4 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | | +10 (+12 w/ scrolls) |Uncanny Dodge
    5 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 1 | | +11 (+13 w/ scrolls) | SA +3d6
    6 | 4 | 2 | 5 | 2 | Superior Unarmed Strike | +12 (+14 w/ scrolls) | TS +2
    7 | 5 | 2 | 5 | 2 | | +13 (+17 w/ scrolls) | SA +4d6
    8 | 6 | 2 | 6 | 2 | | +14 (+18 w/ scrolls) | Improved Uncanny Dodge
    9 | 6 | 3 | 6 | 3 | Snap Kick | +15 (+19 w/ scrolls) | SA +5d6
    [/table]

    28 Point Buy - STR 12 DEX 15 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 10 CHA 12

    Level adjustments to attributes go into Dex

    HD 9d6+18 (49.5 average)

    Skills: 5 ranks in Decipher script at level 2. 5 ranks in spellcraft at level 7 (bought cross class). Hide, Move Silent, Tumble, Spot, Listen, Jump, Balance, Escape Artist all maxed.

    That's not using any items. Unarmed Strikes are 1d8 damage, I can "flurry" using snap kick.

    That's my "monk".
    Last edited by SamTheCleric; 2008-05-17 at 01:30 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    I'm a little confused. Don't Monks get 6 maneuvers known at first level? I'm not seeing any at all. I would expect a little Diamond Mind in any mage-killer setup.

  5. - Top - End - #65

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Xefas, here's your loli or cookie. Your pick.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Land of Cleves
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Am I the only one who noticed that Giacomo's build has no ranks in Balance whatsoever? If I'm not mistaken, that means that a first-level wizard has a pretty good chance of taking out the 20th-level monk: One Grease spell, and it's all over. Or, if we're talking a higher-level wizard who wants to get fancy about it, Incendiary Slime or Freezing Fog, or quicken that Grease (it's a first-level spell; you can afford to quicken it even without metamagic cost reducers). Or for that matter, if you don't like magic, you could just have a first level commoner, with a bag of marbles.

    Sheesh, access to Balance and other such skills is one of the monk's few advantages, and Giacomo doesn't even invest anything in it? That should be enough to dispel the myth that this guy is a monk.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Worira's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Wait, MW sense motive item? What exactly is that? Note that an alchemist's lab costs 500 gp and weighs 40 pounds, so don't claim you can make a MW tool for any skill.

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamTheCleric's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Worira View Post
    Wait, MW sense motive item? What exactly is that? Note that an alchemist's lab costs 500 gp and weighs 40 pounds, so don't claim you can make a MW tool for any skill.
    Primitive polygraph?

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Illiterate Scribe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Dat Shoggoth

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Am I the only one who noticed that Giacomo's build has no ranks in Balance whatsoever? If I'm not mistaken, that means that a first-level wizard has a pretty good chance of taking out the 20th-level monk: One Grease spell, and it's all over. Or, if we're talking a higher-level wizard who wants to get fancy about it, Incendiary Slime or Freezing Fog, or quicken that Grease (it's a first-level spell; you can afford to quicken it even without metamagic cost reducers). Or for that matter, if you don't like magic, you could just have a first level commoner, with a bag of marbles.

    Sheesh, access to Balance and other such skills is one of the monk's few advantages, and Giacomo doesn't even invest anything in it? That should be enough to dispel the myth that this guy is a monk.
    You forget the Giacomonk's train of cheerleading fangirl psion groupies who cast psychic reformation for him. He has leadership, y'know.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Mmm, I would like to interject, without reading all three pages of material, that the WBL Guidelines, are just that, guidelines, in actual play, the amount of money spent on items is completely inconsequential, all a character has to do is say "Man, i need some cash for my sweet items, Hey Mr. Dungeon Master, I wanna start looking around for a quest that'll bring me in sum phat lewtz."

    Sure, its' DM approval, but it's no different from us assuming that the Wizard has every spell in existence available to him by 20th level. That's a massive amount of time and energy to find the spells, assuming they exist, and scribing them, which costs some moeny, excluding a BBB.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the monk build here, because if the Monk can do it, so can the Wizard, and the Wizard has many easier ways to make it work, hell, teleport alone opens up option considerably.

    Just saying, lay off the monk because it exceeds WBL, who cares, it's nothing that really effects the game in any real sense anyway. D&D isn't played in a vaccuum, the DM is there for a reason.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Morty's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Poland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by TempusCCK View Post
    Mmm, I would like to interject, without reading all three pages of material, that the WBL Guidelines, are just that, guidelines, in actual play, the amount of money spent on items is completely inconsequential, all a character has to do is say "Man, i need some cash for my sweet items, Hey Mr. Dungeon Master, I wanna start looking around for a quest that'll bring me in sum phat lewtz."

    Sure, its' DM approval, but it's no different from us assuming that the Wizard has every spell in existence available to him by 20th level. That's a massive amount of time and energy to find the spells, assuming they exist, and scribing them, which costs some moeny, excluding a BBB.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the monk build here, because if the Monk can do it, so can the Wizard, and the Wizard has many easier ways to make it work, hell, teleport alone opens up option considerably.

    Just saying, lay off the monk because it exceeds WBL, who cares, it's nothing that really effects the game in any real sense anyway. D&D isn't played in a vaccuum, the DM is there for a reason.
    Yes, but there's about equal chance that DM will be stingy about treasure and/or will prefer to give PCs items rather than gold they can spend in Ye Olde Magick Shoppe. So it's safer to just use WBL in theoretical optimization.
    Last edited by Morty; 2008-05-17 at 01:10 PM.
    My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
    Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Banned
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Well guys,

    with all that evidence piled up in front of you, you still doubt? Hmmm...might get to be a long thread. But thanks to Lord_khaine and to some of the more neutral/mind-not-made-up-yet posters. Ah, what the heck - thanks to you all for your feedback. I'll see what I can do to provide both entertaining and elucidating answers.

    In this post, I'll try to respond to the questions raised up to this point, although not all at a time. I'll edit it continuously to one by one comment on your comments.

    First, because it showcases so well how some - despite the lengthy, detailed guide above - apparently do not get what it's all about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Real Men Don't Need Wands

    It took me only a few minutes to come up with a counter-build.

    Omocaig, human Ranger 1 / Barbarian 9

    Stats: S14 D16 C12, I10 W14 X8, level boosts go to strength.
    Feats: Improved initiative (1), Iron will (1), Power attack (3), two spare feats (6, 9)

    {table]Lev|HP|AC|Fort|Ref|Will|Att|Items
    1|9*|16|3*|5|2|3|studded leather
    2|15|18|5|5*|2|4|breastplate
    3|22|18|6|5*|4|5
    4|28|19|6|6|5|6|cloak +1, armor +1
    5|35|21|8|7*|6|8|ring +1, amulet +1, weapon +1
    6|41|21|8|7|6|9
    7|48|22|9|8|7|11|cloak +2, armor +2, ogre gauntlets
    8|54|22|10|9|8|13
    9|61|24|11|9|8|14|cloak +3, armor +3, ring +2
    10|67|25|12|11|10|15|amulet +2, 11000 gp remaining
    [/table]

    If my math is correct, then at every point, this rangarian has (1) more HP, (2) better AC, (3) higher fortitude and reflex saves, (4) higher attack bonus, and (5) more damage per hit than the Joke, except for the few spots marked *, where they are tied. His will save is on average one point behind. I didn't bother doing the math up to level 20, since most campaigns never reach level 20 anyway.

    And that's before raging. When in rage, his attack and fort save go through the roof, his will save exceeds the Joke's, and his armor class is still better. By level 5, he's a better grappler while raging; by level 8, he's a better grappler even when not raging.

    Mind you, this is not particularly optimized; I'm sure some of the other forum regulars could improve this build even without leaving core. Nevertheless, it shows once again that the Gonk build is made of FAIL.
    Well, Kurald Galain, the joke is all yours - but not in the way you wish it to be. First of all, I tried a full class build in core to show that a monk is a solid, useful class with unique tactics and abilities. So it makes hardly sense to compare a multiclass build to that.
    And even so, your build will not beat the Joker (neither does your Samurai btw, but you probably meant that as a joke) - not because the monk class is so strong, but because your build is simply not optimised enough for the discussion we are probably going to lead here.
    You may have noticed the sections where I outlined the grappling tactics. Assuming your two spare feats go to improved grapple, maybe in level 9 (where you get the improved grapple) you get near to the Joker's level in the grapple check ALONE.
    Unfortunately, thanks to his UMD tactics that you so much try to ridicule, he still outgrapples you at that level (+18 vs your +19, but he'll have more grapple attempts and more grappling damage). Your higher AC is as useless in that situation as is your power attack.
    This situation btw assumes you have your rage up. This is where the higher move of the monk and his ability to hide (whereas your barbarian does not have spot as class ability and thus is behind in opposed checks) comes in so handy. He can simply wait out your rage. Then you are fatigued - and guess who'll be ahead then in grapple?
    Well, you might say, then I'll simply charge the Joker with a greatsword and power attack! Again, you disregard the monk's class ability. Thanks to his combat reflexes, he'll grapple you before you even reach him. And while his attack bonus (as you rightfully point out) is lower, he only needs to hit the touch AC, making your expensive armour useless.

    What you fail to grasp here, Kurald Galain, is to simply pile up some numbers and believe that this is all what combat strategy is about. There is much more...

    *********

    Now on to the other posters:

    1) Please do not list non-core base classes as comparison. This hardly helps, although my big suspicion is that once I have a look at the fabled factotum class, all of Azerion Kelimon's notions of uberness will be easily disproven. And I am almost certain that a factotum will not outgrapple a monk, not even a core one.

    2) The example Joker can use his wands with 100% certainty already at level 15, not 20. And he can - if boosting beforehand with heroism and eagle's splendour (similar wands, usable out of combat) - use wands with 100% certainty already at level 9 in case he likes to.
    Now, in lower levels, please read again what I wrote about how to use wands. The trick is to avoid casting it close to combat whenever possible. Longer-lasting stuff (10mins/lvl), touch spells (hold the charge, you hardly cast often) and heal spells are among those.
    As for enlarge - well, that 1-2 rounds of buff should be available in many situations, in particular since the monk is such a good scout and has better encounter control this way than most other classes (and better than many creatures or opponents).

    3) @Telonius: for the spells I listed, the Joker will never have to emulate an ability score, since WIS is all he needs. AMF and even Time Stop are all also divine spells.

    4) @Vortling: A rogue can use UMD much better, but he makes less use out of grappling tactics (including enlarge) than a monk. Similarly, divine power is not quite as good for him, since STR synergises less with most rogues' DEX-heavy builds. Otherwise - yes, a rogue should definitely make use of UMD to get it for wand activation at the crucial +19 level by around level 7 (most rogues will also have higher CHR).
    Similarly, @Theodoxus: Of course, CHR-heavy classes which have UMD even as class skill can use that skill MORE easily than the monk. This does not mean that a monk should not use it - there are simply spells out there that synergise best with him.
    Plus, having a high UMD score at a certain point is no longer necessary. For the key cheap wand level 1-4 access all you need is the +19 level.

    5) to all: This monk is not meant to illustrate that a monk is STRONGER than all classes. Only that he keeps up with them and CAN contribute in various roles and niches.
    An added bonus is that one of the Joker's niches is to make life horrible for spellcasters.

    6) @Fenix_of_Doom: yes, I admit the Spellstaff idea is tricky. What does "normally" cast mean? As a DM, though, I'd admit that I would also lean towards interpreting as "normally" as opposed to "cast from scrolls, wands etc.". Still, I think the idea would be very nice It probably depends on the power level of the campaign.

    7) As for the masterwork items - the PHB assumes there is one for every skill (PHB 131-133, it also costs only 50gp, not 100). This is what I'd think the joker monk wears in terms of masterwork items:
    Move Silently: Foot clothing worn underneath boots.
    Hide: Dark clothes
    Spot: Glasses worn over goggles
    Listen: Devices on ears making them more sensitive to acoustics (could be also a kind of leather cap, combined with the glasses - like a fantasy pilot cap
    UMD: Special wires worn around your forearms, wrists and underneath your gloves. These wires in that campaign world make you more attuned with magic.
    Spellcraft: Similar wires of different material - or some kind of runic notes of major spell classe written on forearm bracers.
    Diplomacy: manly perfume
    Sense Motive: ah, difficult one. Possibly some rare animal skin that is sensitive to changed body warmth of lying opponent.
    Jump: sport bandages around legs.
    Tumble: sport bandages around arms.
    Knowledge- Arcane: as per Spellcraft or UMD
    Perform- Jokes: there were good suggestions made avove


    8)- x. Will be updated as I catch up with the thread up to this point.

    Now, for a grand finale...Solo.

    Ach, Solo. I must admit that I am a bit disappointed by your posts. It somehow tells me you have not read the guide intently enough - but I'll wait a bit until you have done so.

    In the meantime, let me assist lord_khaine in also commenting on your post:


    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    Monks aren't casters, for starters, nor are they meant to emulate casters via UMD as evidenced by their lack of UMD as a class skill?
    Of course monks are not casters! What an insult to the Joker to believe he is Batman?
    Seriously. You do not seem to understand that spellcasting is a subgroup of that particular thing in DD 3.5 called magic.
    Magic is available to all. It's not a monopoly of casters. Even Kurald Galain's rangarian uses magic (although in a not that optimised way).
    So where is the problem?
    I hardly see anyone ridiculing a Cleric using divine power to emulate a fighter (although he fails at it btw). Or a wizard using invisibility and flying to be a scout (although not that optimised, either imo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    If you want to UMD your way to victory, why not just play a class that has UMD as a class skill?
    As for other classes being better at UMD, see above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    We're talking about the Giacomo school of monks here, though. Your own school of monk building deserves it's own thread.
    Actually, it does! Truth to tell, some of the Joker's fu is due to what he learned at Master lord_khaine's monastery: that is, that grappling is a great tactics. Earlier joker versions would have rather walked the path of finesse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    Ah, but we are talking about the Giamonk here, you know, the Joker build he posted? Again, your own monk build, your own thread for independent discussion. We gotta keep focused on Giacomo here. It's his thread, after all.
    Well, since it's a monk's guide thread, lord_khaine is more than welcome to add variant ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    First off, get some form of spellcheck. Seriously.
    Not that necessary imo - his posts are interesting enough to stomach a couple of typos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    Second, I googled CR 10 monsters on the SRD google, and pretty much everything I came up with that was CR10 would be a challenge for the Giamonk. Granted, I stopped looking after 2-3 pages, so maybe all the weenie grapplers were hiding in the back. Would you care to do a more thorough analysis in order to refute me?
    The two monsters are beaten by the Enlarged Giamonk. And the Enlarged Giamonk would in turn be beaten by the Enlarged version of those 2 creatures.
    Solo, I strongly recommend to you the SRD monster filter. here
    You'll then have to simply build ratios of the monsters able to outgrapple the monk to those who can't. You'll be surprised.
    And enlarge person only applies to humanoids, not the vast majority of monsters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    In conclusion, solo win.
    Nope, though you are free to stay in this belief...Actually I plan to add later a check of your sorcerer spells once proposed in a different thread at the given monk levels to see, if the monk has a good chance. My gut feeling tells me Ozymandias should avoid the Joker

    Ah, and one more thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I feel the need to point out that in the comics, the joker has consistently failed to beat Batman. Ah, the irony
    .
    It depends...the joker always DID survive and come back. How alike the monk
    Plus, in the last appearance I know of (dark knight returns) the Joker has the last laugh...

    - Giacomo
    Last edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-05-17 at 01:24 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    And even in the mystical nonexistent full 1-to-20 game, WBL isn't a pool of gold you spend on whatever you wish, it's just a guideline for the the collective value of items the DM would throw at you by then, going at 13.3 encounters per level blah blah blah blah blah. If you don't want the crap, sure, you can sell it, but not at full value (unless your DM loves you), but you still won't have a giant mythical pool of GP to cherry-pick whatever magic items you want. And that's if your campaign has Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe or whatever we refer to those as.

    So the WBL gauge commonly used in theorycrafting is really quite generous.

  14. - Top - End - #74

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Well guys,

    with all that evidence piled up in front of you, you still doubt? Hmmm...might get to be a long thread. But thanks to Lord_khaine and to some of the more neutral/mind-not-made-up-yet posters. Ah, what the heck - thanks to you all for your feedback. I'll see what I can do to provide both entertaining and elucidating answers.

    In this post, I'll try to respond to the questions raised up to this point, although not all at a time. I'll edit it continuously to one by one comment on your comments.

    First, because it showcases so well how some - despite the lengthy, detailed guide above - apparently do not get what it's all about.



    Well, Kurald Galain, the joke is all yours - but not in the way you wish it to be. First of all, I tried a full class build in core to show that a monk is a solid, useful class with unique tactics and abilities. So it makes hardly sense to compare a multiclass build to that.
    And even so, your build will not beat the Joker (neither does your Samurai btw, but you probably meant that as a joke) - not because the monk class is so strong, but because your build is simply not optimised enough for the discussion we are probably going to lead here.
    You may have noticed the sections where I outlined the grappling tactics. Assuming your two spare feats go to improved grapple, maybe in level 9 (where you get the improved grapple) you get near to the Joker's level in the grapple check ALONE.
    Unfortunately, thanks to his UMD tactics that you so much try to ridicule, he still outgrapples you at that level (+18 vs your +19, but he'll have more grapple attempts and more grappling damage). Your higher AC is as useless in that situation as is your power attack.
    This situation btw assumes you have your rage up. This is where the higher move of the monk and his ability to hide (whereas your barbarian does not have spot as class ability and thus is behind in opposed checks) comes in so handy. He can simply wait out your rage. Then you are fatigued - and guess who'll be ahead then in grapple?
    Well, you might say, then I'll simply charge the Joker with a greatsword and power attack! Again, you disregard the monk's class ability. Thanks to his combat reflexes, he'll grapple you before you even reach him. And while his attack bonus (as you rightfully point out) is lower, he only needs to hit the touch AC, making your expensive armour useless.

    What you fail to grasp here, Kurald Galain, is to simply pile up some numbers and believe that this is all what combat strategy is about. There is much more...

    *********

    Now on to the other posters:

    1) Please do not list non-core base classes as comparison. This hardly helps, although my big suspicion is that once I have a look at the fabled factotum class, all of Azerion Kelimon's notions of uberness will be easily disproven. And I am almost certain that a factotum will not outgrapple a monk, not even a core one.

    2) The example Joker can use his wands with 100% certainty already at level 15, not 20. And he can - if boosting beforehand with heroism and eagle's splendour (similar wands, usable out of combat) - use wands with 100% certainty already at level 9 in case he likes to.
    Now, in lower levels, please read again what I wrote about how to use wands. The trick is to avoid casting it close to combat whenever possible. Longer-lasting stuff (10mins/lvl), touch spells (hold the charge, you hardly cast often) and heal spells are among those.
    As for enlarge - well, that 1-2 rounds of buff should be available in many situations, in particular since the monk is such a good scout and has better encounter control this way than most other classes (and better than many creatures or opponents).

    3) @Telonius: for the spells I listed, the Joker will never have to emulate an ability score, since WIS is all he needs. AMF and even Time Stop are all also divine spells.

    4) @Vortling: A rogue can use UMD much better, but he makes less use out of grappling tactics (including enlarge) than a monk. Similarly, divine power is not quite as good for him, since STR synergises less with most rogues' DEX-heavy builds. Otherwise - yes, a rogue should definitely make use of UMD to get it for wand activation at the crucial +19 level by around level 7 (most rogues will also have higher CHR).
    Similarly, @Theodoxus: Of course, CHR-heavy classes which have UMD even as class skill can use that skill MORE easily than the monk. This does not mean that a monk should not use it - there are simply spells out there that synergise best with him.
    Plus, having a high UMD score at a certain point is no longer necessary. For the key cheap wand level 1-4 access all you need is the +19 level.

    5) to all: This monk is not meant to illustrate that a monk is STRONGER than all classes. Only that he keeps up with them and CAN contribute in various roles and niches.
    An added bonus is that one of the Joker's niches is to make life horrible for spellcasters.

    6) @Fenix_of_Doom: yes, I admit the Spellstaff idea is tricky. What does "normally" cast mean? As a DM, though, I'd admit that I would also lean towards interpreting as "normally" as opposed to "cast from scrolls, wands etc.". Still, I think the idea would be very nice It probably depends on the power level of the campaign.

    7) As for the masterwork items - the PHB assumes there is one for every skill (PHB 131-133, it also costs only 50gp, not 100). This is what I'd think the joker monk wears in terms of masterwork items:
    Move Silently: Foot clothing worn underneath boots.
    Hide: Dark clothes
    Spot: Glasses worn over goggles
    Listen: Devices on ears making them more sensitive to acoustics (could be also a kind of leather cap, combined with the glasses - like a fantasy pilot cap
    UMD: Special wires worn around your forearms, wrists and underneath your gloves. These wires in that campaign world make you more attuned with magic.
    Spellcraft: Similar wires of different material - or some kind of runic notes of major spell classe written on forearm bracers.
    Diplomacy: manly perfume
    Sense Motive: ah, difficult one. Possibly some rare animal skin that is sensitive to changed body warmth of lying opponent.
    Jump: sport bandages around legs.
    Tumble: sport bandages around arms.
    Knowledge- Arcane: as per Spellcraft or UMD
    Perform- Jokes: there were good suggestions made avove


    8)- x. Will be updated as I catch up with the thread up to this point.

    Now, for a grand finale...Solo.

    Ach, Solo. I must admit that I am a bit disappointed by your posts. It somehow tells me you have not read the guide intently enough - but I'll wait a bit until you have done so.

    In the meantime, let me assist lord_khaine in also commenting on your post:




    Of course monks are not casters! What an insult to the Joker to believe he is Batman?
    Seriously. You do not seem to understand that spellcasting is a subgroup of that particular thing in DD 3.5 called magic.
    Magic is available to all. It's not a monopoly of casters. Even Kurald Galain's rangarian uses magic (although in a not that optimised way).
    So where is the problem?
    I hardly see anyone ridiculing a Cleric using divine power to emulate a fighter (although he fails at it btw). Or a wizard using invisibility and flying to be a scout (although not that optimised, either imo)



    As for other classes being better at UMD, see above.



    Actually, it does! Truth to tell, some of the Joker's fu is due to what he learned at Master lord_khaine's monastery: that is, that grappling is a great tactics. Earlier joker versions would have rather walked the path of finesse.



    Well, since it's a monk's guide thread, lord_khaine is more than welcome to add variant ideas.



    Not that necessary imo - his posts are interesting enough to stomach a couple of typos.



    Solo, I strongly recommend to you the SRD monster filter. here
    You'll then have to simply build ratios of the monsters able to outgrapple the monk to those who can't. You'll be surprised.
    And enlarge person only applies to humanoids, not the vast majority of monsters.



    Nope, though you are free to stay in this belief...Actually I plan to add later a check of your sorcerer spells once proposed in a different thread at the given monk levels to see, if the monk has a good chance. My gut feeling tells me Ozymandias should avoid the Joker

    Ah, and one more thing...



    It depends...the joker always DID survive and come back. How alike the monk
    Plus, in the last appearance I know of (dark knight returns) the Joker has the last laugh...

    - Giacomo
    And well done, sir. You olympically skirted the fact Indiana Jones is doing everything your so called Joker can, and better.

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Banned
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleen View Post
    And even in the mystical nonexistent full 1-to-20 game, WBL isn't a pool of gold you spend on whatever you wish, it's just a guideline for the the collective value of items the DM would throw at you by then, going at 13.3 encounters per level blah blah blah blah blah. If you don't want the crap, sure, you can sell it, but not at full value (unless your DM loves you), but you still won't have a giant mythical pool of GP to cherry-pick whatever magic items you want. And that's if your campaign has Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe or whatever we refer to those as.

    So the WBL gauge commonly used in theorycrafting is really quite generous.
    Completely agree with you. However, for purposes of comparing builds we need to resort to what the game assumes the characters have, not magic-poor campaigns, or campaigns where players cannot buy items.
    And the wbl is exactly that. If you sell the loot and you only receive half of its value in terms of magic items, than the latter thing (WEALTH by level, not USELESS JUNK by level) is what counts.

    - Giacomo

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamTheCleric's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Awesome, I got ignored... especially since I made a better giamonk using rogue.

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Banned
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    And well done, sir. You olympically skirted the fact Indiana Jones is doing everything your so called Joker can, and better.
    And you skirted the fact that the guide is core only, while your factotum Indiane Jones is not (and I still doubt that your factotum build will be that great, though you are free to start a thread on that).

    - Giacomo

  18. - Top - End - #78

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Indy IS core only, in fact. Just add Dungeonscape and FoI and he can do everything you do better, because of Cunning X.

    Really. It IS that good, and the other people here will help me show why.

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Banned
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by SamTheCleric View Post
    Awesome, I got ignored... especially since I made a better giamonk using rogue.
    Sorry! I actually thought you posted your rogue build using non-core feats as some suggestions what can be done to emulate some monk abiliies.
    You do realise that without monk abilities and mediocre unarmed damage, all the UMD of the world will not help you overcome this problem?

    - Giaocmo

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Banned
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe View Post
    You forget the Giacomonk's train of cheerleading fangirl psion groupies who cast psychic reformation for him. He has leadership, y'know.
    Please, if you try being funny at least try so without deliberately misinterpreting me (or actually reading what I posted). The Joker monk does not have leadership.

    - Giacomo

  21. - Top - End - #81

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Sneak attack and Cunning X solve that. See, many d6's of damage and INT to AB, AC, and damage is more than enough to kick the ass of your joker, blindfolded, and not exactly with a blindfold of true darkness.

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Renegade Paladin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Indiana
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleen View Post
    And even in the mystical nonexistent full 1-to-20 game,
    *Raises hand.* Done it. Twice, working on a third now.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  23. - Top - End - #83
    Banned
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    Sneak attack and Cunning X solve that. See, many d6's of damage and INT to AB, AC, and damage is more than enough to kick the ass of your joker, blindfolded, and not exactly with a blindfold of true darkness.
    Build please. In a different thread, though (because it's a factotum, not a core class, and definitely will not emulate a monk by using sneak attack).

    - Giaocomo

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamTheCleric's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    (Note: I'm looking at your level 9 vs my level 9... and please note that I have not spent any of my wealth)

    I'm only 1d8 behind you on damage... your 2d8 damage only offers an average of 4.5 damage more, which is more than made up by my 5d6 sneak attack. Also, I can use +1 Corrosive Gauntlets to bring my damage up to 1d8+1d6+2

    You can grapple all you want, my escape artist will beat it. (12 ranks, 3 dex, 6 vest of escape... +21 without much optimizing)

    For every buff you cast, that's a round that I can buff as well.

    It doesnt prove that you made the monk viable, it only proves that you've abused UMD (which is far too easy to do)

    I do like that you're so dedicated and passionate about this, and that you defend it... but I can honestly say that you're fighting a very uphill battle.
    Last edited by SamTheCleric; 2008-05-17 at 01:37 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #85

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Build please. In a different thread, though (because it's a factotum, not a core class, and definitely will not emulate a monk by using sneak attack).

    - Giaocomo
    *Laugh*

    BUILD? FoI, FoI, More FoI, and Improved Unarmed strike. Max Int, put remaining points to STR. I'm going to go first, I'm going to dodge your attacks, and I'm going to do an asskicking amount of damage. And I have minor spellcasting, too. Without UMD.

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Illiterate Scribe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Dat Shoggoth

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Please, if you try being funny at least try so without deliberately misinterpreting me (or actually reading what I posted). The Joker monk does not have leadership.

    - Giacomo
    I found it hi-lol-rious. Also, while this iteration may not have leadership, without your 'so not RAW or RAI it's no longer funny' mono-charged wands, how are you getting Divine Power?

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Banned
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Am I the only one who noticed that Giacomo's build has no ranks in Balance whatsoever? If I'm not mistaken, that means that a first-level wizard has a pretty good chance of taking out the 20th-level monk: One Grease spell, and it's all over. Or, if we're talking a higher-level wizard who wants to get fancy about it, Incendiary Slime or Freezing Fog, or quicken that Grease (it's a first-level spell; you can afford to quicken it even without metamagic cost reducers). Or for that matter, if you don't like magic, you could just have a first level commoner, with a bag of marbles.

    Sheesh, access to Balance and other such skills is one of the monk's few advantages, and Giacomo doesn't even invest anything in it? That should be enough to dispel the myth that this guy is a monk.
    Grease? Are you joking?
    First of all, grease necessitates a Reflex save. Why casting a save-spell that if successful only means someone falls down? Try a charm person instead.
    Then, the monk's reflex save is good enough to have a good chance at passing the save.
    Then, the Joker with a 50gp Masterwork item has a +6 balance skill, meaning he can easily make that DC 10 check most of the time,
    Then, he can simply make a 5ft step out of the 10ft square area (full-round action).

    And grease vs a level 20 dimdooring, etheral, flying, teleporting joker monk. Yeah, that's going to get you somewhere...

    - Giacomo

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Illiterate Scribe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Dat Shoggoth

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Wrong, Gia - read Grease again.

    A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).
    That's two opportunities to fall.

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Well guys,

    with all that evidence piled up in front of you, you still doubt?
    I think I can speak for Solo, Azerion, Sam, Illiterate and probably a bunch of others when I say that there is no doubt whatsoever on our side.

    Anyway, you completely missed the point of my post. It's not about PVP, it's about contributing more. Without even trying hard, I created a basic core character that has every vital statistic higher than your highly unorthodox, dubiously legal, overly complex monk build. It's all about viability, and the gonk fails at that.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  30. - Top - End - #90

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Grease? Are you joking?
    First of all, grease necessitates a Reflex save. Why casting a save-spell that if successful only means someone falls down? Try a charm person instead.
    Then, the monk's reflex save is good enough to have a good chance at passing the save.
    Then, the Joker with a 50gp Masterwork item has a +6 balance skill, meaning he can easily make that DC 10 check most of the time,
    Then, he can simply make a 5ft step out of the 10ft square area (full-round action).

    And grease vs a level 20 dimdooring, etheral, flying, teleporting joker monk. Yeah, that's going to get you somewhere...

    - Giacomo
    Without five ranks in balance, and notice it is RANKS, you are caught flatfooted by balancing. A rogue then shreds you with SA. See? Brought down by grease.

    And if you want me to show you how this works, we can set up a fight in Alpha in PbP. You set the rules.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •