New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 4 of 69 FirstFirst 12345678910111213142954 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 2047
  1. - Top - End - #91
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    I'm sorry, but I just don't see any actual "monk" abilities in here. I see UMD and Grapple, which other classes can do well. And Grapple is seldom a reliable option in a real campaign, given how many monsters of the Monk's level could easily beat him in a grapple.

    "You multiclassed" does not ever invalidate an optimization build, because dipping in and out for various features is part of optimizing. If your monk could have dipped a few levels of something to be better, then he should have, as long as the monk still has mostly-monk levels and features.

    And again, he isn't really using any of his monk features. Just UMD and Grapple. He isn't "filling a niche", he's "doing what a number of other classes can do, but worse."

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    You do realise that without monk abilities and mediocre unarmed damage, all the UMD of the world will not help you overcome this problem?
    Sure it will. Has it occured to you that, if you have the power of UMD at your disposal, hitting people with your bare hands might not be all that great a strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    The Joker monk does not have leadership.
    Well, that's too bad, because the easiest way to make it a viable character would be to give it a wizard cohort. But I see you're already starting with insults and ad hominems in your second round of posting... so I suppose this thread will quickly become as locked as the last five or six monk threads.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Banned
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by SamTheCleric View Post
    (Note: I'm looking at your level 9 vs my level 9... and please note that I have not spent any of my wealth)
    Let us see how long you get by without spending anything

    Quote Originally Posted by SamTheCleric View Post
    I'm only 1d8 behind you on damage... your 2d8 damage only offers an average of 4.5 damage more,
    ...no, actually it's 9 more damage...

    Quote Originally Posted by SamTheCleric View Post
    which is more than made up by my 5d6 sneak attack.
    ...which is highly situational and will not apply in open combat you suggest. If you manage to beat the Joker'S spot check or initiative you MAY get in ONE sneak attack....

    Quote Originally Posted by SamTheCleric View Post
    Also, I can use +1 Corrosive Gauntlets to bring my damage up to 1d8+1d6+2
    ...and I could use belt of battle to kick you to kingdom come. Non-core items are not getting you anywhere here...

    Quote Originally Posted by SamTheCleric View Post
    You can grapple all you want, my escape artist will beat it. (12 ranks, 3 dex, 6 vest of escape... +21 without much optimizing)
    No, escape artist will not help you, with as many optimisation as you like. You need a standard action for that, and moving away triggers AoOs from the Joker, who simply grapples you again. Then he fllurry-grapples on his turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamTheCleric View Post
    For every buff you cast, that's a round that I can buff as well.
    Yes, feel free to do so. But I'd recommend buffs that make the rogue good at his rogue stuff, and not at what the monk does best.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamTheCleric View Post
    It doesnt prove that you made the monk viable, it only proves that you've abused UMD (which is far too easy to do)
    Yes, I hear that all the time. I used polymorph, leadership, diplomacy, the eversmoking bottle/blind-fight, UMD, AMF, Silence, Divine Power, spellstaff and masterwork items and all the time I get to hear is "naw, this does not show monks are good, it's just broken/stupid stuff.." Very tiring.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamTheCleric View Post
    I do like that you're so dedicated and passionate about this, and that you defend it... but I can honestly say that you're fighting a very uphill battle.
    Yes, and it is because of posts like yours. Seriously: you provide a non-core rogue build with no apparently no idea what a monk can do best, unparalelled to illustrate that the monk sucks? Why is it so difficult to see what can be got out of that class and be happy about it?

    - Giacomo

  4. - Top - End - #94

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    So, no answers for me. Ready to back up your build against Indy Jones in a series of regulated matches? You even get to set the rules.

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Banned
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    Without five ranks in balance, and notice it is RANKS, you are caught flatfooted by balancing. A rogue then shreds you with SA. See? Brought down by grease.
    Er...so the Joker is now fighting two opponents at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    And if you want me to show you how this works, we can set up a fight in Alpha in PbP. You set the rules.
    Hmmm...tempting. At the moment, my real life working schedule will not allow it, but I'll get back to that (after I also have a look at the factotum description).

    - Giacomo

  6. - Top - End - #96

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Okay.

    Then, you cannot defend monks until we have our match. Until cold, hard evidence is provided, all of this argument is moot. For both sides. Which means, we don't mess with you, you do not defend monks.

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Yes, I hear that all the time. I used polymorph, leadership, diplomacy, the eversmoking bottle/blind-fight, UMD, AMF, Silence, Divine Power, spellstaff and masterwork items and all the time I get to hear is "naw, this does not show monks are good, it's just broken/stupid stuff.." Very tiring.
    So build us a monk that doesn't use any of them and works well. That should shut everyone up real quick.

    High level question for you Gia. What is this monk supposed to do to contribute? What is his role in the party? Is it damage dealer? Is it scout? Is it meat shield? You seem to be focusing on shutting down casters, but isn't that as situational, if not moreso, than the rogue's sneak attack? Since you don't think he's a 5th party member, which of the 4 classic classes (Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue) is he replacing?

    When you've addressed that then I think we can get to the heart of the matter.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Eh, he made a core-only monk build, it's common knowledge that the power creep skyrockets as you throw in more and more stuff.

    This needs to be core-only until Giacomo can make a non-core build to match, that's the only way to keep this fair. Just someone make up a core-only batman to face him,and you can finally see once and for all what's going on.

    I still think Batman will waste him, but eh, at least it would be an even (kinda sorta, not really) match.

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Illiterate Scribe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Dat Shoggoth

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    Without five ranks in balance, and notice it is RANKS, you are caught flatfooted by balancing. A rogue then shreds you with SA. See? Brought down by grease.

    And if you want me to show you how this works, we can set up a fight in Alpha in PbP. You set the rules.
    Damn, and I thought that we'd have to concede the point there. Didn't spot that balance thing.

    *hi fives over the body of a dead Giamonk*

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Er...so the Joker is now fighting two opponents at the same time?
    Just the one, the Indianactotum (yes, facepalm.jpg at the name, I know. But it sticks until Azerian comes up with a better name).
    Last edited by Illiterate Scribe; 2008-05-17 at 02:00 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #100

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by TempusCCK View Post
    Eh, he made a core-only monk build, it's common knowledge that the power creep skyrockets as you throw in more and more stuff.

    This needs to be core-only until Giacomo can make a non-core build to match, that's the only way to keep this fair. Just someone make up a core-only batman to face him,and you can finally see once and for all what's going on.

    I still think Batman will waste him, but eh, at least it would be an even (kinda sorta, not really) match.
    I dunno, a factotum using three or four level 3 or lower spells from the core, FoI, and his class will beat him. Not much potential for power creep there.

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamTheCleric's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Oh, I'm sorry... I stepped out of core with Corrosive.

    Let's try this:

    Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4000)
    Vest of Escape (5200)
    Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000)
    +1 Shock Gauntlets (8302)
    +2 Breastplate (4350) + Mithral (4000)

    29852 total

    6148g to spend on scrolls.
    Nightwing, Batman's first sidekick who makes it on his own
    Rogue 9
    Hit Dice: 9d6+18 (49.5)
    Initiative: +5
    Speed: 30
    Armor Class: 22 (+4 Dex, +8 [+2 Mithral Breastplate])
    Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+7
    Attack: Unarmed +11 melee (1d8+1d6[Electricity]+2)
    Full Attack: Unarmed +11/+6 melee (1d8+1d6[electricity]+2) or Unarmed Snap Kick +9/+9/+4 melee (1d8+1d6+2)
    Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks: Snap Kick, Sneak Attack +5d6
    Special Qualities: Trap Sense +3, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Evasion
    Saves: Fort +7, Ref +13, Will +5
    Abilities: Str 12 Dex 19 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 12
    Skills: Escape Artist +22, Use Magic Device +15 (+19 w/ scrolls), Decipher Script +6, Spellcraft +8, Spot +12, Listen +12, Tumble +18, Jump +13, Balance +16, Hide +16, Move Silently +16, Open Lock +8
    Feats: Skill Focus [Use Magic Device], Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick
    I think that more than equals your Giamonk, without going out of core.
    Last edited by SamTheCleric; 2008-05-17 at 02:07 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #102

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe View Post
    Just the one, the Indianactotum (yes, facepalm.jpg at the name, I know. But it sticks until Azerian comes up with a better name).

    That's actually a REALLY good one, on par with the 'totum being called Indiana Jones, in fact. It should stick.

    I also considered Batman (in his current, non contingenced version, since he is a gigantic brain who is also pretty good at everything else), but the title was taken.

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamTheCleric's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    I feel quite geeky for naming mine Nightiwng.

  14. - Top - End - #104

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Wait, Batman the factotum, and Nightwing the rogue...


    We have something good here. Something VERY good. I propose we rename Batman Wizards to God wizards.

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Banned
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    So, Gia, what does your monk do when the monsters get the drop on the party, or when no one gets surprise (as is the case with 90% of encounters)?

    Does he try to use his Enlarge wand in combat, which takes an average of 2 rounds at +9 UMD, and miss a third of the fight?
    Does he run away?

    How do you use a "run away and wait out buffs" tactic in a party? Where do you run to? Why won't the spellcaster chase the party?

    What makes you think you're more likely to fight *under*-CR enemies than *over*-CR? Performance against low-CR creatures is totally irrelevant, because anyone can blow through them.

    At level 2, you have an AC of 14. I'm pretty sure this is a federal crime. While you're grappling, you can't move around--monsters can walk up to you and bury their appendage of choice in your kidney.

    Now, some CR 3 monsters (note that at level 3 your grapple is only +1 over level 2):
    Allip: you want to grapple an Allip? Really?
    Animated Object, Large: I've never seen one of those used, but whatever. Grapple of +10. You *have* to be Enlarged for this.
    Air Elemental, Medium: at a grapple of -3, I'm pretty sure anyone can outgrapple this thing. Of course, you have to grab it first, and it has Flyby Attack, a 100-foot fly speed, and a touch AC of 14 (meaning you need to roll an 11+ to grab it in the first place).
    Ankheg: +12 grapple. Gotta be enlarged to even stand a chance, and then it has a higher score.
    Juvenile Arrowhawk: another monster I've never seen, but it has a ranged attack and a fly speed. Grappling is totally irrelevant and useless.
    Assassin Vine: I had a low-level rogue nearly killed by one of these once. Grapple of +12, Constrict, etc. gotta be enlarged to even stand a chance.
    Wyrmlings: you can grapple these, I guess... except they have a fly speed and a breath weapon to strafe with.
    Centaur: grapple of +12 again, and just hope there's only 1, a full attack from this thing will destroy your grappling, AC-12 (no DEX) ass.
    Cockatrice: never seen it used (probably because of the petrification). It does have a fly speed, though.
    Derro: SLAs, sneakiness, Darkness at will. good to grapple if you can catch them; odds are you get hit by SLAs and poisoned bolts first.
    Deinonychus: grapple of +7. Finally, something you can *approximately* match in a grapple without Enlarge.
    Dire Ape: grapple of +13. Bad idea.
    Dire Wolf: grapple of +15!
    Doppelganger: grapple of +5, but *killing* one of these things? It's easy. *Discovering* them, now... that's the big part More of a social challenge than a combat one.
    Dryad: you're going to punch a Dryad in the face? What are you, some kind of jerk? (If you are, it's grappleable, but it has SLAs a-plenty.)
    Giant Eagle: Fly Speed, Flyby Attack, and a +12 Grapple to boot! You lose.
    Earth Elemental, Medium: you win this one.
    Ethereal Filcher: uh, wtf? But... it just pops back to the ethereal plane I guess.
    Ethereal Marauder: same. Can't hold it. Pops in, hits, pops back.
    Ettercap: if you can get past the webs, sure. But at that point it's feeble for anyone.
    Fire Elemental, medium: you don't want to grab a fire elemental.
    Formian Warrior: Formians don't freaking count. But if they did, you could grapple it.
    Violet Fungus: Again, wtf? The poison is the real threat here. You shouldn't get close.
    Ghast: you get to make multiple saves against Stench and paralysis! Whee! Hang back and let people with bows take this one.
    Giant Ant, Queen: +10. Acid Sting. Doesn't count, though (who the hell has their level 2/3 party fight giant ants? That's just dumb).
    Giant Preying Mantis: +11, sneaky.
    Giant Wasp: +11, but you've got to be kidding.
    Grick: DR 10/magic. You are screwed until level 4.
    Hell Hound: fire breath, which it can use in a grapple. On the upside, you have Evasion. On the downside, you'll fail like 40% of the time. I suppose grappling it isn't a bad idea.
    Howler: +15, quills, ugh. You lose.
    Lion: +12, Rakes, will likely Pounce you. OTOH, you should grapple it anyway, because wrestling a lion is freaking awesome.
    Werewolf: you'd win, but, DR.

    I'm gonna stop here. I can cover the rest of them if you really want.
    But so far, at level 2/3, the SIGNIFICANT MAJORITY of monsters out there aren't at any disadvantage against the monk's grappling, even when he is enlarged. A good number are even at an advantage. Very few are truly at a disadvantage.
    Meleeing these things is easier. Well, for the members of the party competent in melee, which doesn't include you.

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Draz74's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    I definitely think the most interesting thing in the whole thread was this:

    A class with a Lawful Alignment restriction being represented, by analogy, by one of the most Chaotic characters in all of literature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Diplomacy: manly perfume
    Giacomo proves once again that he is European.

    (Men in the US call their perfume "cologne," if they use it at all. The American connotation around the word "perfume" is "girly," not a very diplomatic thing for a male to wear. )

    ... Anyway, I think both sides in this thread have made a few good points and a lot of empty statements that don't hold up under scrutiny. I don't have time to go through the whole thread with rebuttals or support, but here's a few things that stood out to me.

    Giacomo has proved (mainly by finally posting a build that ousts the Schroedinger Giamonk) that the Monk class can do a number of the things he claims it can. (For example, I always was confused how he managed to spend skill points on UMD and Spellcraft. Now I have my answer: by ignoring Balance, Jump, Climb, and Escape Artist, which I always considered an important part of the Monk's skill set, and by having a relatively high Intelligence, which I always considered a dump stat for the Monk.)

    Giacomo's build is good enough to demonstrate that a Monk character can be a viable contribution to an adventuring party in a non-optimized (e.g. Core Only) environment, where the DM isn't trying too hard to challenge the players. It's still the weakest class in Core IMO, but anyone who says the Monk is actually useless is either referring to a more-optimized campaign, or is heavily exaggerating. (But that was my opinion anyway. The Giamonk has really done nothing to change it.)

    Anyone posting counterarguments using non-Core material is really undermining their own credibility within the limits of discussion that Giacomo is trying to hold to here. Sorry, SamTheCleric. I'd rather play your Rogue than the Giamonk, but all the same, you haven't managed to outdo the Monk as a Core-Only Unarmed Damage-dealing machine. (Not that doing more unarmed damage than everyone else is as important as Giacomo seems to believe.)

    Oh, and Chronos, most things don't have any ranks in Balance. And they still don't get beaten by Level 1 Wizards (if their CR is, say, 4 or higher) or Level 1 Commoner Children With Marbles. That argument doesn't hold water at all.

    @Giacomo:
    Likewise, you really undermined two of your own arguments. The first was when you claimed that the Monk wasn't any more MAD than anyone else ... and then you posted a sample build that had no ability scores above 14 at Level 1. Starting with 18's might be overrated, but the fact remains that most builds can afford (with 28-point buy) to have at least a 16 in their primary ability score to start out. Wizards and Druids can even afford an 18. The fact that you had to have four 14's proves the Monk's MAD weakness quite soundly.

    The second was your Oberoni Fallacy relating to Wild Shape. You essentially said something like, "Wild Shape isn't actually broken, because it's so broken that no DM would allow it to continue existing." (I know there was some sarcasm going on here, and that part of your actual intent was actually to imply that the double standard between Polymorph and Wild Shape is ridiculous. And I agree; as DM, I would certainly nerf Wild Shape just as much as I would nerf Polymorph. But some DMs truly don't agree, sadly, and will be quite happy to ban Polymorph and allow Wild Shape. Others just allow Polymorph anyway, and the Druid will still be able to out-unarmed-fight your Giamonk, because of other factors and the fact that Polymorph items are very expensive. Still other DMs will nerf both Polymorph and Wild Shape in a reasonable way, e.g. the Shapeshifter Druid variant in the PHB II, and the Druid will still out-claw and out-grapple the Giamonk.)

    Also, I don't think you've adequately addressed the point that many DMs won't allow masterwork items of every skill, especially UMD. The rules leave this option open, but they don't explicitly say, "You can find tools of this sort for every skill in the game."

    And relating to both of the previous paragraphs ... if your DM is really that much of a slave to the RAW, then the Monk actually is a very strong class. All he has to do is Diplomance his way to victory over everybody except Bards.

    I also think Solo's list of CR 10 monsters -- which someone should expand, for completeness -- does a good job of showing that the Giamonk really is not that good of a grappler, at mid-levels and up.

    Plus, in the last appearance I know of (dark knight returns) the Joker has the last laugh...

    - Giacomo
    Appeal is in the works. We shall see what happens, come July. Somehow I doubt the Joker will vanquish The Dark Knight this time. (Might have something to do with the way his actor is dead and thus his potential for appearing in a sequel is pretty well shot.)
    Last edited by Draz74; 2008-05-17 at 02:26 PM.
    You can call me Draz.
    Trophies:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Also of note:

    I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
    ... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.

  17. - Top - End - #107
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    warmachine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Reading, England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    I tell ya. I'm not going to run some of those masterwork items past my DM, especially the wires.
    Matthew Greet
    My purpose in life is to play games.

  18. - Top - End - #108
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamTheCleric's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    Wait, Batman the factotum, and Nightwing the rogue...
    This needs to be done.

  19. - Top - End - #109
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Illiterate Scribe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Dat Shoggoth

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    We have something good here. Something VERY good. I propose we rename Batman Wizards to God wizards.
    Already exists. God-wizards are Treantmonklvl20's (the idea of such a build makes me weep) creation; an alternate view of the LogicNinja classic, with, in my opinion, a bit too much of a fetish for summons.

    We can't yet collapse Batman Wizards into the Cindy/Tipzard nightmare, with it's nigh-invulnerability, so I'm stumped.

  20. - Top - End - #110

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Indeed. Anyone up for making a Joker Psion, a poisonous Succubus druid and seductress, and a fat, small, tux wearing diplomancer? Oh, and a masterful Thief of some kind, female.

    Edit: Hmm...wizard names...How about Martian Manhunter? Franklin Richards? Doctor Strange?
    Last edited by Azerian Kelimon; 2008-05-17 at 02:19 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #111
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Lion: +12, Rakes, will likely Pounce you. OTOH, you should grapple it anyway, because wrestling a lion is freaking awesome.
    Just be sure to have a car nearby, right?

  22. - Top - End - #112
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Scintillatus's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    IHOP.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    The only thing I have learned from this thread is that I really need to get Dungeonscape.
    If you're wondering how PC's eat and breathe, and other science facts
    Repeat to yourself "It's just a game, I should really just relax!"

  23. - Top - End - #113

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Then, good has come out of this. Because Penetrating Strike and Factotum are freakin' awesome.

    And Dungeoncrasher is too, but less so.

  24. - Top - End - #114
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Illiterate Scribe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Dat Shoggoth

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Scintillatus View Post
    The only thing I have learned from this thread is that I really need to get Dungeonscape.
    While I do not wish to assume an unwarranted proxy status, I am sure that I can reliably say that Rich Burlew approves this message.

  25. - Top - End - #115
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamTheCleric's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74
    Anyone posting counterarguments using non-Core material is really undermining their own credibility within the limits of discussion that Giacomo is trying to hold to here. Sorry, SamTheCleric. I'd rather play your Rogue than the Giamonk, but all the same, you haven't managed to outdo the Monk as a Core-Only Unarmed Damage-dealing machine. (Not that doing more unarmed damage than everyone else is as important as Giacomo seems to believe.)
    I'm not saying I'd play it... or that its in any way optimized (what rogue spends their feats on unarmed combat?!)... I just wanted to show that the Giamonk isn't a monk build. It's an Use Magic Device build.

    If I -really- wanted to make a core-only rogue, he'd look a lot different.

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Renegade Paladin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Indiana
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Anyway... Giacomo, it's possible to build a viable monk, but... this isn't it. First, I'm sorry, you passed up Stunning Fist; the choices for getting it are either first level monk or +8 BAB. Guess which one's steeper? Even with Improved Grapple, the monk falls massively behind even full BAB classes in the grappling department fairly rapidly, and even further behind monsters. For instance, let me take this barbarian, who I have played from level one without a set build strategy (that is, he's a fully organic character) and compare to your level 15 point, since that's where he's at right now.

    Grapple. The main part of your build. His grapple modifier is higher than yours. You enlarge yourself? He rages; it's now even more. You bust out divine power? He busts out divine power and righteous might, thanks to runescarred berserker. Your purpose-built grapple monk is outclassed in this area on every level of buffing.

    Stunning Fist. By this point, you've gotten Stunning Fist by taking the feat the hard way. Great. Rraskinar here has to roll a natural 1 to fail the save against it. Great going there, champ.

    Use Magic Device. He doesn't have it, it's true. He doesn't need it for buffs, though, thanks to his runescars. Even discounting that, the magic devices you have to use aren't the sort that can stop him.

    Attack Bonus. Ow, man. Just ow. His attack bonus for his highest attack is a good eleven points higher when he's raging, which, barring some sort of effect forcing him to end his rage, is the only way he fights anything. He also has Power Attack. This is not a good combination for you.

    Damage. Average damage for your monk is 46 when fully buffed. Great; Rraskinar is busting out upwards of 50 himself thanks to Power Attack with just rage (and his attack bonus is high enough to power attack for seven or eight while raging and still reliably hit), and it rushes up to near a hundred when he buffs himself. Unlike your monk, most of his damage is in static bonuses, so it's a lot more reliable than your mass of dice.

    Hit Points. Yeah... He can one-hit the Giamonk all day long. And throw his body across the room just for the heck of it, thanks to the brutal surge weapon property, but that's just gravy.

    Armor Class. You know, given that he's a barbarian, you'd expect your AC to be a lot higher than his, relatively speaking, than it actually is. As it stands, he's actually harder to hit, due to the cloak of displacement.

    Special Attacks. We've already covered grappling, but let's get into other things. The brutal surge weapon property allows him to initiate a bull rush on a creature he hits; the target is pushed back as far as the check allows, but he doesn't have to follow. His Bull Rush modifier is a lot higher than the monk's. The Wolf Berserker feat gives him +4 to trip attempts, and to resist being tripped. (It also qualifies him for Improved Trip, but that'll be 18th level.) So not only does he stand a fair chance of tripping the monk should he care to try, but it'll be very hard for the monk to return the favor. Your monk has Improved Disarm, which is handy, but good luck getting that axe from him; he's stronger, has higher BAB, and it's a two-handed weapon.

    I think that about covers all the basics, and I'm comparing a totally non-optimized organic build.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  27. - Top - End - #117

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    And if we wanted the cheese...

    Hell, I keep playing my 'totum but actually care about equipment, and Sam dives for Penetrating strike and ambush feats.

    And we use THIS THEME.

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamTheCleric's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Wow, I'm not very bright. I completely skipped over the fact that Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick aren't core (see how quickly the game changes when you don't have those kind of restrictions? I didn't even notice!)

    So, those two feats need to be replaced... so my unarmed damage becomes 1d3+1d6+2 (7.5 average) vs 2d8+3 (12 average). A much bigger gap now.

    But I have two open feats... To the batcave!

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    This has probably been said before but didn't Chosen_of_Vecna tell us about a little feat that renders spot obselete?
    Mindsight or something.

    Should we do a Cindy vs. Sir Giacomo's Monk battle?
    Actually Chosen of Vecna's wizards might be better...

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Illiterate Scribe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Dat Shoggoth

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    GoC: yes, but you need telepathy to get it. Gotta be a ghostwise halfling, then, or a Hellbred (?).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •