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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Solo's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses.

    They laughed at the Wright brothers. They laughed at Columbus. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
    -teh interweb

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    You deducted that all one sentence?
    Some people know me better than you do.

    So then why the hell have we reached 9 pages in a day? If people
    Er, yes?

    And the fact that he's been doing that for the last 9 pages, as well as changing his avatar specifically to mock Giacomo. There are boundaries. I can think of a whole lot of things to put what I say in a humourous way. Except that, eventually, that kind of attitude will lead to flaming and a lock.
    If you're referring to the Epic Fail Black Belt turning out to be Giacomo, please remember that before that, my avatar was Epic Fail Black Mage, and we all know who the Black Mage represents.

    Seriously, if you really think I did it just to mock Giacomo, you must also logically conclude that I was mocking myself earlier.

    The entire joke consisted of my Black Mage avatar being replaced by a mystery Monk, and that Monk turning out to be Sir Giacomo.

    Heck, Giacomo told me he found it amusing. So why are you getting all worked up over it?
    Last edited by Solo; 2008-05-18 at 09:25 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne0 View Post
    So then why the hell have we reached 9 pages in a day?
    Mkay, imaginary poll time. Who here enjoys and appreciates discussing monks?

    I say nay.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Behold! The Epic Black Mage has returned to his rightful thrown, atop a mountain of dead enemies and the broken bodies of all those who would oppose his stabbity reign of terror!

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    Mkay, imaginary poll time. Who here enjoys and appreciates discussing monks?

    I say nay.
    I like monkish beer. Does that count ?
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  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    In fact, Ne0, I don't believe that we had any moderation-worthy action, or even much disagreement except in the form of the traditional, playful (sorta), rivalry with Giacomo in this thread, until you showed up and started telling people to 'get over themselves'.

    Anyway, now that Gia has finished his guide, perhaps he will have a little more time. I suggest that we seriously set up the PbP that we've been agitating for.

    Solo can demonstrate that Ozymandias works as he says (again).

    We can wonder at the awesome epic power of the Joker monk.

    And I can seek to redeem the Incarnate in everyone's eyes.

    Thoughts?

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    I'm amazed we made it this far without anything disagreeable, to be honest.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    I'm amazed we made it this far without anything disagreeable, to be honest.
    It depends on how well you understand that this is in humor, to be honest. I can see some of it being construed as uncivil.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Wrong. Illegal targets fizzle spells. Reread section on "holding a charge". It doesn't mention an illegal target. Any touch will trigger it. Yeah.

    Meaning actually that since a wizard at the low level he gets his touch spells will trigger them immediately because he touches the ground. Hmmm. You probably are alone in your interpretation here.
    "Touch" actually means "touch attack".
    The wizard will only discharge the spell if he walks on the ground with his hands, since they would be the appendage holding the charge.

    If you touch anything with the appendage holding the charge the spell will discharge without requiring you to make a touch attack, which should be clear from the description:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Holding the Charge: ... If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.
    Other than that (and the assumptions made during your shopping spree, which are subject to debate) I must commend you for generally abiding by the RAW and learning from previous debates.
    (This is certainly not meant in any condescending way, so please do not read it like that. It is merely refreshing to have someone with a minority view, who is also capable of adjusting, so these monk threads at least evolve just a little over time.)
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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    The conclusion of this thread is, on a forum where religious and political discussions are forbidden, people have found a substitute.
    Also, uncle Tzeentch approves of this thread.
    My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
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  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    *Jumps in from work*

    Well, Illiterate Scribe and Solo, what about the following: Solo does a 28-pt-buy Ozymandias of a level he chooses, complete with spells and then I'll comment on that how the Joker would try to beat him. And how both would contribute in a party (with Ozymandias replacing the wizard and the Joker replacing the Rogue).
    The problem with PvP that I encountered so far is:
    - the setting can tend to favour one or the other class, so it is difficult to conclude anything from it, in particular for seeing whether it is strong or not
    - the duel can take ages. My monk duel vs Reel on Love's druid took weeks until Jack Mann (the DM) had to give up due to real life worlkload.
    The CR 20 challenge of Talic, after months of posts, made it only into the first viable encounter without proving anything about class variablity (my personal opinion is still how anyone could ever expect the INT 6 barbarian to have any chance apart from some occasional full attacks to show it's better than the monk, but that's just my 5 cent on the overall highly entertaining play thread).

    No, post a sorcerer, Solo, and then we can discuss.

    Zanatos777 made already a good start with a level 10 grey elf wizard.here.
    Sorry to Zanatos777, that I so far did not answer to that.
    It is a good build - but it would be highly vulnerable to the Joker monk.
    The Joker at that level has an Initiative mod of +7 vs the +2 of that wizard.
    That wizard (actually depending on its familiar, but likely wlll not help much here) has great difficulty to even see the monk charging him from up to 90ft away (flight partial charge, or 60ft away without flight. Note that that monk can reach a wizard flying in a dungeon up to 30ft high with jump). Once in a grapple, the fight is over.
    The monk would thus have suprise round (partial charge, grapple). Then a full round attack of 3 grapple checks which would be used to pin. That would be the end.

    Now, what that wizard CAN do is stay outside groundling's reach by flying quite high and hope that joker monk has no potion of flying left over (in the no-partial-charge-wand world). However, that way he would never even spot the hiding monk down on the ground - so a draw...until the wizard needs to rest...

    - Giacomo

    *Jumps back to work*
    Last edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-06-14 at 02:36 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by M0rt View Post
    The conclusion of this thread is, on a forum where religious and political discussions are forbidden, people have found a substitute.
    Also, uncle Tzeentch approves of this thread.
    Please don't tell me the Monk is Crystal Dragon Jesus

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks


    No, post a sorcerer, Solo, and then we can discuss.
    Just when I coaxed my Chinese internet connection to allow me access to a porn site...

    Edit: Help! TTW killed me!
    Last edited by Solo; 2008-05-18 at 09:58 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    Please don't tell me the Monk is Crystal Dragon Jesus
    No, not really. Instead, he's something everyone is tired of arguing about, yet they keep discussing it. So, just like religion and politics, as those are 100% forbidden here.
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Silvanos View Post
    The wizard will only discharge the spell if he walks on the ground with his hands, since they would be the appendage holding the charge.

    If you touch anything with the appendage holding the charge the spell will discharge without requiring you to make a touch attack, which should be clear from the description:



    Other than that (and the assumptions made during your shopping spree, which are subject to debate) I must commend you for generally abiding by the RAW and learning from previous debates.
    (This is certainly not meant in any condescending way, so please do not read it like that. It is merely refreshing to have someone with a minority view, who is also capable of adjusting, so these monk threads at least evolve just a little over time.)
    Hi, Lord Silvanos.

    Thanks for also jumping in. So, by that ruling the monk simply has to handle the doors etc. with his feet...that's what I'd call kick-in-door kind of play!*

    Hope this thread will reveal more and more about what the monk can do.

    - Giacomo

    *EDIT: just noticed a great boon - if only the hands discharge the touch spell, the monk could actually attack with his feet all the time unil he sees the time has come for the spell to discharge...Great!
    Last edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-05-18 at 09:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by M0rt View Post
    No, not really. Instead, he's something everyone is tired of arguing about, yet they keep discussing it. So, just like religion and politics, as those are 100% forbidden here.
    Aha! So do you agree people don't enjoy discussing monks?

  17. - Top - End - #287
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Thanks for also jumping in. So, by that ruling the monk simply has to handle the doors etc. with his feet...that's what I'd call kick-in-door kind of play!*
    Alternately, he could just use the hand that isn't holding the charged spell.
    Or is he holding tight to his wand of Enlarge Person with his other hand?

  18. - Top - End - #288
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    *Jumps in from work*

    Well, Illiterate Scribe and Solo, what about the following: Solo does a 28-pt-buy Ozymandias of a level he chooses, complete with spells and then I'll comment on that how the Joker would try to beat him. And how both would contribute in a party (with Ozymandias replacing the wizard and the Joker replacing the Rogue).
    The problem with PvP that I encountered so far is ...
    No PvP, in my opinion - it creates unnatural monstrosities.

    How would y'all like that I ran, say, 'Sinister Spire' (shortest adventure - 60 pages for the whole thing), with a Joker and Ozymandias (maybe the proto-horizon tripper, as well, for testing)?

    I can keep myself neutral, and it would allow as close to a 'field test' of your build as we can easily get - thus showing the practical ramifications of such a character. Thoughts?

  19. - Top - End - #289
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    Aha! So do you agree people don't enjoy discussing monks?
    I know I don't. But monk threads look exactly like situations where everybody is all "Ugh, not politics again" and two minutes later they're all about which party or politician is better.
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  20. - Top - End - #290
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by M0rt View Post
    I know I don't. But monk threads look exactly like situations where everybody is all "Ugh, not politics again" and two minutes later they're all about which party or politician is better.
    My point exactly. >_>"
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Yes, great going. Unfortunately at that level (which I also pointed out in my guide. Read it guys, READ IT!), the monk can do x numbe of attacks and actually force your babarian to do FIVE fort saves in one hit, if he so wishes. All of a sudden you sweat a bit more not to roll that "1". And what is worse: the next round there will be 4 more saves coming. And so on. And so on.
    You can only make one Stunning Fist attempt per round regardless of the number of your attacks (I think there are feats that change this - but not in the core), so you need to really make sure that you hit your target and it fails it's saving throw to make it reliable strategy. Also you have to deal damage with your attacks to make them save - so high to-hit, damage and save DC are required for good use of Stunning Fist.


    Otherwise, it just gets beaten to a pulp by the fists turned magic weapon, since the monk has a higher attack bonus while the Allip will only hit him with a 45% chance and deal WIS damage, of which the monk happens to have quite a few points. Next.
    You should note that every time allip hits he will reduce your AC and that against incorporeal creatures you have 50% miss chance unless you are using Ghosttouched weapons.

    So you are admitting your build is ineffective at levels below 9. That's nearly half of the game, right there.
    Usually this will be more than 50% of the game, and in some cases it will be more than 100%.

  22. - Top - End - #292
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    You can only make one Stunning Fist attempt per round regardless of the number of your attacks (I think there are feats that change this - but not in the core), so you need to really make sure that you hit your target and it fails it's saving throw to make it reliable strategy. Also you have to deal damage with your attacks to make them save - so high to-hit, damage and save DC are required for good use of Stunning Fist.
    What I meant was use in one attack at level 15: stunning fist, quivering palm, a touch attack, coat the hand with poison AND force a massive save damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    You should note that every time allip hits he will reduce your AC and that against incorporeal creatures you have 50% miss chance unless you are using Ghosttouched weapons.
    Yes, true. The AC will be reduced by a grand 2. That is not going to decide that combat, I think. Everytime it tries to get near the enlarged Joker monk, it receives two attacks: the AoO and the readied attack. With a shillelagh staff (doing 3d6+4 damage with each hit).

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    Usually this will be more than 50% of the game, and in some cases it will be more than 100%.
    I have no idea what this or the post it refers to refer to. Or put differently: do you believe at levels 1-9 the monk I built will be useless?

    @Illiterate Scribe: an adventure with a Solorcerer and the Joker? Two-man party? Is it core? What level is it for?
    It definitely sounds interesting.

    - Giacomo
    Last edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-05-18 at 10:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne0 View Post
    My point exactly. >_>"
    I considered that such people do indeed dislike the topic at hand, but I see what you mean. I still should try making a poll about how many people dislike some list of commonly occuring topics.

  24. - Top - End - #294
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks


    How would y'all like that I ran, say, 'Sinister Spire' (shortest adventure - 60 pages for the whole thing), with a Joker and Ozymandias (maybe the proto-horizon tripper, as well, for testing)?
    Sure. Is it ECL 10?

    Ozymandias

    Level 10

    Stats:
    STR 8
    DEX 12 (14)
    CON 12 (14)
    INT 10
    WIS 10
    CHA 20 (22)

    Hp: 46.5
    AB: +4 melee, +7 ranged

    Initiative: +6

    Saves:
    Fort 5
    Ref 4
    Will 5

    Skills:

    Max K. Arcana (13), Spellcraft (15), and Concentration (15)

    Items: Cloak of Charisma, Gloves of Dexterity Amulet of Health both +2, 4,000 each
    Scroll: Solid Fogx2, Polymorphx1, 700 each, Displacementx2, 375 each Freedom of Movement x2 1000 each

    Total GP: 16150 (is this within WBL? I can't check)

    Feats: Heighten Spell (or Extend Spell), Spell Focus Transmutation, Spell Focus Necromancy (or GSF Transmuaton), Improved Initiative, Empower Spell

    Spells (6/6/6/6/5/3)

    0:

    Ghost Sound
    Prestidigitation
    Detect Poison
    Detect Magic
    Read Magic
    Message
    Mage Hand
    Open/Close

    1:
    Mage Armor
    Magic Missile
    Ray of Enfeeblement
    Color Spray
    True Strike

    2:
    Glitterdust
    Invisibility
    Alter Self
    Mirror Image

    3:
    Ray of Exhaustion
    Dispel Magic
    Phantom Steed

    4:
    Dimension Door
    Enervation

    5:
    Baleful Polymorph
    Last edited by Solo; 2008-05-18 at 10:40 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #295
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Solo, your Ranged attack is 7, not 5. 5 BAB +2 dex mod, while melee is (as you correctly put) 5 BAB -1 str mod.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    @Illiterate Scribe: an adventure with a Solorcerer and the Joker? Two-man party? Is it core? What level is it for?
    It definitely sounds interesting.

    - Giacomo
    Basically core (some Faerunite monsters,), level 5 (although depending on numbers, that might go up to 6 - I also know that 5 is a horrible level for both Sorcs and Jokers). Some puzzles, some tactical encounters, some monsters. I'd have to read through, but I'm fairly sure that it would be alright. Watch this space.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    That's what... DC 23 Baleful Polymorph? (10+5 [Level]+6[Cha]+1[SF]+1[GSF])... Fort save or be a bunny!

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Well, Solo...where is the overland flight gone? Seriously, you should get that to have a long-lasting defense available.

    Plus, we apparently have to tone it down to level 5.

    And since it's a one-shot adventure, likely our items with charges have only a fifth of the charges, plus the scrolls are 5x as expensive.

    Hmmm...this could be interesting. To adventure at the side of the famed Solo!



    - Giacomo

    Ps: I also strongly advise you to get the Sorcerer some way of being continuously stealthy (boots of elvenkind and the cloak); otherwise the two of us will run into trouble quite quickly.
    Last edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-05-18 at 10:37 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #299
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Well, Solo...where is the overland flight gone? Seriously, you should get that to have a long-lasting defense available.

    Plus, we apparently have to tone it down to level 5.

    And since it's a one-shot adventure, likely our items with charges have only a fifth of the charges, plus the scrolls are 5x as expensive.

    Hmmm...this could be interesting. To adventure at the side of the famed Solo!



    - Giacomo
    To be brutally honest, the lure of forcing the two of you to work together is no inconsiderable part of this.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Well, Solo...where is the overland flight gone? Seriously, you should get that to have a long-lasting defense available.
    Read the text of Phantom Steed.


    So, IS, what level are you going to have us be?
    Last edited by Solo; 2008-05-18 at 10:39 AM.

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