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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Rutee View Post
    And they would ignore the crusader because...?
    Well, they wouldn't, naturally, but if your grappling is dominating enough to reliably drag an enemy around and force AoOs said enemy probably is not going to be free to try and take a shot at the Crusader. His friends might, if they're not more interested in going after the guy with no Dex bonus and no threatened spaces.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    The problem I have with the Monk isn't that it's underpowered, it's that the class doesn't serve a purpose in a party. It is designed to survive. Look at the class features. Situational immunities, good saves, the more important stats also affecting saves, moderate HD, fast movement, Dimension Door, the skill list. The class is able to survive and escape mostly anything. The problem is, that role is nigh-useless in a party enviroment, which is the reason Giacomo no longer touts it.The monk survives very well, but survival isn't enough. You have to contribute, which is why Giacomo has to go through so much convoluted UMD to even try to make it viable. He grapples(a tactic which even full BAB, high Str Fighters with feats to burn ignore), uses a cross-class skill (which burns through his WBL faster than he gains it), and relys on getting several rounds of buffing in before his opponents notice him(something it is impossible to rely on in my experience). Why? Because the monk should be a NPC class. Rename it "Explorer" or something, take away FoB, and you suddenly have a messenger. And I doubt anyone would even be having this discussion.
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Isn't there a 50% hit chance to strike you with any melee attack attempted on the grappled foe, if you're going to try that?

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Rutee View Post
    Isn't there a 50% hit chance to strike you with any melee attack attempted on the grappled foe, if you're going to try that?
    Thats only on ranged attacks into a grapple.
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Spiffy. I thought you couldn't drag people around like that unless you were utterly dominating the Grapple though, with a major advantage? A major advantage that one of the above posters is demonstrating is unlikely (Via posting grapple and to-hit mods..)

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Rutee View Post
    Spiffy. I thought you couldn't drag people around like that unless you were utterly dominating the Grapple though, with a major advantage? A major advantage that one of the above posters is demonstrating is unlikely (Via posting grapple and to-hit mods..)
    If the monk were to attempt 2 times to do this, he would have a 1 in 2 chance of succeeding (assuming his opponent has about +3 to his grapple mod). Each move action only provokes one time, so of this, the monk would cause 1 AoO to be provoked per round, just over half the time.

    The same could be accomplished more reliably with the spell Snake's Swiftness.
    Last edited by Talic; 2008-05-20 at 01:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Their primary attacks are entirely enough due to touch attack for grapple tactics.
    And I showed many ways to enhance the unarmed strike to produce 300 damage or so per round at level 16. Or was it 15? Do not remember right now.
    IF you hit with all atacks, which are at -4 penalty. Where did you get the idea that in grapple you need to hit only touch AC? It only says that you can make an attack against the opponent you're grappling at a -4 penalty.
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by M0rt View Post
    The conclusion of this thread is, on a forum where religious and political discussions are forbidden, people have found a substitute.
    Also, uncle Tzeentch approves of this thread.
    Sigged.

    Incidentally, Sir Giacomo is right about one thing at least, it is a little Hypocritical of people to complain about his use of magical items when all the classes do alot of it.
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    Default FoB in a grapple.

    Interpreting the list of actions in a grapple to be all exhaustive would not only spell trouble for martial adepts, who would not be able to use maneuvers in a grapple (not even those designed to be used in a grapple), but it would also be contradicting itself, since speaking does not appear on the list.

    So under a very literal interpretation of RAW the answers to the following questions would be:

    Q: Can FoB grant an extra grapple action?
    A: No.

    Q: Can Haste-effects grant an extra grapple action?
    A: No.

    Q: Can I initiate Maneuvers in a Grapple?
    A: No.

    Q: Can I speak while grappling?
    A: Only if you are casting a spell.

    However, the following piece of text from the Rules Compendium suggests that full-round actions can be used in a grapple.

    Quote Originally Posted by RC - page 60
    A creature that has a high enough base attack bonus can use a fullround action to make a grapple check for every extra attack its base attack bonus would allow it if it were a character. That means such a creature can make two grapple checks if its base attack bonus is +6 to +10, three if +11 to +15, and four if +16 or higher.
    I do not think it is much of a stretch to allow any extra attacks from the full-round action to also be included, such as those allowed by Haste-effects or FoB.

    Of course, grapple checks are still not derived directly from attacks as seen by the treatment of creatures with natural weapons. Regardless of the number of natural weapon attacks allowed in a full round action the number of grapple checks would still be determined by BAB, so stretching the rules to include extra attacks would emphasize the inconsistent treatment of attacks and natural attacks, but I digress.

    I think ideally the RAW should have made greater allowance for other actions in a grapple and I think ideally the answer would have been:

    Q: Can FoB grant an extra grapple action?
    A: Yes.

    Q: Can Haste-effects grant an extra grapple action?
    A: Yes.

    Q: Can I initiate Maneuvers in a Grapple?
    A: Yes, as long as they do not require movement.

    Q: Can I speak while grappling?
    A: Yes.

    (The normal conditions and restrictions of grapple still apply)

    RAI might even agree.
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    Sigged.

    Incidentally, Sir Giacomo is right about one thing at least, it is a little Hypocritical of people to complain about his use of magical items when all the classes do alot of it.
    We're not complaining about the mere use of magical items, we're complaining about the use of magical items in a way that breaks WLB.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    Sigged.

    Incidentally, Sir Giacomo is right about one thing at least, it is a little Hypocritical of people to complain about his use of magical items when all the classes do alot of it.
    No, that's precisely the point. How is a monk just as good as all the other classes when everyone can do that. It's beneficial to everyone equally, so take that away and the monk comes out on the bottom again.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    And before I go to bed at long last now, @Fenix of Doom. You want even MORE hard numbers than I already provided in the most detailed level-by-level guide of any character class on these boards yet?
    Well...no. I left the wand budget flexible for a reason: to offer it plenty of room for interpretation for plenty of tactics that will depend on the campaign and fellow pcs entirely.
    What I DID show already several times was, that by level 10, the Joker monk will have been able to cast a 1st level spell a thousand times (and yes, Hide from Animals can also be put inside a wand and can help the whole group clearing an animal encounter)
    A 2nd level spell? Over 150 times.
    Number of encounters up to level 10? 140.
    - Giacomo
    Yes, yes I do want more hard numbers than you've provided so far(otherwise I wouldn't have asked for them), do you want to know why? Because your not convincing a lot of people with what you wrote so far.
    And that's not because everybody else is stubborn, it's because your guide isn't all that great, yep, face it, it's lacking, you simply assumed to much, you gave no backup options if, for example, the DM doesn't allow MW item for every skill, what do you do?
    Most other guides do note what is good but might not be allowed, your guide just assumes every one can play with you as DM, it's true that for a theoretical discussion following strict RAW is a good idea, but for practical advise it is not.

    As if that wasn't enough all you do is point back at the guide by which people weren't convinced in the first place, do you really think that if they read it 5 times they will be? I've seen you state the number of wand uses you have be level 10, but how did you get that number again, I thought it was all the gold you reserved for expendable items up to level 10.(if I'm wrong please correct me)
    Now this doesn't prove the following:
    1)that this build is in any way viable before level 10, it could be but it isn't proven.
    2) that if you use an alternative such as a potion or a scroll of a higher level wand you will still viable.
    Your post quoted above suggests to me that it isn't possible, because if you spend money on potions first, then on level 1 wands it seems to me that you won't have enough money to get a level 2 wand, I can't be sure however, because you gave so little hard numbers, like how often you plan on using your items.

    Now feel free to ignore my advise and keep repeating yourself until the end of time, I don't care, I'm just trying to get a useful discussion started.

    Edit: regarding the hide form animals.
    Your argument states nothing new, I now hide form animals can be put into a wand, what I want to know is how do you survive until you used it on your whole party.
    Let's say you have a party of 5 at level 3, you want to use HFA to avoid an encounter in which neither side has a surprise round.
    your Use Magic Device is +9(or 7 if MW item is not allowed), wand DC is 20, you need 5 successful castings, you need an 11+ so you have 50% chance of success, that means that on average you need 10 rounds to do this, you could be done in 5, it could take 20, but on average you need 10 rounds, in 10 rounds, the rest of the party could probably finished the encounter the normal way as well.
    Last edited by Fenix_of_Doom; 2008-05-20 at 04:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Yeah, but monk without this UMD heavy build will suck 99% of the time, whereas for a Shock Trooper/Karmic Strike/Spiked Chain/Whatsnot Fighter a magic weapon isn't the only thing he relies on...
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    I'm not claiming that monks are bad. I'm saying that they're worse at everything than someone else. Something that you yourself implied than with your 80% comment
    ...... as i belive i have said before, anything i have said relatet to % and classes were to explain why i thought you were wrong, it had nothing to do with monks.

    Now, how about the barbarian, who has a movement of 40, and a better attack bonus and much higher damage output?
    there the monk has to be happy with his still higher speed, better saves and skills, as well as his other tactical options.

    Or perhaps just straight rolls? Fighter will have 2 attacks, and will do 1d3+1d6+5 per hit, with a 66% accuracy. Weighted damage per attack is 6.93 per attack, or 13.86 for each round's 2 attacks.
    Monk will have 3 attacks, for 1d10+4 damage each hit. Average damage per hit of 9.5, with a 34% chance of success. Weighted damage is 3.23 per attack, or 9.69 for his 3 attacks in a round. The fighter has slightly better hp, due to damage die, and is outputting an average of 4.17 damage more per round. Upgrading the monk to Str 18? Lowers the bonus to +2, and changes the average damages to:
    Fighter: Weighted damage 12.35 per round.
    Monk: Weighted damage 12.05 per round.
    for a start i dont think you get to ad your unarmed damage damage to the damage of the armor spike, so it stays at just 1d6+5.

    now if the figher has taken a potion of enlarge, and wasted a feat on weapon specalisation, then his damage would end up at 1d8+7, for a average of 11.5

    assuming 3 points of difference in grapple scores, his first attack would hit 65% of the time, and the second one 40% of the time, that would give a DPR of 12.075

    the monk is also enlarget, and he has taken improved natural attack, ending up with 3d8+5, average 18.5
    he hits tvice at 35%, and one at 10%, for a DPR of 14.8

    That will disappear permanently at level 11, when the fighter gets a bonus attack from BAB. Thus, the monk is not the best at grapple. Even WITH the extra attacks from flurry.
    well, level 11 is also where the monk gets a third attack at full BAB from grapple, and imo just getting the fighter into a grapple is a victory for the monk, since it means he wont be using a 2handet weapon, something that would make him do a lot more damage than his armor spikes can do.

    No, whether that makes his class better is a matter of optimization. If the monk is trying to keep up in grapple, he will have a lower AC. If the monk is trying to keep his saves up, he will have lower AC. Lower AC = greater chance to be hit. Further, the monk will typically have less HP. Further, the fighter will typically have several other feats available (at level 8, after the imp grapple, the human fighter has 6 feats to burn, on other things to boost effectiveness). While the monk may be better than the fighter at some things, he'll be worse at any combat related task. Thus, the monk is a less effective combatant than the fighter.
    yes the figher has a lot more feat, but the monk does get quite a few bonus feats of his own, and can even ignore the prerequisites on them.
    that means he will get the usefull combination of combat reflexes and improved trip.
    yes he will proberly do a bit less damage than a fighter, but as i have said several times before, then its something i belive is compensated by greater speed, better skills and better saves.
    and keeping the saves up wont impair the AC.

    Rogues? Have better skills, evasion, superior damage through sneak attack, and an ability to be unflankable and retain dex to AC. They also have trapfinding. Now, a monk could reliably compete in fighting ability with a rogue. However, the monk will fall behind in scouting (unable to find and remove most traps, including every magical trap in existence), skills (if you thought the monk had a decent list of skills, check out the rogue), and espionage.
    better skills yes, the monk also have evasion, the superior damage of the rogue is very situational, and if first the rogue gets flanked then i think his attackers not getting any bonus is a small comfort.
    and as long as the saves have been kept up, then the monk has some sort of trapfinding skills as well.

    That same monk would have to start the round in full attack range, and make 4 attacks to have a better than 50% chance to land 1. Meanwhile the grappler with the +7 mod will be landing 80.5% of hits. Even assuming that the monk deals twice the damage per hit of the enemy grappler, he will need to make twice as many attacks every round to be even in average damage.
    well when i considder grappling, then its often to deny a enemy some of his damage, by making sure he cant use his weapon, or to force him to stop attacking someone, like fx a rogue or a unbuffed wizard.

    And the SRD? And everywhere else that prices are listed? Mighty widespread mistake, that. When the RAW doesn't agree with you, it's a mistake, now? Heh.
    When the RAW doesnt make sense, then i will start to considder if its a mistake, and someone else did come with the explanation that its proberly cut&paste error from 3.0, where potions of enlarge was more expensive.
    when you also compared it to the price guidelines of potions, then i find enough justification to continue buying my potions at 50 gp.
    When the
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Rutee View Post
    Isn't there a 50% hit chance to strike you with any melee attack attempted on the grappled foe, if you're going to try that?
    Thats only on ranged attacks into a grapple.
    Spells, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    When the RAW doesnt make sense, then i will start to considder if its a mistake, and someone else did come with the explanation that its proberly cut&paste error from 3.0, where potions of enlarge was more expensive.
    when you also compared it to the price guidelines of potions, then i find enough justification to continue buying my potions at 50 gp.
    When the
    Sorry to give succour to the enemy, but I think Khaine's right here; like Sovereign Glue, which apparently can only be made by near-epic casters, it would seem to be a mistake.
    Last edited by Illiterate Scribe; 2008-05-20 at 04:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Yeah, but monk without this UMD heavy build will suck 99% of the time, whereas for a Shock Trooper/Karmic Strike/Spiked Chain/Whatsnot Fighter a magic weapon isn't the only thing he relies on...
    and thats comparing a core-build with one that isnt core....
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    and thats comparing a core-build with one that isnt core....
    Then just power attack... He still outclasses the wandless monk by far...
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    Incidentally, Sir Giacomo is right about one thing at least, it is a little Hypocritical of people to complain about his use of magical items when all the classes do alot of it.
    No, he is wrong about his claim that magical items are what makes a monk great, since, you know, all the classes do a lot of it.

    Anyway. Based on this thread we can certainly conclude that the gonk is ineffective until at the very least level 9, probably level 13, because that's the point where it can reliably get UMD to work. And after that, it has a high likelihood of not being able to finish its own buff sequence before the combat is over. The point is that Vael's monk guide is simply better than this one.

    Furthermore, we can conclude that the WOTC charop board has expressed strong disagreement with pretty much the entire guide. We can all draw our own conclusions about the likelihood that a single person who has made a single public build knows more about D&D than a virtual thinktank that has given us literally hundreds of theoretical and practical optimizations.

    It works like this: a man is driving on the D35 freeway at high speed during nighttime. Then he hears a warning on the radio, that somebody on the freeway is driving in the wrong direction, which is obviously dangerous. The man looks out of the window, thinks for a bit, and calls the radio station on his cell phone. He informs them that their warning is a bit off - there's not just one person driving in the wrong direction, he sees over a hundred people driving in the wrong direction! It's almost as if everybody is... and at that point the phone call is cut off by a crash.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    It works like this: a man is driving on the D35 freeway at high speed during nighttime. Then he hears a warning on the radio, that somebody on the freeway is driving in the wrong direction, which is obviously dangerous. The man looks out of the window, thinks for a bit, and calls the radio station on his cell phone. He informs them that their warning is a bit off - there's not just one person driving in the wrong direction, he sees over a hundred people driving in the wrong direction! It's almost as if everybody is... and at that point the phone call is cut off by a crash.
    Well put. And 100% apliable to this case.
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    No, he is wrong about his claim that magical items are what makes a monk great, since, you know, all the classes do a lot of it.

    Anyway. Based on this thread we can certainly conclude that the gonk is ineffective until at the very least level 9, probably level 13, because that's the point where it can reliably get UMD to work. And after that, it has a high likelihood of not being able to finish its own buff sequence before the combat is over. The point is that Vael's monk guide is simply better than this one.

    Furthermore, we can conclude that the WOTC charop board has expressed strong disagreement with pretty much the entire guide. We can all draw our own conclusions about the likelihood that a single person who has made a single public build knows more about D&D than a virtual thinktank that has given us literally hundreds of theoretical and practical optimizations.

    It works like this: a man is driving on the D35 freeway at high speed during nighttime. Then he hears a warning on the radio, that somebody on the freeway is driving in the wrong direction, which is obviously dangerous. The man looks out of the window, thinks for a bit, and calls the radio station on his cell phone. He informs them that their warning is a bit off - there's not just one person driving in the wrong direction, he sees over a hundred people driving in the wrong direction! It's almost as if everybody is... and at that point the phone call is cut off by a crash.
    tl;dr

    The Giamonk is made from fail. Everyone knows this. Except for you, that is. Now, logically, someone has to be wrong and it sure as hell isn't the overwhelming majority of people who actually know how D&D works. That leaves you, Giacomo. You fail.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    there the monk has to be happy with his still higher speed, better saves and skills, as well as his other tactical options.
    And worse saves, as Fort will likely be behind the barbarian, even if just slightly. As Reflex is the least important of the saves, that gives the monk 1 viable arguing point with saves. As for skills, Barbarians aren't fighters. They get a more competitive skill list, oddly enough. As far as "other tactical options", that is much like Giacomo's monk stance 8 threads ago. When not defined, impossible to critique, and thus, meaningless.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    for a start i dont think you get to ad your unarmed damage damage to the damage of the armor spike, so it stays at just 1d6+5.
    That's why the spikes say "as additional damage". They're added. If you don't think they do, then you are, sadly, wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    now if the figher has taken a potion of enlarge, and wasted a feat on weapon specalisation, then his damage would end up at 1d8+7, for a average of 11.5
    Incorrect conclusion based on flawed premise. Disregarded.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    assuming 3 points of difference in grapple scores, his first attack would hit 65% of the time, and the second one 40% of the time, that would give a DPR of 12.075
    Actually 66% of the time, but who's splitting hairs here? As for DPR, incorrect conclusion based on flawed premise. Disregarded.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    the monk is also enlarget, and he has taken improved natural attack, ending up with 3d8+5, average 18.5
    Assuming an 18 Str? It's nice how you can do that. Please post a list of stats, that, on a 28 point build, show your superior saves, strength, and the like.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    he hits tvice at 35%, and one at 10%, for a DPR of 14.8
    Incorrect conclusion based on flawed premise. Disregarded.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    well, level 11 is also where the monk gets a third attack at full BAB from grapple, and imo just getting the fighter into a grapple is a victory for the monk, since it means he wont be using a 2handet weapon, something that would make him do a lot more damage than his armor spikes can do.
    So, let me get this straight... If the fighter even gets in a grapple, the monk wins, even if the fighter proves more efficient in the grapple, more deadly in the grapple, and defeats the monk in the grapple? All on the grounds that, even if the fighter wins, he gave up an attack form even more valuable than the one he just beat the monk with?? Interesting logic, that.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    yes the figher has a lot more feat, but the monk does get quite a few bonus feats of his own, and can even ignore the prerequisites on them.
    Yes, he gets some feats. Around 5-7 by level 20. The fighter's swinging 11. Eleven options to power up his attack forms. Your argument is not at all dissimilar to me saying, "Yeah, the monk has a good will save, but the fighter gets bonus points into it too." This is an example of "Monk gets something, fighter gets more." Further, the only feat I see that really has a restrictive prerequisite, stunning attack, is next to worthless at higher levels, and only moderately useful at lower levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    that means he will get the usefull combination of combat reflexes and improved trip.
    yes he will proberly do a bit less damage than a fighter, but as i have said several times before, then its something i belive is compensated by greater speed, better skills and better saves.
    All of which make the monk harder to kill, but do not perform the core thing a class needs for parity. The ability to contribute to the party goals. And thus far, in the combat role (subset: grappling), the monk is outperformed by the fighter. You've not brought any figures to the table that were not based on a flawed assumption to begin with.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    and keeping the saves up wont impair the AC.
    Keeping the strength up will impair both, however.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    better skills yes, the monk also have evasion, the superior damage of the rogue is very situational, and if first the rogue gets flanked then i think his attackers not getting any bonus is a small comfort.
    I like how the situational tactic of grappling and stunning is touted so strongly, but the situational ability to sneak attack is "very situational". The main bonus for uncanny dodge is "keeps dex when flat footed", meaning that it's very difficult to deny that basic defense. If the rogue hides and catches something flatfooted, he's got a much easier time hitting it. This is not true of the converse. The superior damage of the rogue, regardless of how you phrase it, is still superior damage. Weapons can further enhance that at higher levels, with damage adding abilities. That's optional however, as the rogue has the monk beat on damage output, and with proper optimization, can even reliably snipe most creatures, providing consistent superior damage, from the light fighter role.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    and as long as the saves have been kept up, then the monk has some sort of trapfinding skills as well.
    What? By walking into the trap blindly and triggering them? How about the Spear trap that makes an attack against your flat-footed AC? Or the pit trap that activates 10 feet behind the trigger? Your party will be really thanking you for your shortfalls when they're taking their long fall.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    well when i considder grappling, then its often to deny a enemy some of his damage, by making sure he cant use his weapon, or to force him to stop attacking someone, like fx a rogue or a unbuffed wizard.
    That's one application of it, true. Removing an enemy from a fight. The fighter just does that better, as he can more reliably grab higher AC enemies with his higher attack bonus.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    When the RAW doesnt make sense, then i will start to considder if its a mistake, and someone else did come with the explanation that its proberly cut&paste error from 3.0, where potions of enlarge was more expensive.
    when you also compared it to the price guidelines of potions, then i find enough justification to continue buying my potions at 50 gp.
    Good for you. Bad if you're trying to be RAW. Which this is. Because if that's a mistake, then I think that the fighter's low base reflex and will saves are a cut and paste error from 3.0, and should actually be good save progression, not bad. That's the thing about assuming it's a mistake without errata saying so. When you do it, you're wrong.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebo_ View Post
    tl;dr

    The Giamonk is made from fail. Everyone knows this. Except for you, that is. Now, logically, someone has to be wrong and it sure as hell isn't the overwhelming majority of people who actually know how D&D works. That leaves you, Giacomo. You fail.
    Well, logically, that's a fallacious appeal ad populum ...

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    So, how shall we name this fallacy? Epic Fail Fallacy? Giacomo Fallacy? Should we vote?
    Common sense is not so common.

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    You make sense in an annoying way.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Well, wait till the results (of the playtest) come in ...

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebo_ View Post
    tl;dr

    The Giamonk is made from fail. Everyone knows this. Except for you, that is.
    And you're saying this to me because...?
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe View Post
    Well, logically, that's a fallacious appeal ad populum ...
    That's what Gene Ray said...
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    And you're saying this to me because...?
    He didn't read your post and thought you were supporting him - or he thought you were the poster above you. (hahaha)

    Anyways may take on it: Batman can buy stuff too, and for every gold used by a Monk to emulate another class's spells and abilities, the Batman is just adding onto his.

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    Default Re: FoB in a grapple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Silvanos View Post
    Interpreting the list of actions in a grapple to be all exhaustive would not only spell trouble for martial adepts, who would not be able to use maneuvers in a grapple (not even those designed to be used in a grapple), but it would also be contradicting itself, since speaking does not appear on the list.

    So under a very literal interpretation of RAW the answers to the following questions would be:

    Q: Can FoB grant an extra grapple action?
    A: No.

    Q: Can Haste-effects grant an extra grapple action?
    A: No.

    Q: Can I initiate Maneuvers in a Grapple?
    A: No.

    Q: Can I speak while grappling?
    A: Only if you are casting a spell.
    This last one seems to be your way of taking it to absurdity. I'm going to cherish this, because it's one of the few times I have where you're wrong. Under the combat section of the SRD states that you can take free actions while performing other actions. It then says you way speak at any time, even if it is not your turn. The grapple text does not contradict that. In fact, in two points, casting (wherein you may use spells with verbal components, which means that by default, you have the capacity to speak), and pinning (where it states that your opponent may render you unable to speak, showing that, before that point, you were not unable to speak), it infers that it's allowed. By not listing it, it shows that it is not an action that is limited by your base attack bonus, as free actions so rarely are.

    By this, it seems that the flurry of blows would work with attacks, wherein you take a -4 to hit and make an attack, as the ability does infer that you can full attack with it, and that is an attack. You could maybe even argue that the grabpple check to deal damage qualifies as an attack. However, other checks, including moving the grapple, pinning, escaping a pin, and the like, don't follow that line of reasoning, and would seem both not allowed by the wording of flurry of blows, nor allowed by the text of grapple.

    Sorry if I get pleasure in this. It's so rare that I have a solid, cogent argument against you, Silvanos.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    And you're saying this to me because...?
    That was bad phrasing on my part. I actually directed it at Giacomo. I was, in fact, agreeing with you.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Although Batman without any items beats Joker without any items any day of the week...
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm da Rogue!
    You make sense in an annoying way.

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