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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks


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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Signmakerens View Post
    Except that doesn't work.
    Escape artist DC 120, hah!

    Well, I was making this rogue/warlock build once just to see how many d6 I could stack on an Eldritch Blast. It deals full damage to walls if you take hammer blast, and it's not that far of a stretch that the Golemstrike spell also lets you sneak attack walls (because hey, it's not like walls get their dexterity mod to their AC). I ended up with some 70-odd dice on the blast, quadruple that if chained and quickened. This is effectively giving you a burrowing speed.
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  3. - Top - End - #783
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    Mage Slayer Test
    Looks interesting.

    I was wondering... would a Tome of Battle build with Action Before Thought, Mind Over Body, and Moment Of Perfect Mind be a good solution to getting sufficiently high saving throws? Perhaps stack on a Lich template (or some other undead template) to gain immunity to mind-affecting stuff.
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  4. - Top - End - #784
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Erm. Probably the part that says a targeted spell requires you to see or touch the target, and the one where Total Concealment is defined as not having line of sight. If he has Total Concealment against you, by definition you cannot see him and cannot select him as a target for a targeted spell. That doesn't stop you from throwing area spells like Glitterdust, Fireball, or the area option of Dispel Magic, tho. Just things like Hold Person which are Target(s): One Creature or similar.
    ...Oops. I can still Dispel the area, maybe getting the bottle in the process (and nuking one of his buffs at the same time), then, if I really cared about his buffs, target one after that.

    But an area save/suck would be better.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    Listen check to hear you buffing:
    0 (People Talking) +1 per 10 feet of distance
    Fixed that for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    and thats if you get a listen check[/i]. Unless you find a rule I havn't seen, you aren't guaranteed a listen check, and even then you can't set encounter distances with them.
    I found that rule for you:

    "Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action."

    I guess we can infer you haven't seen the SRD rules on the Listen skill...

    If we're still talking about buffing in a dungeon (effed if I know, I'm not reading another 17 pages to catch up), doors add +5 DC to the Listen check, and Listen checks are pretty much precisely what triggers combat when there's a door involved.

  6. - Top - End - #786
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    I found that rule for you:

    "Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action."
    Sorry - theres nothing like there is for Spot that says it can set where the Encounter begins. IE Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins

    edit: And yeah, I typoed the distance thing. Even if we accept the premise that Listen can set when encounters begin, on average with no points in the skill, and no WIS bonus, you can hear someone talking through a door, 50' away. Why do we need a high Listen bonus?

    I guess we can infer you haven't seen the SRD rules on the Listen skill...
    Thats pretty close to breaking forum rules, FYI.

    If we're still talking about buffing in a dungeon (effed if I know, I'm not reading another 17 pages to catch up), doors add +5 DC to the Listen check, and Listen checks are pretty much precisely what triggers combat when there's a door involved.
    No, a lot of the time, it's opening the door that triggers combat.
    Last edited by Griffin131; 2008-05-23 at 08:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    Sorry - theres nothing like there is for Spot that says it can set where the Encounter begins. IE Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins
    Er, okay? That doesn't really matter. If you're indoors, and there's an encounter behind the door, both sides roll Listen checks and the one that succeeds becomes aware of the other. It does not, technically, start an encounter if only one side is aware of the other, I guess - but it does mean you can start buffing yourself (of course, this will give the other side more Listen checks to become aware of you).

    It's not a computer game. 90% of D&D reality (such as when to use skills) is left up to common-sense adjudication by the DM. "You may be able to hear if someone is behind a door" is about as common-sense as it gets.

    I'll grant that actual combat begins when the door is opened, assuming only one side hears the other. (If both sides hear the other, you roll initiative and start taking actions in rounds as usual, i.e. combat.)

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    (of course, this will give the other side more Listen checks to become aware of you).
    Pretty trivial checks at that.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Double post, sorry
    Last edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-05-25 at 04:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    And jumping in again...

    Just some short notes:

    - spot and listen checks will be rolled whenever there is a chance that you can detect something (see the skill descriptions). So while the DM may choose this as a basis for encounter distance, he is not forced to do so - still the pcs (and monsters/npcs) will get their spot/listen chances. And THEIR actions then ultimately depend when and where the encounter starts. Hence the "may" part in the DMG for encounters. Thanks to Tsotha-Lanti for the explanations.
    - you cannot target dispel a monk without line of sight. Total concealment blocks line of sight.
    - I acknowledge that some level dips/multiclassing can improve your UMD or mean you do not need UMD at all (by doing a caster level dip). However, all this needs to be weighted against reduced monk combat ability and all of his abilities arriving one level later.

    I updated the monk guide above, including some build/multiclass ideas beyond the joker monk.

    Will be away from the internet for a couple of days. Will post more then.

    - Giacomo

    PS: the great (playtesting) adventure of the joker monk build level 6 is now fully underway, with four members in the group now and the Joker monk mostly filling in for the melee combat spot. See the "playtesting" link the guide for more.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Care to point the thread where this spar between you and Reel on Love took place? I must have missed it.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2008-05-25 at 05:32 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #792
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    It's it one of the top few pages of the gleemax charOp forums. Shouldn't be too hard to find.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    It's it one of the top few pages of the gleemax charOp forums. Shouldn't be too hard to find.
    Impossible. SG said himself that he didn't have an account on gleemax.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    - I acknowledge that some level dips/multiclassing can improve your UMD or mean you do not need UMD at all (by doing a caster level dip). However, all this needs to be weighted against reduced monk combat ability and all of his abilities arriving one level later.
    Let's weigh a few options:

    1 Rogue: +1d6 sneak attack (situational). trapfinding, UMD as a class skill, enhanced starting skills (8 at level 1). Cons: a bit lower HP (2 at level 1), slightly more disadvantageous monk abilities.

    1 Sorceror: Ability to use any sorc/wiz wand, 4+ free buff spells per day (such as enlarge), freeing up WBL for other things. Cons: 11 Cha required, less skills, less hp, slightly more disadvantageous monk abilities.

    1 Cleric: Ability to use divine wands, Several buff/heal spells, good synergy with wisdom. Less skills, subpar low level (level 1) buffs, slightly more disadvantageous monk abilities.

    Note, that with rogue, it drops the level with which you can start reliably UMD by 3-4, which more than makes up for that one level of monk.
    Last edited by Talic; 2008-05-27 at 11:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Let's weigh a few options:
    Also, 1 Expert. It's better than the monk. Oooh, burn!
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Greater skills, same BEB, lower hp (by 2 at level 1, I believe), slightly lower monk abilities, for expert.

    Note, that with Sorceror 1, assuming that in most games, you will not have more than 4 combat encounters in a day, the sorceror level is essentially just like having 1 wand of your choice, available from character creation to level 20, for every fight. Well, excepting that you don't need to spend any actions or feats to draw a wand out, as it's spellcasting.

    All you must do is be unarmored, which is pretty standard operating procedure for monks anyway.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Take 1 level of Human Paragon. Make UMD your adaptive skill so it's always in class for you from now on. Obviously, also choose UMD as one of your ten in class skills and max it at level 1. You can now buy up UMD to full at regular cost for the rest of your monkly career.

    Take your next 19 levels in Monk. Proceed as planned.
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  18. - Top - End - #798
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Helgraf View Post
    Take 1 level of Human Paragon. Make UMD your adaptive skill so it's always in class for you from now on. Obviously, also choose UMD as one of your ten in class skills and max it at level 1. You can now buy up UMD to full at regular cost for the rest of your monkly career.

    Take your next 19 levels in Monk. Proceed as planned.
    Yet another excellent example of improving the Joker Monk concept (which is a variant of the UMD rogue concept).

    Just goes to show you that most non-fullcaster classes and concepts can be significantly improved with multiclassing.

    This isn't a flaw in the system. It's just that, if you plan on building a barbarian exactly as written, then your barbarian is great as is. When you want to vary in tactics from the norm, sometimes other classes have things that capture the feel of your concept better.

  19. - Top - End - #799
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Helgraf View Post
    Take 1 level of Human Paragon. Make UMD your adaptive skill so it's always in class for you from now on. Obviously, also choose UMD as one of your ten in class skills and max it at level 1. You can now buy up UMD to full at regular cost for the rest of your monkly career.

    Take your next 19 levels in Monk. Proceed as planned.
    Alternatively, take your next 19 levels in Rogue. Or Barbarian. Or Unarmed Swordsage. Or anything else, really.

    Or take the next 19 levels in druid. And take the first level in druid, too. Then wild shape into something big and nasty and grapple away while your Animal Companion wails on the creature you're grappling. Congratulations, you've turned it into a decent grapple build.

    The real reason Sir Giacomo doesn't want to consider one-level dips is that as soon as you talk about switching one level out of Monk, you have to start to wonder why you don't just switch all your levels out of Monk.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2008-05-28 at 03:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Wow...someone missed a freakin WALL in the Mage Slayer test. Funny.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Wow...someone missed a freakin WALL in the Mage Slayer test. Funny.
    I'm never going to hear the end of that one, am I?


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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    The real reason Sir Giacomo doesn't want to consider one-level dips is that as soon as you talk about switching one level out of Monk, you have to start to wonder why you don't just switch all your levels out of Monk.
    Quoted for truth.

    Since the game is UMD, the gonk is beaten at this game by (1) anything that has a higher BAB, (2) anything that has UMD as a class skill, or (3) any decent spellcaster. This just happens to include every single other class in the player's handbook, and several of the NPC classes as well.

    But hey, some class had to be the worst...
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Changeling monk 6/warshaper 4/monk 12/full BAB class 4

    Level 6 monk bonus feat is monastic training, allowing levels in one other class.

    +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1 attack routine, +14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+4/+1 with snap kick.

    3d8+str damage on each hit with monk's belt and improved natural attack.

    Immunity to critical hits, +4 str +4 con, 10 foot reach, and fast healing 2.

    Also, this build takes Versatile Unarmed Strike, in order to do things like stab people with extendable, 5 foot long fingers.
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Quoted for truth.

    Since the game is UMD, the gonk is beaten at this game by (1) anything that has a higher BAB, (2) anything that has UMD as a class skill, or (3) any decent spellcaster. This just happens to include every single other class in the player's handbook, and several of the NPC classes as well.

    But hey, some class had to be the worst...
    Are you *sure* Monk is the worse? I always thought Monk > Samurai > Truenamer?

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Are you *sure* Monk is the worse? I always thought Monk > Samurai > Truenamer?
    I'd put them Truename > Samurai~=~Monk, in general. Truenamers use a magic-like system. It's got plenty of problems of its own, certainly, but it's magic. Which means it gets to work with a pale reflection of the 3.5 truism that Magic Wins. The Monk and Samurai are largely non-magical melee, which is the utter bottom of the stack when un- or poorly optimized.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Worira View Post
    Changeling monk 6/warshaper 4/monk 12/full BAB class 4

    Level 6 monk bonus feat is monastic training, allowing levels in one other class.

    +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1 attack routine, +14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+4/+1 with snap kick.

    3d8+str damage on each hit with monk's belt and improved natural attack.

    Immunity to critical hits, +4 str +4 con, 10 foot reach, and fast healing 2.

    Also, this build takes Versatile Unarmed Strike, in order to do things like stab people with extendable, 5 foot long fingers.
    How about Druid 16/Warshaper 3/Nature's Warrior 1 (ability: Serpent's coils)?

    Shift form into an advanced Dire Lion (advanced per MM creature advancement rules to increase to 17HD - huge).

    Now, pouncing charge, full attack with rakes, grapple, etc.

    Now we take fast wildshape and swift wildshape, natural spell, and the like. Go with Improved Grapple, also.

    Now, we have +8 size, +4 Improved grapple, +4 Serpent's Coils (critter has improved grab), competitive BAB, very good reach, Very high strength, and 8th level magic.

    If you counter with a buff, such as divine power? Well, in that round, the druid can always Animal Growth, for an additional +4 from size, and +4 more from strength.

    Final grapple?

    Lion without animal growth?

    +15 (BAB) +13 (Str - 25 Base+8 advancement+4 Warshaper) + 8 (size) + 4 (feat) + 4 (coils) = +44 grapple, 3 attacks (5 in grapple, or on charge)

    With growth?

    +15 (BAB) +17 (Str - 25 Base+8 size +8 advancement+4 Warshaper +) + 12 (size) + 4 (feat) + 4 (coils) = +52 grapple, 3 attacks (5 in grapple, or on charge)

    Note, this is using core only spells, and core only shifting. I used the same PrC as you (warshaper), to illustrate, and added 1 Druid type PrC that fits the theme from non-core, as well as 2 feats that make the build able to charge on round 1 without any delays.

    Note, of the 5 attacks in the grapple, 4 are at full BAB, matching the monk there, as well.

    Now, +44-52 grapple, versus the CR 20 critters out there:
    Spoiler
    Show
    {table=header]Creature | Grapple | Druid advantage
    Balor | +35 | (+9) - (+17)
    Black Dragon (Wyrm) | +58 | (-14) - (-6)
    Brass Dragon (Ancient) | +50 | (-6) - (+2)
    Bronze Dragon (Very Old) | +49 | (-5) - (+3)
    Copper Dragon (Very Old) | +47 | (-3) - (+5)
    Pit Fiend | +35 | (+9) - (+17)
    Red Dragon (Old) | +52 | (-8) - (0)
    Silver Dragon (Old) | +46 | (-2) - (+6)
    Tarrasque | +81 | (-37) - (-29)[/table]

    This shows that, while anything whose name ends in "-ragon" can compete with the druid, none can do it while not counting as grappled reliably. Thus, in order to beat the druid in grapple, every monster up there except for the Tarrasque must deny dex to everything else, opening up sneak attacks and the like.

    If you change it to Druid 17/Warshaper 2/Nature's warrior 1, it gets worse, as Shapechange opens up new options for even larger creatures. Also, choosing creatures with higher strength will result in checks that can reliably beat dragons, and deal with pit fiends as if not grappled. I doubt that it'll get you to tarrasque levels, but that's the idea. Also, shapechange is quite easy to get off quick with a greater rod of quicken, which is awesome for a 20th level fullcaster.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    The real reason Sir Giacomo doesn't want to consider one-level dips is that as soon as you talk about switching one level out of Monk, you have to start to wonder why you don't just switch all your levels out of Monk.
    no, the Real reason why Sir G did not considder one level dips, or going outside core, is that when the big discussions about monks first began, then it was desidet by the majority to only considder "pure" builds, and to keep it in core, to avoid the discussion getting to complicatet, and to make sure everyone had the relevant books.

    Note, this is using core only spells, and core only shifting. I used the same PrC as you (warshaper), to illustrate, and added 1 Druid type PrC that fits the theme from non-core, as well as 2 feats that make the build able to charge on round 1 without any delays.

    Note, of the 5 attacks in the grapple, 4 are at full BAB, matching the monk there, as well.
    wow... you managet to make a grappling monster out of a druid, using only 2 prestice classes.

    that aside, are you sure you can shift into advanced animals?

    also when your lion is in a grapple, its reduced to the grapple checks it would gain from bab
    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2008-05-29 at 03:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    no, the Real reason why Sir G did not considder one level dips, or going outside core, is that when the big discussions about monks first began, then it was desidet by the majority to only considder "pure" builds, and to keep it in core, to avoid the discussion getting to complicatet, and to make sure everyone had the relevant books.
    In that case, he failed. He's not examining the viability of the monk class. He's building a guide for those who want to play monks. Totally different field, and you need to include things in one that aren't in the other. ESPECIALLY when you make a build that would be far, far batter with another class dip (or another class altogether).
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    wow... you managet to make a grappling monster out of a druid, using only 2 prestice classes.

    that aside, are you sure you can shift into advanced animals?

    also when your lion is in a grapple, its reduced to the grapple checks it would gain from bab

    By that interpretation, monks can't flurry in a grapple. As you obviously are listing flurry in your build, I can only assume that we're not using that interpretation. Without that, you get attacks based on YOUR BAB (not the lion's), which would be +15, for 3 attacks. Let's go 1 claw, and 2 unarmed strikes (let's call them headbutts).

    Further, the lion has a special ability that grants it 2 additional attacks in a grapple. That ability is Rake. I encourage you to review it. That puts us up to 1 claw at full BAB, 2 rakes at full BAB, and 2 unarmed strikes at -5 and -10. I still think the druid's ahead.

    As for the PrC thing? You brought PrC's into it. Removing the only one you didn't use in your monk example that I quoted keeps the druid as a grappling monster, albeit -4 grapple lower, and frees up the second example I posted, wherein Shapechange is used to boost grapple far higher. So the second PrC actually LOWERS grapple checks, comparatively. And I can only assume you're not objecting to Warshaper, as you yourself used it in your example.

    As for shifting into advanced animals... It is a nonunique creature, that represents a bigger, stronger, more mature animal. It is still an animal. Thus, it runs afoul of no rule for shifting, and there is no rule that says you cannot advance an animal's HD. The Statistics for advancement are listed in the Dire Lion's monster entry, and the rules for it are laid out in the SRD. The real question is, can you show me anywhere that says they can't? By what I see, it obeys every single rule that guide the Alternate Form ability.
    Last edited by Talic; 2008-05-29 at 05:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    By the way, since Gia didnt respond to this yet:
    Can a monk make disarm, sunder, and trip attacks
    during her flurry of blows? What about grapple checks?
    What about bull rushes, overruns, or other special combat
    maneuvers?

    As long as every attack is made with one of the monk’s
    special weapons (that is, weapons allowed as part of a flurry),
    the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of
    a normal attack. She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple to her heart's content.
    Is a grapple check inside a grapple a special attack that takes the place of a normal attack?

    Lemme answer that for you: No.
    Edit:
    From another section of the FAQ:
    Spoiler
    Show

    When using Combat Expertise or Power Attack, does
    the penalty you take also apply to opposed attack rolls
    (such as when you are involved in a disarm or sunder
    attempt)? What about on grapple checks?

    Yes and no. Anything described as an attack roll (even an
    opposed attack roll) can be affected by Combat Expertise or
    Power Attack. A grapple check isn’t an attack roll, so you can’t
    use Combat Expertise or Power Attack in conjunction with it.
    Italics are mine.
    I have a monk with the Vow of Poverty feat (from Book
    of Exalted Deeds
    ). Does the exalted strike bonus apply to
    grapple, sunder, disarm, and trip attempts?
    The exalted strike bonus gained by a character who has
    taken Vow of Poverty applies only on attack and damage rolls.
    Unless something is described as an attack roll or a damage
    roll, the bonus doesn’t apply.

    • The touch attack made to start a grapple is an attack
    roll (so the bonus would apply to this roll), but a
    grapple check is not an attack roll, and thus the bonus
    wouldn’t apply to the grapple check.
    Likewise, the
    touch attack made to start a trip attack would gain the
    bonus, but the Strength check you make to trip the
    defender is not an attack roll and wouldn’t gain the
    bonus.
    • To attempt a disarm attack or a sunder attack, you
    make an attack roll opposed by the defender’s attack
    roll, so the exalted strike bonus would apply.
    Again, Italics are mine.

    You might argue that you can make a bunch of -4 attacks, but you cannot use a FoB combined with the grapple check to damage option.
    Last edited by Griffin131; 2008-05-29 at 06:14 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #810
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    lord_khaine's Avatar

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    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    By that interpretation, monks can't flurry in a grapple. As you obviously are listing flurry in your build, I can only assume that we're not using that interpretation. Without that, you get attacks based on YOUR BAB (not the lion's), which would be +15, for 3 attacks. Let's go 1 claw, and 2 unarmed strikes (let's call them headbutts).
    monks can flurry in a grapple because its confirmed that they indeed can do so, the same place explains that you cant use natural attacks for grapple attempts, so you would just get 3 unarmed strikes, with damage according to your size.

    Further, the lion has a special ability that grants it 2 additional attacks in a grapple. That ability is Rake. I encourage you to review it. That puts us up to 1 claw at full BAB, 2 rakes at full BAB, and 2 unarmed strikes at -5 and -10. I still think the druid's ahead.
    no, that puts you on either 3 unarmed grapple attempts from bab, and 2 rake strikes, or you can just make it all strikes, in that case you can use 1 natural weapon, and the additional rakes.

    As for the PrC thing? You brought PrC's into it. Removing the only one you didn't use in your monk example that I quoted keeps the druid as a grappling monster, albeit -4 grapple lower, and frees up the second example I posted, wherein Shapechange is used to boost grapple far higher. So the second PrC actually LOWERS grapple checks, comparatively. And I can only assume you're not objecting to Warshaper, as you yourself used it in your example
    i would really like to see where i have used any prestice class, or taken anything outside core in this discussion, i think you are confusing me with someone else.

    as for the last part, it looks like one of those things where it doesnt say you can, but not that you cant either, though for a start i can imagine you would have problems with the familiar part, since i doubt there are that many 17hd lions running around.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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