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  1. - Top - End - #841

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    3) Divine Power (BAB difference does not matter anymore at high levels, please start to accept this; it's starting to get ridiculous)
    So a Cleric can't zilla better then a fighter, but your Monk can take his 75% chance of UMDing a wand, and get Divine Power up for seven rounds sometimes, taking at least one, probably more actions to buff, and this will serve him in every single fight you will ever face, and you have the money to pay for this.

    Sure.

    Seriously, I want to see a Playtest of any level you actually think you'll have Divine Power, so you can see that you will never ever ever be able to use it to do anything in a fight.

  2. - Top - End - #842
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    flurry of blows says you get additional attacks, the text here
    Absolutely correct. Also irrelevant, bacause special grapple actions are NOT attacks. They take the place of attacks, yes, but only gain additional attacks from BAB, which you were kind enough to point out when you commented on natural attacks in a grapple. This is per the SRD entry you quoted.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    says that some of these actions can be taken in place of a attack, and the FAQ confirms that the understanding that the additional attacks from FoB can be used for these actions.
    Yes, they are used in place of an attack, and have the further qualifier that you may take extra attacks granted by high BAB. That's it. If the FAQ says anything which contradicts the SRD, the FAQ is wrong. In this instance, it does. Thus, the FAQ entry has no weight, relevance, or bearing on the issue, as Primary Source (SRD) directly contradicts it. So sorry, too bad, so sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    yeah, but its only one of them that can the used for grapple checks, the other 2 are just normal claw attacks.
    But, but, if you can use crapple checks in place of attacks like you say above, and a lion gets 3 attacks, then why doesn't the lion get all three in a grapple?

    Note your obvious and blatant double standard.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    well i usualy find it overkill to put a prestice class on a druid.
    Ah, I forgot. PrC's do have that prerequisite, "Must not have any levels in the Druid base class"... Oh wait.

    See your 2nd blatant double standard? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If monks are balanced, then you should follow the same standards for them that you do for everyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    actualy the FAQ allows it.
    Which is completely irrelevant, as the SRD does not. If you're going to override Primary Source, you must do it with Primary Source, not FAQ.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    as for the scaling up of both items and dire lions.
    yes with small items like daggers and swords you can scale them up to a certain degree, but soner or later you will find a limit for the strength of whatever material you are using, take fx the building of a 3 m long bridge, thats pretty simple.
    Could you show me the ruling on that? The only thing I see for bridges is the arching and buttressing of Wall of Stone, when used to make a bridge. As for the limits to which you can scale up creatures, they do provide very specific limitations, as laid out in the entries for those creatures.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    now lets build one thats 300 meter long, can you just the previous bridge up?
    no you have to start with a totaly new design.
    Fascinating, but unless you're using the Wall of Stone spell to do it, your argument has no RAW basis.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    its something of the same with the druid, if he wants to turn into a big feline predator, but the only animal he has seen is a cat, then he cant just scale it up so size large, he has to go out and study a lion or whatever relatet animal he can find.
    Again, no basis in RAW.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    as far as i can see its the same with huge lions, you cant simply scale a normal lion up, you have to get familiar with a real huge lion first.
    Again, no SRD basis for doing so. A Dire Lion that has 6 HD and a Dire Lion that has 9 HD, and a Dire Lion that has 17HD are all dire lions. If you are familiar with Dire lion, it stands to reason, by SRD, that you can change into any of these. Further, if a DRUID can't be familiar with a wide variety of animals, plants, and the like, then who the heck can? Can you name me one class more thematically appropriate to represent a close bond with nature?

    Again, this boils down to you advocating restricting player options without clear and explicit RAW text establishing this. Great for you, but I don't know of many players that would like that sort of homebrew.
    Last edited by Talic; 2008-05-29 at 11:53 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #843
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Two points to be made
    1) Posting the level 20 monk build indeed was to show that in core as a straight 1-20 build, the monk can be a viable, highly useful class. Of course it can be easily used to multiclass and take prestige class, but this then takes away from either its combat ability, or its magebane aspect, or his stealth. So basically it means: a different build. See the updated guide above, though, making already use of some of your ideas for multiclass builds.
    Really? level 1 rogue, level 19 monk will slightly lower monk abilities, but give rogue abilities to match, keeping combat ability roughly on par... That is, as long as you maintain that all classes are balanced, right?
    As its skills are superior to a monk's, and include the stealth and detection skill suites, then it's not going to harm stealth. With UMD as a class skill, it's going to make better use of your primary character ability. This is much like asking whether or not rogue or barbarian is better for a Shock trooper build. Even if both are balanced, the barbarian's unique skills lend themselves more to power attack. Much as the rogue benefits your build more than monk, at level 1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    2) Grapple can be flurried. Get over it. The FAQ on p. 20 quoted already several times says it all (the question says grapple CHECK, not grapple attack, and it is answered positively explicitly "She's free to...grapple to her heart's content."). It's one of the monk advantages for grappling, alongside
    - best damage stacking for unarmed grapple damage and
    - the possiblity of getting improved grapple as a bonus feat (thus without the DEX requirement, meaning less MAD for REALLY STR-focused monk builds).
    Wrong. SRD contradicts this. SRD is primary source. The FAQ can tell you that monks get to roll 10d20 for their attacks, and choose the best one. It can tell you that monks get full casting progression of wizards. But if anything in the FAQ contradicts something in the SRD, then (and listen closely to this) the FAQ is wrong. Period. End of discussion.

    No more FAQ sources to try to directly contradict SRD. Either pull your contradiction directly from Primary source, or acknowledge that, by Primary Source, monks can flurry in a grapple no more or less than animals can use all of their natural attacks in a grapple.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Once more: UMD is PART of the build, but it is by far not the major aspect. The major aspect is that the Joker monk uses spells from the following sources to achieve synergies with his many class abilities...
    1) items (with UMD)
    2) items (without UMD)
    3) npc buffs
    4) pc buffs
    See how your alleged "since UMD is the game" is reduced to 25% of THIS particular tactics of the Joker monk?
    Flawed statistics. The following example character uses all 4 aspects above:
    Used 17 wands (all 50 charges)
    Used 39 scrolls
    Got 27 NPC spells cast for him (not combat buffs, as SRD defaults NPCs following you into combat as "no")
    Got 3 other PC's to waste 20 of their total actions casting spells on you.
    Drank 17 potions.

    Now, by this, the character has done the following:
    889 uses of UMD
    27 npc spells
    60 PC buffs
    17 buffs without UMD.

    Not 25%. Your build is reliant on UMD in a manner that requires it use UMD more than any other skill you list. The only monk abilities you remotely try to synergize are movement, unarmed strike damage, and Flurry. Now, Unarmed Strike damage is, at best, a tradeoff. You give up the ability to enchant your weapon, and get enhanced damage. No real gain, just different flavor, and less versatility. Flurry has been shown to have its drawbacks as well. That leaves movement, which doesn't stack with UMD enhancement bonuses.

    If the two most primary spells you use are Enlarge Person and Expeditious retreat, then the character class that gets the greatest benefit from this style of build is the BARBARIAN. Increased size gets reach and damage, one first level spell puts even a moderate level barbarian's movement on par with the movement of a level 14 monk, and rage is a combat ability which is at least on par with Flurry. Enhance the concept with a haste weapon, or boots of haste, and suddenly we have a character that has class abilities that synergize better with UMD than monk (barbarian's movement boost is not enhancement bonus, damage with weapons increases with size, as does strength, synergizing with rage).
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Then he uses spells that synergise very well or best with the monk. Good examples are
    1) Enlarge (grapple, unarmed damage stacking)
    2) Fly (getting the highest non-morph, non-phantomsteed move in the core game)
    3) Divine Power (BAB difference does not matter anymore at high levels, please start to accept this; it's starting to get ridiculous)
    4) Silence (home in with high move and tumble to thwart spellcasting)
    5) AMF (ditto)
    6) Mage Armour
    etc.
    Examples 1, 4, and 5 are shown to benefit the barbarian more. Option 2 is non-cost effective, and equal to both. Option 3 is non cost-effective for regular use at any level before 17, relegating Divine Power as a high level tactic, at best, not a core build argument. Option 5 is not cost effective for regular use.
    So the only argument you have is 6) Mage armor. Divine power and Mage armor are listed as synergizing with a monk's features. Those "features" are lower BAB and no armor. Sounds a lot like when Microsoft calls glitches and bugs "security features".
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    The joker monk at level 20, if morphing is in, can do the following.
    Either he polymorph any object into a fairly impressive outsider of up to 15 HD (the only one able to do that in core without LA races).
    Or, to maximise grappling, he'll simply use a scroll of animal shapes and turn into a roc. With divine power, at level 20 and 4 inherent bonuses to STR, the following ensues.
    +20 (BAB) +17 (STR 44- 34 roc, +6 enhance, +4 inherent) +12 (size) +4 (feat) = +53 grapple (not making use of non-core coils and warshaper). Note that he gets 6 grapple checks per round, of which 3 are at the highest (another nice monk feature often ignored around here.
    Nice. Now explain how you're getting the DC 35 UMD check for that scroll reliably.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    But it is the damage that outclasses the druid in the contest for best grappler.
    It is actually 18d6 (2d10 base, increase by INA and 4 size increases) +17, or 80 damage per grapple check. With six checks, that is 480 damage.
    Again, based on 1 small detail... The fact that, to do this 100% of the time, you need a +34 UMD. It's nice to pull whatever you need, whenever you need it, but, assuming that you have an 18 charisma, 11 ranks, a +6 cha item, 5 stat boosts in cha, a +5 inherent to cha from a book, +2 from a UMD item, and +5 from skill focus and magical aptitude... well, that's still only a +30. And that's pretty well fully optimized for core. And with all that, you STILL have a 20% chance of failing that scroll. Now, your joker build typically goes with an 8-10 charisma, by your guide, and no stat boosts into cha, dropping you 6 points, for a 50/50 viability. As is, your Joker monk has a 25% chance of pulling it off, with a scant +19 to grapple.

    So here's how it goes down.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Monk: I animal shape!
    DM: Fail.
    Druid: I cast shapeshift, turning into a gargantuan Roc.
    DM: ok.
    Monk: I animal shape!
    DM: Ok, you get it this time.
    Druid: I cast hide from animals, sharing with my animal companion, then move.
    Monk: I attack!
    DM: you can't locate him.
    Monk: What!?
    DM: you're an animal right now, by hide from animals you can't use any sense to locate him.
    Monk: I run to wait out his buff!


    Note: Above, I portrayed the Joker monk as being lucky, as there's only 1 failure listed, although the odds of failure are 75%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Ditto for the monk - who'll down the monster faster.
    Wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Well, shapechange does have the already mentioned drawback of needing "familiarity" to use the form. Plus, it's not as long-lasting. And of course the joker monk could also get it.
    Actually... No, it doesn't. Wildshape requires familiarity. Shapechange does not. As for the last UMD? For scrolls of shapechange?
    DC 37 UMD, and over 3k a pop. For enough to use 14 times (1 level's worth of adventures), this one will run you a whopping 65,025 gp. That's approaching 10% of a level 20's full wealth.
    Not to mention your level 20 Joker build has a total of a whopping +19 to UMD, requiring aroll of 18 to use shapechange, a roll of 16 to use animal shapes, and a roll of 12 to use the AMF that you've been touting.

    This is what is defined as "fail".
    Last edited by Talic; 2008-05-30 at 01:01 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #844
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    2) Grapple can be flurried. Get over it. The FAQ on p. 20 quoted already several times says it all (the question says grapple CHECK, not grapple attack, and it is answered positively explicitly "She's free to...grapple to her heart's content.").
    Shes free to use special attacks in a FOB to her hearts content. Initiating a Grapple is a special attack. Grapple Checks inside a Grapple is not.

    Once more: UMD is PART of the build, but it is by far not the major aspect. The major aspect is that the Joker monk uses spells from the following sources to achieve synergies with his many class abilities...
    What are your level 20 stats WITHOUT UMD?

  5. - Top - End - #845
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    flurry of blows says you get additional attacks, the text here

    says that some of these actions can be taken in place of a attack, and the FAQ confirms that the understanding that the additional attacks from FoB can be used for these actions.
    No. The FAQ says that you can make special attacks in place of a normal attack in a FoB. A Grapple Check is not a Special Attack. Here is a list of Special Attacks, as defined by the SRD:

    Aid another Grant an ally a +2 bonus on attacks or AC
    Bull rush Push an opponent back 5 feet or more
    Charge Move up to twice your speed and attack with a +2 bonus
    Disarm Knock a weapon from your opponent’s hands, or grab a worn item
    Feint Negate your opponent’s Dex bonus to AC
    Grapple Wrestle with an opponent
    Mounted Combat Fight while riding your steed
    Overrun Plow past or over an opponent as you move
    Sunder Strike an opponent’s weapon or shield
    Throw splash weapon Throw container of dangerous liquid at target
    Trip Trip an opponent
    Turn (rebuke) undead Channel positive (or negative) energy to turn away (or awe) undead
    Two-weapon fighting Fight with a weapon in each hand

    Grapple is on there, but thats the check to initiate a grapple.

    yeah, but its only one of them that can the used for grapple checks, the other 2 are just normal claw attacks.
    But any attack can be used for a grapple check, honest!

    as for the scaling up of both items and dire lions.
    yes with small items like daggers and swords you can scale them up to a certain degree, but soner or later you will find a limit for the strength of whatever material you are using, take fx the building of a 3 m long bridge, thats pretty simple.
    now lets build one thats 300 meter long, can you just the previous bridge up?
    no you have to start with a totaly new design.
    Actually, you dont. You can use the same design, its just not cost efficient.

    its something of the same with the druid, if he wants to turn into a big feline predator, but the only animal he has seen is a cat, then he cant just scale it up so size large, he has to go out and study a lion or whatever relatet animal he can find.
    as far as i can see its the same with huge lions, you cant simply scale a normal lion up, you have to get familiar with a real huge lion first.
    At Level 13, I can summon one every day (plus Wisdom bonuses). If thats not enough to get familiar with them, I don't know what is.

  6. - Top - End - #846
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Once more: UMD is PART of the build, but it is by far not the major aspect. The major aspect is that the Joker monk uses spells from the following sources to achieve synergies with his many class abilities...
    1) items (with UMD)
    2) items (without UMD)
    3) npc buffs
    4) pc buffs
    See how your alleged "since UMD is the game" is reduced to 25% of THIS particular tactics of the Joker monk?
    Then he uses spells that synergise very well or best with the monk. Good examples are
    1) Enlarge (grapple, unarmed damage stacking)
    2) Fly (getting the highest non-morph, non-phantomsteed move in the core game)
    3) Divine Power (BAB difference does not matter anymore at high levels, please start to accept this; it's starting to get ridiculous)
    4) Silence (home in with high move and tumble to thwart spellcasting)
    5) AMF (ditto)
    6) Mage Armour
    etc.
    You can't get Enlarge, Fly, Divine Power, Silence, AMF, Mage Armor from NPC casters reliably, because you won't have a friendly spellcaster NPC running around you all the time. PC casters might have better things to do (Wizards, for example, will probably use Solid Fog/Glitterdust/Buff the Barbarian who doesnt need as much as you to be competent. Clerics can't buff you with their best buffs). Items without UMD are possible, but it depends on your DM to allow custom items, and it's not likely that all custom items will be allowed. So that leaves your UMD usage.

    The joker monk at level 20, if morphing is in, can do the following.
    Either he polymorph any object into a fairly impressive outsider of up to 15 HD (the only one able to do that in core without LA races).
    Or, to maximise grappling, he'll simply use a scroll of animal shapes and turn into a roc. With divine power, at level 20 and 4 inherent bonuses to STR, the following ensues.
    +20 (BAB) +17 (STR 44- 34 roc, +6 enhance, +4 inherent) +12 (size) +4 (feat) = +53 grapple (not making use of non-core coils and warshaper). Note that he gets 6 grapple checks per round, of which 3 are at the highest (another nice monk feature often ignored around here.
    Why can't the druid also take Divine Power, do the exact same thing as you, but cheaper since he doesnt need to use a scroll of animal shapes? (He might even have more attack bonus, since he can use Animal growth right after that).

    Oh, and waiting for your buffs to run out actually works against you here, since Divine Power doesn't last long enough.

    But it is the damage that outclasses the druid in the contest for best grappler.
    It is actually 18d6 (2d10 base, increase by INA and 4 size increases) +17, or 80 damage per grapple check. With six checks, that is 480 damage.
    Assuming 6 checks succeed, of course, and also leaving yourself supremely vulnerable to any other monsters running around. Druid also has his dire bear companion to max power attack and full attack the grappled monster if he pleases, although he might choose to let it rip off another enemy instead to hasten the battle.

    Ditto for the monk - who'll down the monster faster.
    Druid can get his animal companion to maul another monster. That's 2 monsters at one go.

    Well, shapechange does have the already mentioned drawback of needing "familiarity" to use the form. Plus, it's not as long-lasting. And of course the joker monk could also get it.
    You need familiarity too. And if druids aren't familiar, why should you be?
    Last edited by Armads; 2008-05-30 at 07:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    The Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus as listed in Table:The Monk is a modified base attack bonus (specifically called this) as referenced under Flurry of Blows. This is the only character in the SRD that has 2 BaB's. One for normal actions, and one for Flurry of Blows actions.

    Under grappling actions, attacking with a natural weapon (claws & teeth) suffer a -4 attack penalty. Damaging your opponent with a Grapple Check does unarmed strike damage, not natural weapon damage. What is the unarmed strike damage for an animal? I know they don't get multiple attacks for high base attack bonus. And I know there are various grapple attack methods (Rake, Constrict, etcetera) that counter the natural attack penalties... But those are exceptions, not the rule.
    "I am bleeding, making me the victor!" - Wimp Lo, 'Kung Pow'
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  8. - Top - End - #848
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Funkyodor View Post
    The Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus as listed in Table:The Monk is a modified base attack bonus (specifically called this) as referenced under Flurry of Blows. This is the only character in the SRD that has 2 BaB's. One for normal actions, and one for Flurry of Blows actions.
    Right -- Its a FoB Attack Bonus, not a Base Attack Bonus. Monks dont have 2 Base Attack Bonuses, they have a BAB and a FoBAB.

    Under grappling actions, attacking with a natural weapon (claws & teeth) suffer a -4 attack penalty. Damaging your opponent with a Grapple Check does unarmed strike damage, not natural weapon damage. What is the unarmed strike damage for an animal? I know they don't get multiple attacks for high base attack bonus. And I know there are various grapple attack methods (Rake, Constrict, etcetera) that counter the natural attack penalties... But those are exceptions, not the rule.
    I have no idea where this paragraph is going, so I present you with this:
    Spoiler
    Show

  9. - Top - End - #849
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Absolutely correct. Also irrelevant, bacause special grapple actions are NOT attacks. They take the place of attacks, yes, but only gain additional attacks from BAB, which you were kind enough to point out when you commented on natural attacks in a grapple. This is per the SRD entry you quoted.
    is just a shame that part was only about natural attacks.

    Yes, they are used in place of an attack, and have the further qualifier that you may take extra attacks granted by high BAB. That's it. If the FAQ says anything which contradicts the SRD, the FAQ is wrong. In this instance, it does. Thus, the FAQ entry has no weight, relevance, or bearing on the issue, as Primary Source (SRD) directly contradicts it. So sorry, too bad, so sad.
    Primary source only apply to sourcebooks, the Errata contains changes to those books, and the FAQ shows us when there are parts of the primary source that is being misunderstood.

    But, but, if you can use crapple checks in place of attacks like you say above, and a lion gets 3 attacks, then why doesn't the lion get all three in a grapple?

    Note your obvious and blatant double standard.
    nothing of double standart here, its the same standart applying to 2 different situations, try and read the FAQ about monsters grappling, they are covering a lion there.

    Ah, I forgot. PrC's do have that prerequisite, "Must not have any levels in the Druid base class"... Oh wait.

    See your 2nd blatant double standard? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If monks are balanced, then you should follow the same standards for them that you do for everyone else.
    you are starting to see double so often you sound drunk, its yet again a case of the same standart on 2 different situations, here the problem is that while monks are balanced, Druids are not.

    Which is completely irrelevant, as the SRD does not. If you're going to override Primary Source, you must do it with Primary Source, not FAQ.
    as mentioned before, thats for sourcebooks, and there is no overriding, only misunderstandings.

    Could you show me the ruling on that? The only thing I see for bridges is the arching and buttressing of Wall of Stone, when used to make a bridge. As for the limits to which you can scale up creatures, they do provide very specific limitations, as laid out in the entries for those creatures.
    go look at a couple of bridges, im sure you will see it sooner or later.

    Fascinating, but unless you're using the Wall of Stone spell to do it, your argument has no RAW basis
    well then its good i dont argue against anything with raw basis either.

    Again, no basis in RAW
    still not arguing against anything in raw either.

    Again, no SRD basis for doing so. A Dire Lion that has 6 HD and a Dire Lion that has 9 HD, and a Dire Lion that has 17HD are all dire lions. If you are familiar with Dire lion, it stands to reason, by SRD, that you can change into any of these. Further, if a DRUID can't be familiar with a wide variety of animals, plants, and the like, then who the heck can? Can you name me one class more thematically appropriate to represent a close bond with nature?
    no, there is a standart number of hd for a dire lion, if you move above that its a totaly different crature, that you cant even be sure actualy exist in the world.

    Again, this boils down to you advocating restricting player options without clear and explicit RAW text establishing this. Great for you, but I don't know of many players that would like that sort of homebrew
    no this is me arguing against the abuse of an allready partly broken class feature.

    Wrong. SRD contradicts this. SRD is primary source. The FAQ can tell you that monks get to roll 10d20 for their attacks, and choose the best one. It can tell you that monks get full casting progression of wizards. But if anything in the FAQ contradicts something in the SRD, then (and listen closely to this) the FAQ is wrong. Period. End of discussion.

    No more FAQ sources to try to directly contradict SRD. Either pull your contradiction directly from Primary source, or acknowledge that, by Primary Source, monks can flurry in a grapple no more or less than animals can use all of their natural attacks in a grapple.
    Wrong, but i have allready answered this, so i will just refer to the above answer.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Shes free to use special attacks in a FOB to her hearts content. Initiating a Grapple is a special attack. Grapple Checks inside a Grapple is not.
    if that was the case then she really isnt free to grapple to her hearts content.

    No. The FAQ says that you can make special attacks in place of a normal attack in a FoB. A Grapple Check is not a Special Attack. Here is a list of Special Attacks, as defined by the SRD:

    Aid another Grant an ally a +2 bonus on attacks or AC
    Bull rush Push an opponent back 5 feet or more
    Charge Move up to twice your speed and attack with a +2 bonus
    Disarm Knock a weapon from your opponent’s hands, or grab a worn item
    Feint Negate your opponent’s Dex bonus to AC
    Grapple Wrestle with an opponent
    Mounted Combat Fight while riding your steed
    Overrun Plow past or over an opponent as you move
    Sunder Strike an opponent’s weapon or shield
    Throw splash weapon Throw container of dangerous liquid at target
    Trip Trip an opponent
    Turn (rebuke) undead Channel positive (or negative) energy to turn away (or awe) undead
    Two-weapon fighting Fight with a weapon in each hand

    Grapple is on there, but thats the check to initiate a grapple
    well apperently it count as the same check that startet the grapple.

    But any attack can be used for a grapple check, honest!
    i suspect you know better, so clearly you are not a honest person.

    Actually, you dont. You can use the same design, its just not cost efficient.
    that really depends on the design of the first bridge.

    At Level 13, I can summon one every day (plus Wisdom bonuses). If thats not enough to get familiar with them, I don't know what is
    at level 13 you are still only summoning a large animal, and at level 13 you cant even turn into it yet, since it has 16 hd.

    Under grappling actions, attacking with a natural weapon (claws & teeth) suffer a -4 attack penalty. Damaging your opponent with a Grapple Check does unarmed strike damage, not natural weapon damage. What is the unarmed strike damage for an animal? I know they don't get multiple attacks for high base attack bonus. And I know there are various grapple attack methods (Rake, Constrict, etcetera) that counter the natural attack penalties... But those are exceptions, not the rule.
    i cant see whats so hard to understand about this question, normal unarmed damage for a animal is the standart 1d3, scaled up for size, its covered in the faq page 95.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post

    So here's how it goes down.
    Spoiler
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    Monk: I animal shape!
    DM: Fail.
    Druid: I cast shapeshift, turning into a gargantuan Roc.
    DM: ok.
    Monk: I animal shape!
    DM: Ok, you get it this time.
    Druid: I cast hide from animals, sharing with my animal companion, then move.
    Monk: I attack!
    DM: you can't locate him.
    Monk: What!?
    DM: you're an animal right now, by hide from animals you can't use any sense to locate him.
    Monk: I run to wait out his buff!
    Do you really not see the problem with that line of reasoning? You're arguing that a wildshaping druid can be made useless with a 1st level spell.
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    is just a shame that part was only about natural attacks.
    And the part about gaining additional uses of the grapple check for high BAB? Does that mention natural attacks? Does it mention gaining additional uses of the grapple check for other related additional attack abilities? No? Oh yeah, that means it doesn't work. Just sayin.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Primary source only apply to sourcebooks, the Errata contains changes to those books, and the FAQ shows us when there are parts of the primary source that is being misunderstood.
    WRONG. The SRD contains errata to books, and primary source applies to ANY D&D rule set. Period. Unless you can show me where in the primary source ruling it mentions that material Wizards publishes on the internet is exempt from it, you are, yet again, wrong. Text trumps tables. Well, there are tables in the SRD, the exact same ones in the core books, and there is text in the SRD, exactly as listed in the core books. Does that text only trump the table in the paper copy of the book? Or are you going to relinquish your death grip on this utterly absurd concept?
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    nothing of double standart here, its the same standart applying to 2 different situations, try and read the FAQ about monsters grappling, they are covering a lion there.
    Let me make this clearer, since you seem to have disregarded it or misunderstood it the first several times I posted it...
    SRD trumps FAQ.

    FAQ says something different than SRD? If no, then all is well. If yes, then SRD is in error. PERIOD. End of discussion. Disagree all you like with that truth, but you're tilting with windmills if you do, Don Quixote.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    you are starting to see double so often you sound drunk, its yet again a case of the same standart on 2 different situations, here the problem is that while monks are balanced, Druids are not.
    Ah, now that is a misperception. Also, please don't denigrate others with comments such as "you sound drunk". At least, don't do it to me. I don't appreciate it, and I suspect it borders on inflammatory.

    If not everything is balanced, then nothing is balanced. Why? Because in order for something to be balanced, it must be balanced against everything else. If one part of the scale isn't balanced, then nothing is in balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    as mentioned before, thats for sourcebooks, and there is no overriding, only misunderstandings.
    The windmill is not a dragon. If the rules don't agree with you, they're obviously misunderstood, even when they spell out in simple text exactly what gets you additional grapple checks (Hint: high base attack bonus). Is flurry listed? Are other sources of extra attacks listed? No? No? THEN NO. It is not a misunderstanding if the rules directly contradict you. The only misunderstanding is when you think they don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    go look at a couple of bridges, im sure you will see it sooner or later.
    Do me a favor, point out the bridge-building rules in D&D. Then cast a fireball in real life. Then ACKNOWLEDGE THAT D&D IS NOT REAL LIFE, AND IS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO FOLLOW ANY OR ALL OF THE RULES NORMALLY ASSOCIATED WITH REAL LIFE.

    In other words, your argument has no basis in RAW, and is thus disregarded as non-supportive opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    well then its good i dont argue against anything with raw basis either.
    Really?

    SRD:
    Spoiler
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    If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.


    Khaine Interpretation of SRD:
    Spoiler
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    If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks (or you have the Flurry of Blows class ability), you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses, or Flurry of Blows attack bonuses.


    Yup, exactly the same... Oh wait. They're not. Your interpretation seems to be inserting imaginary text into the SRD, and claiming it as RAW, just misunderstood.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    still not arguing against anything in raw either.
    See above.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    no, there is a standart number of hd for a dire lion, if you move above that its a totaly different crature, that you cant even be sure actualy exist in the world.
    Is it in Core? Yup. Is in in the SRD? Yup.
    Then it's no more or less likely to exist in the world than ANYTHING ELSE IN THE SRD, and your argument assumes homebrew removal of the text. HOMEBREW has nothing to do with RAW.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    no this is me arguing against the abuse of an allready partly broken class feature.
    Ah, again, either everything is balanced, or nothing is. You argue against what you feel to be broken, in your opinion. I'll argue against what is against RAW and SRD. This is why I have Win, and you have Fail.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Wrong, but i have allready answered this, so i will just refer to the above answer.
    Then I'm sure I've provided rebuttal showing why the above answer is completely flawed.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post

    FAQ says something different than SRD? If no, then all is well. If yes, then SRD is in error. PERIOD. End of discussion. Disagree all you like with that truth, but you're tilting with windmills if you do, Don Quixote.Ah, now that is a misperception. Also, please don't denigrate others with comments such as "you sound drunk". At least, don't do it to me. I don't appreciate it, and I suspect it borders on inflammatory.
    I'm amused.
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Worira View Post
    Do you really not see the problem with that line of reasoning? You're arguing that a wildshaping druid can be made useless with a 1st level spell.
    Actually, no. I'm saying a character that polymorphs into a creature gains the type, and can be made useless. Wildshape retains original type.

    Thus, a druid who is wildshaped into a dire tiger is still a legal target for Enlarge Person.
    Last edited by Talic; 2008-05-30 at 10:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Worira View Post
    Do you really not see the problem with that line of reasoning? You're arguing that a wildshaping druid can be made useless with a 1st level spell.
    Wrong. Wildshape does not say it changes your Type. Animal Shape does.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    if that was the case then she really isnt free to grapple to her hearts content.
    Sure she is. She can initiate grapples all day long.

    well apperently it count as the same check that startet the grapple.
    In Khaine land? Initiating a Grapple is not the same as an attack, nor is it the same as a grapple check.

    i suspect you know better, so clearly you are not a honest person.
    Actually, I'm not a liar, I just use sarcasm a lot. Thanks for calling me a liar tho!

    that really depends on the design of the first bridge.
    Right, so your statement that its not possible to use the same design is incorrect, isn't it?

    at level 13 you are still only summoning a large animal, and at level 13 you cant even turn into it yet, since it has 16 hd.
    Well, I can summon Gargantuan creatures, but the Dire Tiger is only 16HD, yes. You're saying its an absolute impossibility for me to postulate that there is something slightly (1HD) bigger than that, and try to summon it when I can to become familiar with?

    i cant see whats so hard to understand about this question, normal unarmed damage for a animal is the standart 1d3, scaled up for size, its covered in the faq page 95.
    There is literally no rule requiring me to use unarmed damage.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post

    There is literally no rule requiring me to use unarmed damage.
    If there are no rules for what damage to use at all, we must assume that you do no damage.

    Shall we assume unarmed damage for unarmed attacks?

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkyodor View Post
    The Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus as listed in Table:The Monk is a modified base attack bonus (specifically called this) as referenced under Flurry of Blows. This is the only character in the SRD that has 2 BaB's. One for normal actions, and one for Flurry of Blows actions.
    Right -- Its a FoB Attack Bonus, not a Base Attack Bonus. Monks dont have 2 Base Attack Bonuses, they have a BAB and a FoBAB.
    But the Text in Flurry of Blows refers to this as a modified base attack bonus. And since Text trumps Table... quod erat demonstrandum.

    Thanks for the pancake bunny.
    Last edited by Funkyodor; 2008-05-30 at 11:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Primary source only apply to sourcebooks, the Errata contains changes to those books, and the FAQ shows us when there are parts of the primary source that is being misunderstood.
    False.
    Spoiler
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    Errata Rule: Primary Sources
    When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules
    sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
    primary source is correct. One example of a
    primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over
    a table entry. An individual spell description takes
    precedence when the short description in the beginning
    of the spells chapter disagrees.
    Another example of primary vs. secondary sources
    involves book and topic precedence. The Player's
    Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing
    the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class
    descriptions. If you find something on one of those
    topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the
    Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's
    Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is
    the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the
    primary source for topics such as magic item
    descriptions, special material construction rules, and so
    on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for
    monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural,
    extraordinary, and spell-like abilities


    So PHB, DMG, and MM are Primary Sources when it comes to how to play the game. Only Errata can overrule them.

    nothing of double standart here, its the same standart applying to 2 different situations, try and read the FAQ about monsters grappling, they are covering a lion there.
    Finished searching for: Lion Total instances found: 0
    The only example in the FAQ is on page 95, and its using a bear.

    well then its good i dont argue against anything with raw basis either.
    Except you are. Grapple checks to do damage are explicitly not attacks. You get one for every attack your Base Attack Bonus would have allowed, even if you don't normally make multiple attacks in this manner. So a level 20 monk would get 3 attacks. It doesn't matter if you're hasted, using FoB, whatever.

    no, there is a standart number of hd for a dire lion, if you move above that its a totaly different crature, that you cant even be sure actualy exist in the world.
    Increased Hit Dice

    Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.
    So, taking the normal existence of a Dire Lion to me normal and run-of-the-mill, its impossible for there to be sure there aren't stronger, mor powerful ones?

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Funkyodor View Post
    But the Text in Flurry of Blows refers to this as a modified base attack bonus. And since Text trumps Table... quod erat demonstrandum.
    Modified BAB != BAB
    quod erat demonstrandum.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    If there are no rules for what damage to use at all, we must assume that you do no damage.

    Shall we assume unarmed damage for unarmed attacks?
    You misunderstood.

    There are two options to do damage in a grapple. One uses grapple checks to do unarmed damage.

    The other uses a to hit roll at -4 to do weapon damage.

    There is literally no rule requiring me to choose the first option.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Then stab away, my good friend.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Well, Talic, I do not know what got into you to try time and again to disprove that my joker build is viable.
    Usually, I go with FAQ beating/interpreting the SRD. And as funkyodor has pointed out, the flurry of blows refers even to BAB in the SRD. So yes, once more: you can flurry in a grapple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Really? level 1 rogue, level 19 monk will slightly lower monk abilities, but give rogue abilities to match, keeping combat ability roughly on par... That is, as long as you maintain that all classes are balanced, right?
    Oh yes...now that's great arguing. Let me see...the wizard hardly has any combat skills...which would make him very weak by your standards. See your error here?
    Once more: monk 20 - will achieve a certain mixture of anti-caster and monkish abilities. Rogue 1/monk 20 - will be stealthier, have better UMD, but will be weaker in combat and have lower monk abilities. It is highly situational to outright argue that the multiclass version beats the full class version.

    As its skills are superior to a monk's, and include the stealth and detection skill suites, then it's not going to harm stealth. With UMD as a class skill, it's going to make better use of your primary character ability.

    Sigh. UMD is NOT the primary character ability. It's an innovative idea, but not his major ability. I'd argue ALL of the monk's major abilities are at least as useful.

    This is much like asking whether or not rogue or barbarian is better for a Shock trooper build. Even if both are balanced, the barbarian's unique skills lend themselves more to power attack. Much as the rogue benefits your build more than monk, at level 1.

    Yes, you see, certain spells, feats and items will fit better with some concepts, some will fit better with others. The game is not so simple as you like to depict.

    Wrong. SRD contradicts this. SRD is primary source. The FAQ can tell you that monks get to roll 10d20 for their attacks, and choose the best one. It can tell you that monks get full casting progression of wizards. But if anything in the FAQ contradicts something in the SRD, then (and listen closely to this) the FAQ is wrong. Period. End of discussion.

    Well, that has been already answered adequately here (only Griffin131 a lone supporter of your course). The FAQ to my memory never directly opposes what the SRD says, it only clarifies different interpretations. And I wonder what Lord_Silvanos will say about this kind of opinion.

    No more FAQ sources to try to directly contradict SRD. Either pull your contradiction directly from Primary source, or acknowledge that, by Primary Source, monks can flurry in a grapple no more or less than animals can use all of their natural attacks in a grapple.

    Even that has also been done by Funkyodor. Check the SRD monk TEXT description of the flurry of blows ability.

    Flawed statistics. The following example character uses all 4 aspects above:
    Used 17 wands (all 50 charges)
    Used 39 scrolls
    Got 27 NPC spells cast for him (not combat buffs, as SRD defaults NPCs following you into combat as "no")
    Got 3 other PC's to waste 20 of their total actions casting spells on you.
    Drank 17 potions.


    Wait....you accuse me of "flawed statistics" and you make up stuff like this out of thin air? Oh my...
    There is a playtest going on RIGHT NOW, with YOU in it, where it appears that the Joker monk will, apparently, also use quite often other methods to obtain spell effects besides UMD, isn't there?.

    Now, by this, the character has done the following:
    889 uses of UMD
    27 npc spells
    60 PC buffs
    17 buffs without UMD.


    Yes, sure. EDIT: I would admit that UMD is used most often out of these variants, but not more than all three other methods combined. It adds to the joker monk's versatility, and thus it does not make him dependent on any one route, including UMD.

    Not 25%. Your build is reliant on UMD in a manner that requires it use UMD more than any other skill you list.

    Note that I posted already monk build variants WITHOUT using UMD.
    Plus, the key low-level spell effects that I see - enlarge, obscuring mist and silence - are all available from outside buffing or cheap magic items (horn of fog anyone?). And divine power at level 15 can be cast via a ring of spell storing.

    The only monk abilities you remotely try to synergize are movement, unarmed strike damage, and Flurry. Now, Unarmed Strike damage is, at best, a tradeoff. You give up the ability to enchant your weapon, and get enhanced damage. No real gain, just different flavor, and less versatility. Flurry has been shown to have its drawbacks as well. That leaves movement, which doesn't stack with UMD enhancement bonuses.

    And your personal new monk myth again. Why is it so hard to see the spells that snyergise greatly with the monk? "Remotely..."?
    Well, there is one great movement spell that you seem to forget which STACKS with the monk's movemenht. It's called "fly."

    If the two most primary spells you use are Enlarge Person and Expeditious retreat, then the character class that gets the greatest benefit from this style of build is the BARBARIAN.

    Yes and No. The barbarian can ALSO get great benefit of these spells, but certainly not more out of enlarge (note though that the barbarian needs a DEX of 15 to make use of improved grapple when enlarged and an INT of 13 for improved trip attacks. Sounds like the half-orc STR 20 barbarian is a bit tough to achieve on that with a typical 28-point buy.)
    And, btw, expeditious retreat is a 1 min/lvl spell - which, when we're talking movement, is a bit at a disadvantage vs the monk's 24/7 enhancement bonus.
    So the only thing you HAVE inspired me with here is a barbarian 1/monk 19 build (actually, I'll add this to the example builds in the guide), since the movement of the barbarian stacks with the monk enhancement bonus (still, it's reduced to nil importance with a flying effect up, since the barbarian's movement boost is land speed only).

    Increased size gets reach and damage, one first level spell puts even a moderate level barbarian's movement on par with the movement of a level 14 monk,

    Wrong. By level 14, the monk has boots of flying likely, netting 100ft move.

    and rage is a combat ability which is at least on par with Flurry.

    Well, actually, by now I would argue that rage beats flurry at low levels (including for grapple tactics), but gets behind at higher levels (in particular when the flurry penalties vanish and the 2nd flurry bonus attack arrives).

    Enhance the concept with a haste weapon, or boots of haste, and suddenly we have a character that has class abilities that synergize better with UMD than monk (barbarian's movement boost is not enhancement bonus, damage with weapons increases with size, as does strength, synergizing with rage).

    So many mistakes...where do I start?
    OK, one by one.
    1) Haste does not stack with expeditious retreat. Both are enhancement bonuses.
    2) Babarian's move boost is land speed only. Not as useful any more at higher levels, in particular vs the flying caster enemies (combating those is what the joker monk is about, remember?)
    3) There is no medium-sized weapon that does 2d10 base damage in the core rules. Thus, the monk's base damage before size increases always is ahead of the barbarian's weapon (plus, the monk's base damage die gets enhanced by a monk's belt and the INA feat, and all morhping effects while the barbarian's greatsword does not).
    4) And STR enhancements benefit both equally.

    Examples 1, 4, and 5 are shown to benefit the barbarian more.

    Well, you have tried to show 1 (enlarge, key word: barbarian MAD) and failed. 4 and 5 (silence and AMF) depend in part on UMF (AMF actually fully, no-one can cast this on you but yourself). Something tells me the great grappling barbarian having to spend 100% of his feats at 1st level to even get improved grapple will not likely choose the two feats for boosting UMD as the monk did (who received improved grapple as a bonus feat).
    Then, look again at the skill set and the lower move of the barbarian. What makes you think that it is the BARBARIAN that will use the AMF and silence tactics at high levels better than the monk?
    And finally, in case the barbarian uses AMF only to outgrapple the monk, there are two things to say
    1) this is highly cost-inefficient since he already has a good chance at direct combat vs the monk with two handed weapons and POWER ATTACK (which is normally the best combat tactics route for a barbarian, not grappling).
    2) since the monk outclasses the barbarian at the spot/hide/listen/move silently game, it is quite unlikely that it will be the barbarian knowing when to cast AMF ahead of the monk taking countermeasures (like simply outmaneouvering the barbarian who cast AMF, easily recognisable by the joker monk's spellcraft check).

    Option 2 is non-cost effective, and equal to both.

    No, as I showed above, flying benefits the monk more (his movement boost stacks with fly, while the barbarian's does not).

    Option 3 is non cost-effective for regular use at any level before 17, relegating Divine Power as a high level tactic, at best, not a core build argument.

    Why then, in my example build in the guide above, it is entirely possible to already have divine power up regularly from level 15 (and possibly by level 9 in some circumstances?). Try to squirm around it as you like: divine power benefits the monk most, and sends him right into melee stratosphere at high levels where fighter, rogue and barbarian roam.

    Option 5 is not cost effective for regular use.

    Oh, for 1,650 gold at high levels to get a really good chance vs super casters? It's not that expensive. And definitely highly effective.

    So the only argument you have is 6) Mage armor. Divine power and Mage armor are listed as synergizing with a monk's features. Those "features" are lower BAB and no armor. Sounds a lot like when Microsoft calls glitches and bugs "security features".Nice.

    No, these "features" are
    1) mage armour - getting an armour bonus of +4 WITHOUT incurring any skill penalties from armour like the equivalent chain shirt. The light-armour fraction is a at a disadvantage here (note that this mage armour is a force armour, weighs nothing, and helps vs incorporal attacks, stacking nicely with the already present DEX/WIS/monk AC bonus - simply ask Solo about its great use)
    2) divine power - can I say...flurry? Yes, I can. With divine power and flurry the monk gets most BAB-based attacks in the game, and 3 at the highest attack bonus to boost. Even better than the druid using divine power. Yep, that's synergy.

    Now explain how you're getting the DC 35 UMD check for that scroll reliably.

    Reliably? Hmmm....I could pinpoint you to the part of my guide that explains that, but I'll repeat it here.
    Animal Shapes is an hour/level buff. At the levels we are talking about this is up quite long.
    So this is what happens:
    1) either get a pc/npc to buff you (note how you again do not need UMD here) OR
    2) use two scrolls and check as often as you like until you roll a "35" (ah, and the check is 33 btw, since animal shapes can be UMDed as a 7th level cleric animal domain spell; funnily, the UMD joker monk gets it earler than the druid...).

    Again, based on 1 small detail... The fact that, to do this 100% of the time, you need a +34 UMD.

    ? UMD +34 or +35 now? It does not matter...
    No, actually, the monk only needs a +13 modifier and some minutea and backup scroll (in case he rolls a "1" first) to try again and again until he rolls a "20" to get the animal shapes scroll activated for 11 hours minimum duration.

    It's nice to pull whatever you need, whenever you need it,

    Yes, true. That's what the joker monk is about.

    but, assuming that you have an 18 charisma, 11 ranks, a +6 cha item, 5 stat boosts in cha, a +5 inherent to cha from a book, +2 from a UMD item, and +5 from skill focus and magical aptitude... well, that's still only a +30.


    Well, and that still shows you have not understood my explanation in the guide. I kindly ask you to read it again.

    And that's pretty well fully optimized for core. And with all that, you STILL have a 20% chance of failing that scroll.

    Yep. Horrible. Try again next round.

    Now, your joker build typically goes with an 8-10 charisma, by your guide, and no stat boosts into cha, dropping you 6 points, for a 50/50 viability. As is, your Joker monk has a 25% chance of pulling it off, with a scant +19 to grapple.

    Yep. See above.

    So here's how it goes down.
    Of course I corrected the spoiler to how it really will play out...couldn't resist...
    Spoiler
    Show

    Monk: I animal shape!
    Yep, hours before the fight.
    DM: Fail.
    Nope, success!
    Druid: I cast shapeshift, turning into a gargantuan Roc.
    Oopsey, not possible. A druid cannot turn into a gargantuan creature with wildshape.
    DM: ok.
    DM (thinks, oh my, this druid player does not even know his class abilities)
    Monk: I animal shape!
    No need, it's already up. The correct tactics: Charge x100feet and grapple! Tumble past the animal companion.
    DM: Ok, you get it this time.
    Monk: thanks, but I don't need to! (rolls to pin druid)
    Druid: I cast hide from animals, sharing with my animal companion, then move.
    DM: er...who do you hide from now? From your own animal companion? Well, you can no longer handle it, since it ignores you. Great. Monk does a grapple flurry against you, doing XX damage. You die.
    Monk: I attack!
    No more need, but it sounds cool! Ah, the monk could attack the confused animal companion at leisure- since the druid died, it no longer has the benefits of anything. Likely it will run simply away.
    DM: you can't locate him.
    No...er, actually, the druid even in case he knew what he was doing beforehand would not likely have been able to notice, much less locate the stealthy monk hiding within partial range before.
    Monk: What!?
    Yes, incredible how easy it was to overcome that druid.
    DM: you're an animal right now, by hide from animals you can't use any sense to locate him.
    Nope, I do not change type with a morph-like spell.
    Monk: I run to wait out his buff!
    Good idea, except it's no use. The druid is dead and his animal companion ran away, free at last.


    Note: Above, I portrayed the Joker monk as being lucky, as there's only 1 failure listed, although the odds of failure are 75%.

    No, you portrayed a duel without any idea how such a duel plays out.

    Wrong.

    Yes, I should have written that a monk outdamages a druid when grappling "much faster".

    Actually... No, it doesn't. Wildshape requires familiarity. Shapechange does not.

    Let me assist you...
    SRD, shapechange excerpt: "You can become just about anything you are familiar with."

    As for the last UMD? For scrolls of shapechange?
    DC 37 UMD,


    DC 37? The joker monk gets by with a +17 then (check out my guide again how it is done. Shapechange is 10 min/lvl. With a rod of greater extend, not unaffordable at those levels, we are looking at almost 6 hours duration here. Yes, the joker monk likely has it up, if he likes to.)

    and over 3k a pop. For enough to use 14 times (1 level's worth of adventures), this one will run you a whopping 65,025 gp. That's approaching 10% of a level 20's full wealth.

    Yes, if you would cast it all the time. Luckily, a polymorph any object at level 20 is all the joker monk needs to get all the outsider goodies up to 15 HD. And only for that rare ancient gold dragon grappling match, the joker monk whips out the shapechange cheese.
    Once more: the joker monk is a caster bane, not a shapechanger. He'll use AMF at high levels, not shapechange (though he could easily once it's allowed by a DM tolerant of morph cheese).

    Not to mention your level 20 Joker build has a total of a whopping +19 to UMD, requiring aroll of 18 to use shapechange, a roll of 16 to use animal shapes, and a roll of 12 to use the AMF that you've been touting.

    Well, let us have a look at AMF, shall we (since that is the only spell that COULD maybe necessitate an in-combat activation at high levels), though when scouting through this thread OR the guide you'll find a high-level tactics around that I already explained).
    Level 20 joker I posted has +19 UMD. Actually, it can easily be raised to +21 UMD with higher cross-class skills (which I omitted, being lazy about it, due to the AMF trick mentioned).
    Then, at this level, with that kind of disposable cash, let us assume the joker monk bought a rod of splendour to celebrate his greatness. Another +2 to his check.
    Now we are at +23.
    Then, he got 5 ranks of spellcraft which happens to boost his scroll UMD by +2.
    Now we are at +25
    Then, some of his diplomacy skill points can easily be diverted to get decipher script to 5 ranks cross-class for another +2 synergy bonus.
    Now we are at +27.
    And...(drums...fanfare...) TADAA. Now we use a wand of greater heroism. For +4 moral bonus to skill checks.
    Voila
    +31 UMD check. Enough to activate an AMF safely in combat. Already from level 17. Which happens to be the level where AMF is really golden vs some of the nastier 9th level spell tricks.

    This is what is defined as "fail".

    Yep, a true own goal, Talic. Your post contained more mistakes than even any posts of Reel on, Love, that I remember (and that includes his famous "wizards are uber due to fly/invisiblity/enervation-vs-all-CR7-9-monsters-post").

    - Giacomo
    Last edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-05-30 at 04:27 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #864
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Well, Talic, I do not know what got into you to try time and again to disprove that my joker build is viable.
    Usually, I go with FAQ beating/interpreting the SRD. And as funkyodor has pointed out, the flurry of blows refers even to BAB in the SRD. So yes, once more: you can flurry in a grapple.
    FoBAB != BAB. So yeah, you can flurry in a grapple but it doesn't benefit you at all. You get as many grapple actions as you would attacks based off of your Base Attack Bonus. At level 20, thats 3, 4 if you're Divine Powered. Haste doesn't matter, TWF doesn't matter, FoB doesn't matter. Only things that change your Base Attack Bonus matter.

    So yes, once more: you can flurry in a grapple, but you gain no benefit.

  25. - Top - End - #865
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Yep, a true own goal, Talic. Your post contained more mistakes than even any posts of Reel on, Love, that I remember (and that includes his famous "wizards are uber due to fly/invisiblity/enervation-vs-all-CR7-9-monsters-post").
    Amazing, then, how your post contains more mistakes than both of Talic's and Reel's combined... most of them repeated from earlier posts, but still.

    Anyway, you have about a year until either 4E's PHB2 features a monk, or Paizo's Pathfinder is officially released with a fixed monk. I think a year is not too long to wait to finally get a viable version again of this ancient base class. But in the meantime you'll have to contend with it being trounced by 40% of the NPC classes.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Wand of Greater Heroism? How're you gonna make a wand of a *6th level spell*? It's 5th for bards, so still no go.

    But even if you could, it'd cost 20k.
    And the Rod of Splendor (which doesn't stack with a Cloak of Charisma) costs 25k. And you're dumping 10 skill points into Decipher script, 10 into spellcraft (if you weren't already), killing your skills even further.

    So to use it on a regular basis, you'd need to buy all those scrolls, ANOTHER wand (5th level, which is impossible), a Rod of Splendor (which doesn't stack)...
    Sorry. Even with the skill point diversion, you're stuck at +23, needing to roll a 14.

    You talk like you always have more money to spend, Giacomo, but you've been spending it like water on all those wands. A Wand of Heroism might boost your UMD checks by 2, but it costs 11,000 gp! Your strategy consists of "throw money at it until I win". That's not a workable strategy. And because you spend so much of your money on consumables, if your charcter doesn't get to prepare, he either dies or runs away (and contributes nothing). And he will NOT always, or even usually, get to prepare.

    Try a monk like this in a real campaign, Giacomo. You'll see how hard it fails soon enough. "What do you MEAN I don't have any more money?" "What do you MEAN we don't get 5 prep rounds?"

    Watching you struggle and try to solve all your problems by throwing more gold at them (and not accounting for it) is funny.
    Last edited by Reel On, Love; 2008-05-30 at 04:36 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #867
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    FoBAB != BAB. So yeah, you can flurry in a grapple but it doesn't benefit you at all. You get as many grapple actions as you would attacks based off of your Base Attack Bonus. At level 20, thats 3, 4 if you're Divine Powered. Haste doesn't matter, TWF doesn't matter, FoB doesn't matter. Only things that change your Base Attack Bonus matter.

    So yes, once more: you can flurry in a grapple, but you gain no benefit.
    Wow, that's new. You admit that you have been wrong all the time and now you maintain it's no benefit for the monk?

    Divine power gives you BAB +16 at level 16. That is 4 iterative attacks (+16/+11/+6/+1). ADD to this the two flurry attacks at HIGHEST level and, yes, that's what I'd call a benefit...

    - Giacomo

  28. - Top - End - #868
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Wow, that's new. You admit that you have been wrong all the time and now you maintain it's no benefit for the monk?
    Not really wrong, just misstating my point. Which you ignored.

    Divine power gives you BAB +16 at level 16. That is 4 iterative attacks (+16/+11/+6/+1). ADD to this the two flurry attacks at HIGHEST level and, yes, that's what I'd call a benefit...
    It would be a benefit if it did anything. You get grapple actions based on your Base Attack Bonus. Using FoB does not change your Base Attack Bonus. Therefore, it does not give you extra attacks. And I can use mocking smileys too, watch!

  29. - Top - End - #869
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Wand of Greater Heroism? How're you gonna make a wand of a *6th level spell*? It's 5th for bards, so still no go.
    Oops, my bad. I got punished immediately for speaking ill of you, sorry

    Anyhow, you achieve the same effect for level 20 with a regular wand of heroism and a +6 CHR enhancement bonus and 2 inherent CHR points (just get the rod of splendour for the weekly tent then...). Or get a bard...

    But even if you could, it'd cost 20k.
    And the Rod of Splendor (which doesn't stack with a Cloak of Charisma) costs 25k.


    20k at level 20 is not really an issue. And for a wand of heroism, it's actually only 6,000.
    Rod of splendour is does not need to stack, see above.

    And you're dumping 10 skill points into Decipher script, 10 into spellcraft (if you weren't already), killing your skills even further.

    Well, at high levels, I was at a loss what to spend the remaining points for - spellcraft was already raised to good effect to rank 5 by level 7.

    So to use it on a regular basis, you'd need to buy all those scrolls, ANOTHER wand (5th level, which is impossible),

    Yes, hence the wand of simple heroism.

    a Rod of Splendor (which doesn't stack)...
    Sorry. Even with the skill point diversion, you're stuck at +23, needing to roll a 14.


    No, I'm still nicely up there at +31 UMD.

    You talk like you always have more money to spend, Giacomo,

    At high levels it's not that much of an issue.

    but you've been spending it like water on all those wands. A Wand of Heroism might boost your UMD checks by 2, but it costs 11,000 gp!

    At high levels (the kind where 9th level spells fly around) not much of an issue. And continuing to repeat your wrong conclusion that being able to cast 1000 1st level spells until level 10, and many, many more above that is not enough does not get this thread anywhere.

    Your strategy consists of "throw money at it until I win". That's not a workable strategy. And because you spend so much of your money on consumables, if your charcter doesn't get to prepare, he either dies or runs away (and contributes nothing). And he will NOT always, or even usually, get to prepare.

    Your objection consists of "Horrors! He makes use of his wbl differenty than buying SUCKING amulets of might fists and bracers of armour".
    And he will ALWAYS, ALWAYS get to prepare the longer-lasting spells. Just like Batman does. Well, whether he can keep them for long at those levels vs AMFs, dispels, mage's disjunction, is an entirely different matter (although once again, there are countermeasures to those again - something when reading my guide will get obvious).

    Try a monk like this in a real campaign, Giacomo. You'll see how hard it fails soon enough. "What do you MEAN I don't have any more money?" "What do you MEAN we don't get 5 prep rounds?"

    Sigh. 5 prep rounds are not needed except in SOME circumstances, where they will not matter (enough time available due to longer-lasting buff). Explained again and again.

    - Giacomo

  30. - Top - End - #870
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    It would be a benefit if it did anything. You get grapple actions based on your Base Attack Bonus. Using FoB does not change your Base Attack Bonus. Therefore, it does not give you extra attacks. And I can use mocking smileys too, watch!
    Well, where did I ever maintain that fob raises your BAB? Divine power does this...(not finding correct smiley to express utter confusion).

    This maybe helps
    Spoiler
    Show

    Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
    When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
    In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
    When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.


    - Giacomo

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