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  1. - Top - End - #871
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Amazing, then, how your post contains more mistakes than both of Talic's and Reel's combined... most of them repeated from earlier posts, but still.
    Amazing then that you always only maintain stuff, but never back it up. And only to jump in for some short comment meant to be funny and then leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Anyway, you have about a year until either 4E's PHB2 features a monk, or Paizo's Pathfinder is officially released with a fixed monk. I think a year is not too long to wait to finally get a viable version again of this ancient base class. But in the meantime you'll have to contend with it being trounced by 40% of the NPC classes.
    Ah I see, instead of admitting you're wrong you now point to 4th edition making this discussion obsolete, anyhow. Nice try.

    - Giacomo

    EDIT: come on, Kurald Galain - even the worst monk hater should admit that Talic made incredibly many wrong assumptions and mistakes trying to support his opinion. Look at his post again, pls!
    Last edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-05-30 at 04:58 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #872
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Try a monk like this in a real campaign, Giacomo. You'll see how hard it fails soon enough. "What do you MEAN I don't have any more money?" "What do you MEAN we don't get 5 prep rounds?"

    Watching you struggle and try to solve all your problems by throwing more gold at them (and not accounting for it) is funny.
    Yep. To reiterate a point that SG missed or ignored -- playing at level ten, the party turns a corner in the dungeon and comes face to face with a horde of ugly green things.

    Round one. Rogue throws a dagger with sneak attack; fighter charges; wizard casts greater invis on the rogue; cleric casts prayer; gonk uses a wand of heroism on himself.

    Round two. Rogue wades into melee, invisible, and starts stabbing; fighter full attacks with cleave; wizard casts black tentacles and quickened grease; cleric casts quickened divine favor and attacks; gonk uses a wand of eagle's splendour, but fails his check.

    Round three. Rogue, fighter, and cleric keep mashing the UGTs; wizard casts haste. Gonk uses the wand of eagle's splendour again, succeeding this time. Now the gonk can use wands with a 100% success rate for the next five minutes, or until hit by a dispel magic, whichever comes first.

    Round four. More melee, supported by wizard artillery. Gonk takes out a wand of enlarge, another of those nifty one-encounter buff spells.

    Round five. Gonk finishes his buff sequence by casting Blink on himself, just as the fighter finishes his battle sequence by slicing the last UGT in half. Ah, another encounter well-fought, with shining examples of teamwork, and the gonk never failed a single grapple check. Gonk fires a few shots of his CLW wand so that the cleric doesn't have to waste his spell slots. And the party travels on.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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  3. - Top - End - #873
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Oops, my bad. I got punished immediately for speaking ill of you, sorry

    Anyhow, you achieve the same effect for level 20 with a regular wand of heroism and a +6 CHR enhancement bonus and 2 inherent CHR points (just get the rod of splendour for the weekly tent then...). Or get a bard...
    Yeah. Tht works. Except that's 6k, +36k for the cloak, +55k for the +2 Tome. That's almost 100k already! Given how much you spend on consumables as you level up, you don't have 100k *free*. Not unless you want to start doing without basic AC boosters, Freedom of Movement, flight, save boosters, etc etc.

    20k at level 20 is not really an issue. And for a wand of heroism, it's actually only 6,000.
    Rod of splendour is does not need to stack, see above.
    20k isn't much of an issue. 20k, then 20 morek, then etc etc IS an issue. 20k repeatedly throughout your career is a BIG issue. How many wands have you used up by level 20? A lot. More than you can afford to.

    Well, at high levels, I was at a loss what to spend the remaining points for - spellcraft was already raised to good effect to rank 5 by level 7.
    sdkjfhsdfkjhfds

    so

    so now you're claiming you have TOO MANY skill points.
    You can't even get all the skills you used to talk about monks having... but somehow you have too MANY skill points.
    That's MAGICAL stuff right there.

    Yes, hence the wand of simple heroism.
    Which you must've used 10 of by now.

    No, I'm still nicely up there at +31 UMD.
    Not really, since you can't *afford* all that stuff all the time.

    At high levels it's not that much of an issue.
    You only say that because YOU DON'T TRACK YOUR CONTINUOUS EXPENDITURES.

    At high levels (the kind where 9th level spells fly around) not much of an issue. And continuing to repeat your wrong conclusion that being able to cast 1000 1st level spells until level 10, and many, many more above that is not enough does not get this thread anywhere.
    You need much more than 1st-level spells, Giacomo. You need to use a 3rd-level wand just to make sure that you can use your first-level wand in combat! You keep talking about all these wands and pretending the cost doesn't add up.

    Using Enlarge all the time is financially feasible, if that's ALL you do. Using Enlarge, Heroism, and Blink all the time--at 10th level, no less!--is NOT, no matter what.

    Your objection consists of "Horrors! He makes use of his wbl differenty than buying SUCKING amulets of might fists and bracers of armour".
    And he will ALWAYS, ALWAYS get to prepare the longer-lasting spells. Just like Batman does. Well, whether he can keep them for long at those levels vs AMFs, dispels, mage's disjunction, is an entirely different matter (although once again, there are countermeasures to those again - something when reading my guide will get obvious).
    No. You need to know you're going to need the spell. You don't know whether you're going to need the spell. Unless you just randomly activate things at random times? You won't have it when you need it.

    The objection isn't that you make use of your WBL differently, it's that you spend more than you *have*, and don't account for basic gear, either. Do you really want to do without a cloak of +5 saves in favor of another level 4 wand? Do you really want to do without +5 deflection AC in favor of having 50k free for wands?
    Probably not. And if you do, you're just setting yourself further back, and screwing yourself even further whenever you don't get to buff at your leisure (that is, in most fights).

    Sigh. 5 prep rounds are not needed except in SOME circumstances, where they will not matter (enough time available due to longer-lasting buff). Explained again and again.

    - Giacomo
    Uh-huh. I must have missed what your monk looks like unbuffed.
    Last edited by Reel On, Love; 2008-05-30 at 05:04 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #874
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Well, where did I ever maintain that fob raises your BAB? Divine power does this...(not finding correct smiley to express utter confusion).
    I never said you said that. I said that using FoB does nothing for you, as you are limited by your Base Attack Bonus as to how many grapple checks you can make. Getting another attack does nothing for you. Grapple Checks != Attacks, as the FAQ states. And the SRD says definitively (which the FAQ supports) that you get 1 Grapple Check action for every attack that your Base Attack Bonus gives you.

    This maybe helps
    Not at all really -- because it doesn't address the fact that your Base Attack Bonus doesn't change, which is all that matters in a Grapple.

  5. - Top - End - #875
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Yep. To reiterate a point that SG missed or ignored -- playing at level ten, the party turns a corner in the dungeon and comes face to face with a horde of ugly green things.
    Well, you now just negated many of the rogue's and monk's class abilities (stealthiness), but let us assume that a situation comes up where noone has the surprise.

    Round one. Rogue throws a dagger with sneak attack; fighter charges; wizard casts greater invis on the rogue; cleric casts prayer; gonk uses a wand of heroism on himself.

    No, at level 10 you''ll probably have realised that the joker monk will use the eversmoking bottle, if the situation looks ugly. Hmmm...OK, maybe the ugly green things look surmountable.
    Then he'll use enlarge with an 80% chance (90% in case he had cast extended heroism before).

    [b]Round two[/b]. Rogue wades into melee, invisible, and starts stabbing; fighter full attacks with cleave; wizard casts black tentacles and quickened grease; cleric casts quickened divine favor and attacks; gonk uses a wand of eagle's splendour, but fails his check.

    Nope, the joker monk grapples the worst opponent, opening up plenty of sneak attacks for the rogue without the need to have cast an improved invisiblity on the rogue first. So, the wizard in my joker monk scenario would have been able to cast black tentacles already in the first round (or get himself to safety/get a wall up/concealment up/whatever.

    Round three. Rogue, fighter, and cleric keep mashing the UGTs; wizard casts haste. Gonk uses the wand of eagle's splendour again, succeeding this time. Now the gonk can use wands with a 100% success rate for the next five minutes, or until hit by a dispel magic, whichever comes first.

    In round 3, the joker monk has either pinned an opponent already. Or, if the opponent is "many huge green things" (sounds like above CR to me, but anyhow), then he'll have used the bottle, effectively blinding the opponent, giving his comrades opportunity to move out of the smoke area before (waiting to snipe of the confused green monsters staggering out).
    And before you maintain the anyone could use the bottle: yes, but the joker monk has the best synergies with it with blind-fight and his high move (plus, he does not need sneak in this concealment situation).

    Round four. More melee, supported by wizard artillery. Gonk takes out a wand of enlarge, another of those nifty one-encounter buff spells.

    Why now, and not at the beginning? Even if the joker monk does not have enough UMD to activate safely, why should it take him four rounds to get the enlarge effect up? Please explain.

    Round five. Gonk finishes his buff sequence by casting Blink on himself, just as the fighter finishes his battle sequence by slicing the last UGT in half. Ah, another encounter well-fought, with shining examples of teamwork, and the gonk never failed a single grapple check. Gonk fires a few shots of his CLW wand so that the cleric doesn't have to waste his spell slots. And the party travels on

    Complete nonsense.
    - the monk would never use a blink charge at the moment where the combat is already almost decided. Not even a caster regaining it overnight would do that.
    - in case the UGT is huge (the only size negating likely the monk's grapple), I have somehow a doubt that the fighter will have sliced through all of them in 5 rounds
    - CLW at those levels will be used in combat to stabilise fallen comrades with higher move and tumble in case the cleric cannot get there.

    Well, thanks Kurald Galain, for enlightening me why you never post more detailed post. This strange scenario of yours tells me all.

    - Giacomo

  6. - Top - End - #876
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    I never said you said that. I said that using FoB does nothing for you, as you are limited by your Base Attack Bonus as to how many grapple checks you can make. Getting another attack does nothing for you. Grapple Checks != Attacks, as the FAQ states. And the SRD says definitively (which the FAQ supports) that you get 1 Grapple Check action for every attack that your Base Attack Bonus gives you.


    Not at all really -- because it doesn't address the fact that your Base Attack Bonus doesn't change, which is all that matters in a Grapple.
    Ah OK sorry, I thought by now you were convinced of the SRD and FAQ entries. Apparently you are not.

    In that case, I can, of course, not convince you.

    - Giacomo

  7. - Top - End - #877
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Actually, no. I'm saying a character that polymorphs into a creature gains the type, and can be made useless. Wildshape retains original type.

    Thus, a druid who is wildshaped into a dire tiger is still a legal target for Enlarge Person.
    This is factually incorrect. Animal Shapes references Alternate Form, which retains the types and subtypes of the original form.

    Also, Giacomo, still waiting on your monk's statistics in an AMF.
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  8. - Top - End - #878
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    For the record, Giacomo: any strategy that assumes you won't sometimes have to fight things above your CR--rather regularly, even; with an optimized party, maybe even *most of the time*--is doomed to failure.

    The monk grapples one opponent. Assuming he wins, (a grapple check at +1 over the enemy is NOT any kind of guarantee for the kind of consistent several-in-a-row victory pinning requires!), two others stab him in the spleen.
    Last edited by Reel On, Love; 2008-05-30 at 05:29 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #879
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Yeah. Tht works. Except that's 6k, +36k for the cloak, +55k for the +2 Tome. That's almost 100k already! Given how much you spend on consumables as you level up, you don't have 100k *free*. Not unless you want to start doing without basic AC boosters, Freedom of Movement, flight, save boosters, etc etc.
    Almost 100k already out of 760! wohooooo! Look at my level 20 build again.

    20k isn't much of an issue. 20k, then 20 morek, then etc etc IS an issue. 20k repeatedly throughout your career is a BIG issue. How many wands have you used up by level 20? A lot. More than you can afford to.

    You keep maintaining it and ignore the facts displayed already throughout the thread to you. Example level 15-20. How again can 50 (fitfty!!) uses of divine power not be enough for those occasions where you fight a full melee encounter vs melee creatures as a monk?

    sdkjfhsdfkjhfds

    so

    so now you're claiming you have TOO MANY skill points.
    You can't even get all the skills you used to talk about monks having... but somehow you have too MANY skill points.
    That's MAGICAL stuff right there.


    Sigh. Read the build again. You are probably among those who maintain diplomacy cannot be used the way I would think it should. So in those cases, replace the diplomacy points with decipher script and some UMD. Do not try to blow things out of proportions here. You are arguing my build is flawed because there may be the slight chance that I'd rather have diplomacy a bit higher, meaning +29 instead of +31 UMD, neutering COMPLETELY AMF tactics? Come on, Reel on, Love. This is desperate.


    Which you must've used 10 of by now.

    10 would mean 500 encounters. Wow. Assuming I use it from around level 4-6, and 14 encounters per level, it looks like...you're wrong again!? 16x14 means 224 encounters from level 4-20.
    Meaning only around 4x6,000 for 24,000 gold. Yep, that's a big if, really.

    Not really, since you can't *afford* all that stuff all the time.

    Yes, try to accept it. I CAN AFFORD it ALL THE TIME.

    You only say that because YOU DON'T TRACK YOUR CONTINUOUS EXPENDITURES.

    Read my build again, pls.

    You need much more than 1st-level spells, Giacomo. You need to use a 3rd-level wand just to make sure that you can use your first-level wand in combat! You keep talking about all these wands and pretending the cost doesn't add up.

    Heroism is a 2nd level bard spell. I pretend nothing, I have proven repeated times that the wand budget will be enough to cover the whole joker monk concept from levels 2-20.

    Using Enlarge all the time is financially feasible, if that's ALL you do. Using Enlarge, Heroism, and Blink all the time--at 10th level, no less!--is NOT, no matter what.

    Nobody ever said that I use all those spells all the time. Why should I use blink all the time, hampering my grapple and flurry? What are you assuming here? That the joker monk is a complete idiot?

    No. You need to know you're going to need the spell. You don't know whether you're going to need the spell. Unless you just randomly activate things at random times? You won't have it when you need it.

    But yes, often I will. This is where the stealthy part comes in so handy. You realise there's an encounter coming up normally before your enemy does.

    The objection isn't that you make use of your WBL differently, it's that you spend more than you *have*, and don't account for basic gear, either. Do you really want to do without a cloak of +5 saves in favor of another level 4 wand? Do you really want to do without +5 deflection AC in favor of having 50k free for wands?

    Yes. Pls read again my build.

    Probably not. And if you do, you're just setting yourself further back, and screwing yourself even further whenever you don't get to buff at your leisure (that is, in most fights).

    Guys, what are you talking about here?
    There are only three possibilities
    1) you would love to play monks, but are taken aback by apparent weaknesses in the class. For you, my build offers good ideas and you should THANK me and try to find WITH ME the stuff that make monks great
    OR
    2) you hate the whole monk class concept for reason I do not understand.
    OR
    3) you hate admitting you have been wrong all the time.

    Uh-huh. I must have missed what your monk looks like unbuffed.

    That can be easily fixed. Just read my monk build again. And if you think a character class is only viable when walking around unbuffed, just forget about ever playing an arcane caster.

    - Giacomo

  10. - Top - End - #880
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    I never said you said that. I said that using FoB does nothing for you, as you are limited by your Base Attack Bonus as to how many grapple checks you can make. Getting another attack does nothing for you. Grapple Checks != Attacks, as the FAQ states. And the SRD says definitively (which the FAQ supports) that you get 1 Grapple Check action for every attack that your Base Attack Bonus gives you.
    To further clarify, you can initiate a grapple as part of a flurry, but once you do so, the grapple proceeds normally (which means you forfeit any additional uses of flurry). The monk can still use this to his advantage, but only if the grapple is done last (i.e., attack/trip/disarm, then grapple).


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  11. - Top - End - #881
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    For the record, Giacomo: any strategy that assumes you won't sometimes have to fight things above your CR--rather regularly, even; with an optimized party, maybe even *most of the time*--is doomed to failure.

    The monk grapples one opponent. Assuming he wins, (a grapple check at +1 over the enemy is NOT any kind of guarantee for the kind of consistent several-in-a-row victory pinning requires!), two others stab him in the spleen.
    And where again are the "two others" coming from in your "above your CR" scenario? Higher number of opponents than that of the party tends to add up to the CR, you realise that, don't you?

    Show me the optimised rogue/fighter/wizard/cleric party of, say, levels 1,5 and 10 that is able to "regularly" fight above their CR encounters and survive?

    - Giacomo

  12. - Top - End - #882
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Worira View Post
    Also, Giacomo, still waiting on your monk's statistics in an AMF.
    Check out the joker monk build of the guide above for the level that interests you.
    Note that the AMF will only be used when a spelluser is in range for a lock, not for normal "adventuring" as a default (which would be stupid).

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Level 2: 5 Enlarge, 5 Cure Light Wounds 150gp -- ignoring the fact that either of these wands is more than the 25% limit, and both together are over 100% of the WBL
    Level 3: 14 Enlarge, 210gp, 14 Cure Light Wounds, 210gp, 5 uses of Obscuring Mist, 75gp -- again, all over 25%
    Level 4: 14 Enlarge, 210gp, 14 Cure Light Wounds, 210gp, 7 uses of Obscuring Mist, 105gp -- Now each wand is under the 25% guideline.
    Level 5: 14 Enlarge, 210gp, 14 Cure Light Wounds, 210gp, 3 Random Level 2 Spell, 270gp, 1 Random Level 3 spell, 225gp
    Pausing here for a moment -- The Level 3 wand Gia suggests you buy at this level is not only a) above the 25% WBL guideline he is so faithfully adhering to its also more than your entire WBL at this level. The second level wand he reccomends is half of your WBL. Ignoring those two, so far he's spent 1590gp.

    Level 6: The playtest version. You guys let him get away with partially charged wands? :-/

    In fact... it looks like hes still using partial costs for everything. I thought we had come to the agreement that you can't do that.

  14. - Top - End - #884
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Ah OK sorry, I thought by now you were convinced of the SRD and FAQ entries. Apparently you are not.
    I am absolutely convinced. The SRD says you can grapple to your hearts content -- its 100% true. You can use the Grapple Special attack in a flurry to your hearts content. Need me to link you to what that is?

    In that case, I can, of course, not convince you.
    So... I win?

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Guys, what are you talking about here?
    There are only three possibilities
    1) you would love to play monks, but are taken aback by apparent weaknesses in the class. For you, my build offers good ideas and you should THANK me and try to find WITH ME the stuff that make monks great
    OR
    2) you hate the whole monk class concept for reason I do not understand.
    OR
    3) you hate admitting you have been wrong all the time.
    I love to play monks. I am taken aback by someone who thinks that a Grapple+UMD build is revolutionary, and that only monks can accomplish this. The truth is, Grappling is a weak choice overall (in my opinion) and many other classes can UMD to better effect.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    ...(detailing partial wands all below 25% wbl limit)...

    Level 6: The playtest version. You guys let him get away with partially charged wands? :-/

    In fact... it looks like hes still using partial costs for everything. I thought we had come to the agreement that you can't do that.
    No, we certainly have not come to that agreement.

    The DMG is quite clear about it. Believing that partial wands cannot be part of a character's equipment and bought means:
    1) you think that players creating characters above level 1 (which was actually the case for the playtest) should do things diffently than those playing levels 1-20. This would be ridiculous imo.
    2) you think that players can sell but never buy partial wands. This, too, would be ridiculous imo.

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    I am absolutely convinced. The SRD says you can grapple to your hearts content -- its 100% true. You can use the Grapple Special attack in a flurry to your hearts content. Need me to link you to what that is?
    So -what is is it now? You can flurry grapple or not? If you believe the monk can, then we have no more argument here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    So... I win?
    So far it looks like an impasse.

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    No, we certainly have not come to that agreement.

    The DMG is quite clear about it. Believing that partial wands cannot be part of a character's equipment and bought means:
    1) you think that players creating characters above level 1 (which was actually the case for the playtest) should do things diffently than those playing levels 1-20. This would be ridiculous imo.
    2) you think that players can sell but never buy partial wands. This, too, would be ridiculous imo.

    - Giacomo
    1) Those characters were assumed to have aquired those wands at full charges, and have subsequently used them.
    2) Oh, ou can buy them, but not reliably. Theres always someone to buy, however.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    I love to play monks. I am taken aback by someone who thinks that a Grapple+UMD build is revolutionary, and that only monks can accomplish this. The truth is, Grappling is a weak choice overall (in my opinion) and many other classes can UMD to better effect.
    Ah, then I do not give up hope on you altogether.

    You see, you apparently have not yet come to see the power of UMD, divine power, and flurry (plus grapple).

    Let me explain it again.
    Divine power gives you full BAB. This is a good thing for grappling.
    Divine power gives you +6 STR enhancement. This is also a good thing for grappling (plus, you do not need the belt spot of your monk's belt for a belt of giant strength).

    And yes, many classes can use UMD better- but not to better grappling effect.

    Will go to bed now.

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Collin152 View Post
    1) Those characters were assumed to have aquired those wands at full charges, and have subsequently used them.
    care to quote the relevant passage? And how can the system assume that you always acquire the wands at full charges when normally you find them as treasure, quite likely to be run lower in charges (as per DMG)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Collin152 View Post
    2) Oh, ou can buy them, but not reliably. Theres always someone to buy, however.
    what makes you assume that? You have a car and there is always someone who'll buy it right away? Whereas you can never buy a car when you want it?

    Sounds strange to me.

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    So -what is is it now? You can flurry grapple or not?
    Yes, you can flurry to initiate a grapple.

    If you believe the monk can, then we have no more argument here.
    We do, because you continue to think that you can use flurry to your benefit once you're already grappled.

  22. - Top - End - #892
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    You see, you apparently have not yet come to see the power of UMD, divine power, and flurry (plus grapple).
    Oh, I know it can be done. I've played it. I did worse in combat than the Fighter, and worse out of combat than the Rogue.

    Let me explain it again.
    Divine power gives you full BAB. This is a good thing for grappling.
    Divine power gives you +6 STR enhancement. This is also a good thing for grappling (plus, you do not need the belt spot of your monk's belt for a belt of giant strength).
    Your point? You're arguing the usefulness of UMD here, not grappling. And since thats the thing I think is a sub-par choice, thats what you should concentrate on.

    And yes, many classes can use UMD better- but not to better grappling effect.
    There are people who can spit toothpicks with great accuracy. But I can shoot someone before those toothpicks will do anything worthwile to the same target.

    There are people who can grapple really well. But there are many many many many many more effective ways of disabling a target than grappling.

  23. - Top - End - #893
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    care to quote the relevant passage? And how can the system assume that you always acquire the wands at full charges when normally you find them as treasure, quite likely to be run lower in charges (as per DMG)?


    what makes you assume that? You have a car and there is always someone who'll buy it right away? Whereas you can never buy a car when you want it?

    Sounds strange to me.

    - Giacomo
    Books not on me.
    Because you buy them wholsale. It is assumed you hired someone to make this wand for you, and wands are made with full charges.
    Finding them as treasure leaves it up to DM's whim, and is therefore not suitable for debate.

    Right away? Who said right away?
    But, if I have something that somebody somewhere wants and has the money for, it will sell.
    Meanwhile, even if I had all the money in the world, there simply aren't any authentic witch corpses for me to buy. Not the best example, but a true story.

    Strange to you, is it? Not surprised, else this point would have been settled ages ago.

  24. - Top - End - #894
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    care to quote the relevant passage? And how can the system assume that you always acquire the wands at full charges when normally you find them as treasure, quite likely to be run lower in charges (as per DMG)?
    Where are you getting that you normally find wands in treasure? D&D is based on the fact that you can buy magic items. Giamonk is basically forced to buy wands to get the spells he needs.

    what makes you assume that? You have a car and there is always someone who'll buy it right away? Whereas you can never buy a car when you want it?
    I can rarely buy the exact car I want. Perfect example -- I am motorcycle shopping, and I want a 00-02 Kawasaki Ninja 636 or a 05-08 Kawasaki ZZR600. In the 6 months I've been looking, I've found 2 bikes that match that -- both out of my price range at the time.

    I am wand shopping and I want a Wand of Enlarge with 5 charges left. I've found some with 6+ charges (which I can't afford) and some with 1-4 charges (which isn't what I'm looking for, and could result in me paying more than a 5 charge wand) but the only time I found a 5 charge wand, I was out of gold.

    Sounds strange to me.
    You don't shop much for hard to find stuff, do you?

  25. - Top - End - #895
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Can you point to the passage that says you can buy used wands?

    Under the Wands section of the SRD

    A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower. Each wand has 50 charges when created, and each charge expended allows the user to use the wand’s spell one time. A wand that runs out of charges is just a stick.
    That's it. The only number there is 50. There is no price for a used wand, only for fully charged ones.

    Wealth by level isnt "items you are picking up while you adventure"... its you shopping for exactly what you want because you're making a character above 1st level. It REPRESENTS the items you pick up, but you don't actually get to pick and choose. If that were the case, you GM would just assign the equipment to you.... since the stuff you wanted wasnt loot for the past 19 levels.
    Last edited by SamTheCleric; 2008-05-30 at 06:34 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #896

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Show me the optimised rogue/fighter/wizard/cleric party of, say, levels 1,5 and 10 that is able to "regularly" fight above their CR encounters and survive?
    Rogue-Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, Acid Flasks, Ring of Blinking, Hulking Hurler, Perfect Two Weapon Fighting without any pre-reqs at level 10. Core works fine, but you can also make a non-core one with a Wand Bracer filled with Sniper's Shot, and Golem/Grave/Plant Strike.

    Cleric-Either Caster type, using SRD only, Cloistered Cleric, spontaneous domains, using buffs and debuffs. Or go DMM Persist with nightsticks and become nearly immortal.

    Wizard-Overland Flight at all times, save-or-X, and just plain X spells. Or go non core and get even better spells and permanent invulnerability.

    Fighter-Core Archer Fighter is best, or SRD only Stand Still Spiked Chain Fighter. Or go non-core, make an Uber-charger, Or a much better Lockdown type. Or better yet, replace him with a Cleric/Druid/Rogue/Wizard. I'm partial to Druid.

  27. - Top - End - #897

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Spoiler
    Show

    Monk: I animal shape!
    Yep, hours before the fight.
    DM: Fail.
    Nope, success!
    Druid: I cast shapeshift, turning into a gargantuan Roc.
    Oopsey, not possible. A druid cannot turn into a gargantuan creature with wildshape.
    DM: ok.
    DM (thinks, oh my, this druid player does not even know his class abilities)
    Monk: I animal shape!
    No need, it's already up. The correct tactics: Charge x100feet and grapple! Tumble past the animal companion.
    DM: Ok, you get it this time.
    Monk: thanks, but I don't need to! (rolls to pin druid)
    Druid: I cast hide from animals, sharing with my animal companion, then move.
    DM: er...who do you hide from now? From your own animal companion? Well, you can no longer handle it, since it ignores you. Great. Monk does a grapple flurry against you, doing XX damage. You die.
    Monk: I attack!
    No more need, but it sounds cool! Ah, the monk could attack the confused animal companion at leisure- since the druid died, it no longer has the benefits of anything. Likely it will run simply away.
    DM: you can't locate him.
    No...er, actually, the druid even in case he knew what he was doing beforehand would not likely have been able to notice, much less locate the stealthy monk hiding within partial range before.
    Monk: What!?
    Yes, incredible how easy it was to overcome that druid.
    DM: you're an animal right now, by hide from animals you can't use any sense to locate him.
    Nope, I do not change type with a morph-like spell.
    Monk: I run to wait out his buff!
    Good idea, except it's no use. The druid is dead and his animal companion ran away, free at last.
    1) Yes, the Monk uses the scroll hours beforehand, spending how much money every single day? So 2,275 gp per day, so that's going to be 31,850gp per level on just that one spell alone.

    2) No, Wildshape does not allow Rocs. Please actually read what he said, where Shapechange, which does allow the Druid to become a Roc is used.

    3) Great now you get to fail your grapple check against the Druid that is really big, really far away, and really high up in the air, if you can even reach it.

  28. - Top - End - #898
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Apparently Summon Credit Card is a class ability for Monks.
    ... ... ... YOU SHALL NOT PASS!

  29. - Top - End - #899
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    SamTheCleric's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Freelance_Henchman View Post
    Apparently Summon Credit Card is a class ability for Monks.
    Low Interest Bank Loan (Ex): Buy what you want without consequence. Later in life you will get a sending from an individual either in the middle of dinner or while you are sleeping telling you that this person has recently bought out your loan as it was in default. You now owe them the money in 3 payments or they send out the Paladins of St. Cuthbert.

  30. - Top - End - #900
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Round one. Rogue throws a dagger with sneak attack; fighter charges; wizard casts greater invis on the rogue; cleric casts prayer; gonk uses a wand of heroism on himself.

    No, at level 10 you''ll probably have realised that the joker monk will use the eversmoking bottle, if the situation looks ugly. Hmmm...OK, maybe the ugly green things look surmountable.
    Then he'll use enlarge with an 80% chance (90% in case he had cast extended heroism before).
    If you use the eversmoking bottle, all your allies will have to make saves every round to avoid being taken out of the fight. If the wizard fails it, congrats, you've beaten Batman. But Batman was on your own team. GO MONK!

    Could you link your UMD mod for level 10 before any short term buffs?

    [b]Round two[/b]. Rogue wades into melee, invisible, and starts stabbing; fighter full attacks with cleave; wizard casts black tentacles and quickened grease; cleric casts quickened divine favor and attacks; gonk uses a wand of eagle's splendour, but fails his check.

    Nope, the joker monk grapples the worst opponent, opening up plenty of sneak attacks for the rogue without the need to have cast an improved invisiblity on the rogue first. So, the wizard in my joker monk scenario would have been able to cast black tentacles already in the first round (or get himself to safety/get a wall up/concealment up/whatever.
    The ugly green things are probably all mooks (which is why the fighter gets cleave off). And the rogue would only be able to unleash sneak attacks on one target, not on everything he fights. Wizard spending 1 round giving the rogue sneak attack dice on all his attacks > Monk using up his turns to give the rogue sneak attack dice on his attacks vs 1 enemy.

    If it's a solo enemy, then the monk probably cannot grapple.

    Round three. Rogue, fighter, and cleric keep mashing the UGTs; wizard casts haste. Gonk uses the wand of eagle's splendour again, succeeding this time. Now the gonk can use wands with a 100% success rate for the next five minutes, or until hit by a dispel magic, whichever comes first.

    In round 3, the joker monk has either pinned an opponent already. Or, if the opponent is "many huge green things" (sounds like above CR to me, but anyhow), then he'll have used the bottle, effectively blinding the opponent, giving his comrades opportunity to move out of the smoke area before (waiting to snipe of the confused green monsters staggering out).
    And before you maintain the anyone could use the bottle: yes, but the joker monk has the best synergies with it with blind-fight and his high move (plus, he does not need sneak in this concealment situation).
    It's more like: The monk has used his bottle, causing everyone to scream hoarsely "YOU IDIOT!". Someone has probably rolled a failed save on his fortitude save (maybe the rogue or the wizard), and spends the turn coughing and getting pummeled by green things. The rest of the party runs out of the smoke, confused and shocked by the stupidity of the monk, and then 'snipes'? What, throw shruiken? Melee fighter takes out his longbow and shoots for crap damage? While rogue throws daggers WITH NO SNEAK ATTACK DAMAGE DUE TO CONCEALMENT. Best of all, wizard uses his reserve feat/plinks with a crossbow. The cleric will probably try to dispel the damn bottle or follow the wizard in crossbow practice.

    The monk has best synergies? He just screwed his whole party.

    Round four. More melee, supported by wizard artillery. Gonk takes out a wand of enlarge, another of those nifty one-encounter buff spells.

    Why now, and not at the beginning? Even if the joker monk does not have enough UMD to activate safely, why should it take him four rounds to get the enlarge effect up? Please explain.
    Maybe you'd take 2 rounds instead, but that was 2 rounds wasted, compared to the rogue/fighter who fought for more rounds than you.

    Round five. Gonk finishes his buff sequence by casting Blink on himself, just as the fighter finishes his battle sequence by slicing the last UGT in half. Ah, another encounter well-fought, with shining examples of teamwork, and the gonk never failed a single grapple check. Gonk fires a few shots of his CLW wand so that the cleric doesn't have to waste his spell slots. And the party travels on

    Complete nonsense.
    - the monk would never use a blink charge at the moment where the combat is already almost decided. Not even a caster regaining it overnight would do that.
    - in case the UGT is huge (the only size negating likely the monk's grapple), I have somehow a doubt that the fighter will have sliced through all of them in 5 rounds
    - CLW at those levels will be used in combat to stabilise fallen comrades with higher move and tumble in case the cleric cannot get there.
    But if the combat was already decided, then your monk would've done nothing for 4 rounds. The fighter can slice through lots of things in 5 rounds at level 10. And healing is best done through CLW wands at early-mid levels. They're cheapest and best.
    RAR!

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