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  1. - Top - End - #931
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Signmakerens View Post
    2000 gp, at level 6, with 13000 gp starting gold. Again, low estimate, but 15.4% of total wealth going to only one KIND of one-shot (potions and scrolls not included in calculations) is quite a bit, eh?
    I just wanted to add, between failures to activate and other things, its probably closer to 1.5-2. So, somewhere between 22.5%-30% of total wealth is one type of one shot item.

    Thats spending your money wisely /nod.

  2. - Top - End - #932
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    I just wanted to add, between failures to activate and other things, its probably closer to 1.5-2. So, somewhere between 22.5%-30% of total wealth is one type of one shot item.

    Thats spending your money wisely /nod.
    Activation failure is only a monetary issue with scrolls. Wands don't lose charges from failures.
    "So Marbles, why do they call you Marbles?"

  3. - Top - End - #933
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    You mean the party wizard's dad sold a wand 12 years ago and now you expect the monk to buy it back? What strange logic is that? In case that car...er wand was unused/undepreciated in the meantime, then it's of course even possible.
    The point is, a merchant will often BUY said wand, on the grounds he can find a purchaser. However, it is difficult to find such a wand on demand, as it requires certain conditions be met. Certain rare conditions. The party which bought it must either not want it, or be in desperate need for money, after using the wand to get to exactly the amount of charges you want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    READ THE JOKER MONK BUILD. PLEASE.
    Done. Will get to this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    - partial wands are available. Get over it. The ONLY thing that the rules have to say about availability is the PRICE. Because that is what determines which size of city can offer this kind of item. Check out DMG p.199 and the magic item introduction rules.
    Opinion not based in supported fact. The point is, wands must be created at full price. For you to find a partial wand, the person using it must have not found it useful enough to warrant keeping, even though you find it useful enough to warrant buying. The only place that partial charge wands are explicitly allowed is in character creation. The fact that it's there is actually an implication that they are not allowed elsewhere. Also, I've seen no sourcebook that lists a wand with less than 50 charges. That makes a wand with less than 50 charges technically a custom item, which the DMG allows at character creation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    - yep, I misread Talic's part about the druid casting shapechange (Talic wrote "shapeshift", so we both erred here), not wildshape. Still, that assumes the druid is level 17& up. For those rare encounters where the monnk needs to share in the morphing cheese suggested by Talic, he can easily afford it. Plus, a much cheaper AMF will bring down that druid's glory quite fast. Or even a silence in case the druid loses initiative.
    Reading Joker Monk, at the height of the build, it features a +19 UMD. Great for auto-success on wands.

    Scrolls are another matter.
    AMF is a DC 31 activation. That makes it a less than 50% chance. (45%, to be accurate. Hardly the silver bullet you need, as if you do not successfully get it, the monk will be hard pressed to activate that scroll while being eaten in a grapple.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    You have played a monk with diviner power up and still you found that you did worse than fighter and rogue in combat?
    Again: with divine power, your BAB equals that of the fighter, you get more attacks than the fighter. This should roughly even out the feat advantages the fighter has in mere melee damage output (though not the tactical versatility of the fighter in melee combat).
    But not the weapon enhancements, the higher average base strength, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    The rogue needs sneak opportunities to even compete here.
    WITHOUT divine power, it is an entirely different matter, true. Which I would call balanced, or the monk would be too strong.
    Ok, you have Divine power, nice level 4 spell, and you need a scroll to activate. DC 27 to activate, putting your level 20 monk at a 65% success rate for Divine Power at level 20. The rogue with a 10 charisma and max UMD ranks (and let's say, skill focus in UMD, magical aptitude, and a MW tool). At level 16, with no other spells, buffs, or focuses, that rogue is swinging a +26 UMD at level 16. With a +6 cloak? level 13. With a +4 cloak, a 14 Cha, and 2 level boosts in Cha? Level 11. He'd be swinging a +19 at level 9, with a 10 cha, and no boosts. With a 13 base cha and 1 stat boosts into cha? Level 7.

    What would he be using? Greater Invisibility. Now, he can sneak attack as often as he wants, with the same duration as Divine Power. I hope this is a demonstration of how well UMD benefits the rogue, directly synergizing with the rogue's high skill points, UMD as a class skill, and complimentary use with the rogue's primary combat feature, sneak attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Nope. A rogue UMDing divine power to better grapple would not get such a return out of his investment, simply because his class abilities (sneak anyone?) do not synergise well with grappling boosts.
    See above. The rogue wouldn't try to be a monk. He has class features that synergize with other spells far better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    - tripping build? Tumble helps escape it.
    Not accurate. Tumble can avoid the AoO's. Not the Trip/Followup attack that the fighter gets every round, and twice at level 6-8. The trip build can reliably hold off 3-4 enemies a round at levels 1-8. The grapple build can reliably hold off... 1 per round.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Acid flasks?* Yes, that’s a great idea- 3 ranged touch attacks for 6d6 damage each (it’s non-magical, though, so watch out the creatures with damage red/magic).
    Acid is energy damage, and would not be protected against by DR. Assuming level 9 rogue, using his wand of greater invis (which is every bit as viable as Jokermonk's wand of Divine Power), he rogue will get a +6 bab, +2 invis bonus, +3 dex(conservatively). With a +11 to hit a flat footed touch AC, and far shot, the rogue will land 95% of his hits within 30 feet. Average damage? 12d6/round, acid. Beware energy resistance (acid), though, in fairness, if a critter has it, you can switch to alchemist's fire. If a critter has both, you can go with a light crossbow for the same (rapid reload is needed instead of far shot, here, and this attack method is resisted by DR).
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Anyhow, the rogue MAY create with UMD wands often enough blink effects to get in his 6d6 damage (=21 average). 20% of his attacks do not hit (=17 avg damage), so the damage output vs the flurrying monk (3d8+4=17) could be roughly the same (for the duration of the blink, which lasts less than the enlarge; although this is in turn equated by the rogue’s better to hit).
    Unless you choose a spell which synergizes better with rogue abilities, rather than cutting and pasting your monk thoughts over to rogue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Meanwhile, the monk may have slightly better AC, slightly better hp and more tactical feats and his grappling option that the rogue does not have.
    Above level 9, grappling begins to lose its viability. The monk MAY have better AC, though with a chain shirt, and invisibility, I doubt it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    The fighter core archer is good (I should know ). But he'll be glad about an occasional meleeing monk, I dare say! (including one that warns him with his higher spot and listen of distant enemies).
    He'd probably be more glad with a rogue that is practically unmatched in stealth, quite good at spotting things, and able to sow confusion in the ranks of enemies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Anyhow, I think the 4 arrows/round fighter archer of 10th level (boots of haste, rapid shot) will not be able to win consistently vs CR 11 creatures or more. But perhaps you have a good example of this? Which would really interest me.
    Fighter archery is a sub-par attack form due to this. As is grappling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    *EDITED - overlooked all aspects of the good idea for a rogue to use acid flasks.
    Even after edit, you overlooked a few.

  4. - Top - End - #934
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Hi again,

    well…I’ll try once again a different approach.
    It’s no use now to try again and again to respond to preset opinions of the same people who. Like for instance Nebo, will limit their contribution in this thread to saying “this thread is useless, better play a swordsage.”
    Or the usual “grappling sucks as a strategy” or whatever, that is just tossed around without any proof or even attempt at proof.
    The best part about it that I get accused of trolling, after posting a huge guide full of ideas to discuss.

    Anyhow, before answering to two honest-sounding questions of (in my memory) first posters in this thread, Behold the Void and Signmakerens, let me clarify only that stuff which imo is outside any opinion, since it is covered by the rules.

    1. Partially charged wands are possible. Get over it. It’s on p.199 for creating characters above 1st level. If they introduce this principle there, why not apply it for the usual adventuring career as well? Or rather, where is it excluded for the usual adventuring career? Would make no sense. In fact, it even gets explicitly mentioned again for normal 1-20 level play when talking about finding and selling treasure on DMG p. 214-215. If you can sell, there must be a buyer. It would make no sense at all if only npcs could buy partially charged wands. To all of you with the (unique even!) used car analogies: Which type of treasure will be more common? Brand new 50 charge wands? Or the used kind?
    Assume for a while that x new wands of enlarge get produced every year in the campaign. Year 1: X wands of 50 charges enter the market. Next year: another X wands of 50 charges enter the market. However, now the market is already full of X wands of the previous year THAT ALREADY WERE USED IN PART. It is highly likely that some of those will get exchanged already in a secondary market. Year 3: another X wands of 50 charges hit the market. And so on. And so on. Now, guess – are there more used wands or more new wands in the market?
    Back to the used car analogy: are there more used cars on the market or new ones?
    Conclusion: it would be an incredibly far-fetched, without any explicit rules description- based notion to think about pcs ONLY able to buy fully charged wands.

    2. Having said that, UMD and partially charged wands give the joker monk maximum flexibility, but it is of course also possible to a) get along with only fully charged wands purchase (wand of enlarge available level 4, wand of silence available level 7 with 25% wbl for single item, etc.). And, you can even get good joker monk tactcis with only permanent items (divine power can be obtained from level 15 with a ring of spell storing, according to the 25% maximum per item rule of wbl).
    And to answer Talic's most recent post: yes, UMD also synergises greatly with other classes and their abilites. Nowhere do I argue otherwise. Only that SOME spells are best for the monk, OTHERS are best for other classes.
    And UMD +19 autoactivates a divine power - it does not need to be taken as a scroll, which is the kicker about it
    Ignoring the 25% to single item rule, the monk can auto-activate wands even at 9th level with a heroism active (way before combat) and a cloak of CHR +2. I will also edit the level 15-20 joker monk UMD to put at ease all the concerns that the monk cannot auto-activate a scroll of AMF. He can, easily (and I showed that already two pages ago).

    3. I never said that with a spiked chain the joker monk (or any monk) can flurry. This is wishful thinking of Griffin131 trying again strawman techniques because he runs out of arguments. I was arguing from the side of the combat reflexes feat, which Griffin131 maintaining he read my guide completely, apparently has overlooked. The spiked chain likewise is not a weapon proficiency for the joker monk, he has it simply to disarm foes from 20ft afar (with quite sufficiently high modifier even with the -4 for non-proficiency, in particular vs small-weapon-carrying-enemy-sneak attacks; working even when flat-footed). Of course, with 10ft reach vs ugrly green thing mooks, he can easily also get his high unarmed damage as AoO. It's a monk, guys, so he can have his hands full with wands or a spiked chain and still kick around like hell (or use head butts, whatever).

    4. In a way I find it amusing (though reminicent of the double standards prevalent by many posters around here) that the joker monk receives the full power of criticism for using consumable items (“how can you afford that”), while no-one sees it adequate to point out to Chosen_of_Vecna that a full round (ONE ROUND!) of attack of his acid flasks mean 50 gp spent per round of combat. Well...the enlarge spell from a wand lasting 10 (TEN!) rounds costs the joker monk only 15 gp. Assuming that the average combat lasts 5 rounds, the AcidRogue burns about 1,000 gp per day. Do not get me wrong- I think the acid flask sneak attack idea is great, but I would expect my joker monk build treated with similar fairness.
    Ah, and one acid flask weighs 1 pound. So for five rounds of 5 attacks each, that's already 25 pounds weighing down the rogue. Four of such encounters? 100 pounds. Better get a bag of holding...

    5. On that great core-without-monk-party taking on consistently CR 11 creatures, I kindly ask you all to have a look at the kind of CR 11 challenges for a party. Of the 24 core CR 11 monsters I found, almost all have a way to attack a lame 40ft overland-flying wizard. The rogue trying to throw an acid flask within 30ft for sneak would be faced often with superior ranged attacks from most monsters or immunity to sneak attack (not to mention the skyrocketing costs or hazards of carrying around xd6 acid damage possbily affecting HIM). The fighter’s will save would be targeted quite often (and most monsters would be quite formidable to oppose any trip attacks-I KNOW, Talic, that tumble does not prevent trip, thanks for making that up; although archery would carry some chances). And Griffin131's cleric with the following spells...
    Spoiler
    Show

    Magic+Travel
    5+1
    Entropic Shield
    Magic Weapon
    Bless x3
    Longstrider
    5+1
    Hold Person x5
    Identify
    4+1
    Bestow Curse x2
    Searing Light
    Fly
    4+1
    Divine Power x4
    Dimension Door
    2+1
    Righteous Might x2
    Spell Resistance

    ...is good – but I fail to see how he can decisively contribute to beating an (picking random CR 11 opponents) elder air elemental, an archer harpy, a stone golem and an adult black dragon all on the same day. Going melee appears to be this cleric's main strategy. Now that is not such a good idea imo vs the CR 11 monsters I saw.
    His dimension door spell is good...and likely always is considered a “tactical retreat to rain death from somewhere” (whereas the monk retreating would be considered “leaving to death the rest of his group; or more simply “fleeing”).
    And don’t you dare buff for three rounds in a row with bless, divine power and rightuous might...the joker monk was seriously criticised for that (and HE had the stealth skills and initiative mod to allow him to do at least 1-2 buffs btw....)

    6. Speaking about that attack: yep, the acid is not affected by damage reduction (no elemental attack is). My bad. However, the blink always means 20% of it is useless attack. The reason: yes, the moment the acid leaves the end on the etheral plane, it becomes material again AND DROPS TO THE GROUND. Because it lacks the etheral plane propulsion when it re-enters the material plane. This is just the logic explanation. The RAW explanation is found in the blink spell description. 20% to ATTACKS, not just melee attacks (it also applies to spells btw). And the acid flask has no secondary damage of any kind (neither the PHB nor the DMG p. 302 "An attack with acid, such as from a hurled vial or a monster's spittle, counts as round of exposure." descriptions suggest so).

    7. That eversmoking bottle thing is really hard to hit home for some of you. Here are the rules again: a) the bottle provides TOTAL concealment (read the bottle description). This means no sneaks and no targeted spells. Zip. Ray spells are cut by 50% hit chance (in case the arcane caster pinpoints enemies, listen is not a class skill for those excepting bards) b) the smoke prevents spellcasting due to “spend that round choking and coughing”, which in my book prevents spellcasting (read the smoke DMG description, and the verbal component description in the PHB p.174 “you must be able to speak with a strong voice”). c) Bottle tactics basics, again (why do I have to keep repeating it?): the bottle is NOT used when it is disadvantageous for the party. Please stop inventing scenarios of the joker monk using it when the party is in melee combat or such nonsense. Or I will start maintaining that Reel On, Love’s druid ONLY casts entangle with the party in the middle of it, meaning proof that the druid class is useless. d) the smoke from the bottle clears for 1 round from the use of a gust of wind spell and resumes afterwards. (EVERsmoking bottle, guys!).

    8. It is not rare that the group has the surprise on its side (whole character classes like rogue, ranger, monk are built around that concept, and the invisibiltiy spell alone can provide the occasional surprise...). Read the move silently, hide, listen and spot descriptions in the PHB again, pls.

    9. A ring of blinking for a level 10 character means you spend more than 50% of your wbl on one item, which is not advised by the DMG (p.199 again). If you allow it, though, you can imagine that a different joker monk already has the monk’s belt at that level and more charges in a wand of divine power, with a cloak of CHR +4 and a wand of heroism (meaning UMD +19 check). Tadaaa...monk has an attack bonus of +18/+18/+13 with 4d8+7 damage each on a hit (in level 11, the no. of attacks this way rise to 5 btw!). Something tells me that this equates the acidflasking 6d6 per (80% chance) hits of the rogue quite often. The monk will not have to spend that much more to get divine power or acid all the time, in case you wonder (420 gp+90+15 per 7 round encounter for the monk, 350gp for the rogue).

    10. This thread largely discusses a CORE monk build. So it makes no sense to say that xy class from z companion is so much more uber with the dragon issue #2451 feat and special definitely better at grappling. The reason for keeping to core rules is the greater ease to discuss what is possible within the rules and not. I never ever maintained that beyond core, there is any semblance of balance left. An easy example is that there is no special 3.5 monk companion by WoTC, which already speaks volumes in my eyes about what class will likely get behind outside core.
    And, of course, many people play core only. There is even a whole core coliseum duel thread put up, which is highly popular.

    11. You can flurry a grapple. The flurry of blows explicitly refers to modified BASE attack bonus and the FAQ covers all remaining doubts there are. You can flurry both the initiate grapple, and the no. of grapple checks in a grapple.

    Now, after these 11 rules reminders, on to the posts by Behold the Void and Signmakerens.

    @Behold the Void
    Your comparison of a fighter vs the joker monk grappling: yes, a fighter devoted to grappling likely will have a higher grapple check than the joker monk. Your fighter will actually NOT have a higher grapple check than the joker monk. A specialised grapple monk will likely have a higher grapple check than a specialised fighter.

    Let me explain.
    Your fighter has a DEX of 12. This means that the moment he uses the key grapple buff, enlarge, he’ll drop to a DEX of 10 and no longer have the improved grapple feat. So the joker monk will outgrapple him in the levels 1-8 easily that I portrayed best grapple levels for the joker monk . The monk class can get improved grapple as a bonus feat, so he does not need to have a high DEX.
    Now, a fighter with DEX 15 will then be able to outgrapple the joker monk. But is this a worthwhile approach for a 28pt-buy fighter?
    Assuming your above set of stats, the fighter would have STR 16, DEX 15 and would need to lower his CON or whatever other value by 4 points. A fighter already has some glaring weaknesses (lack of skill points and low will save), so specialising in grappling is quite tough for him.
    Then, suppose the monk is focused completely on grappling (aka the lord_khaine school). This can still have joker monk elements (using spell buffs from various sources), but likely will be less stealthy and resistant to magic.
    Say, a half-orc with STR 18 (+2 racial, so 20 overall). The fighter taking this route will need to spend 16 pts on STR and 8 points on DEX to even compete with the monk in grappling, meaning he is really MAD...he has only 4 points left – and with CON 12 would become a complete idiot of INT 6, WIS 8 and CHR 6. The monk player, meanwhile, could spend 12 points on whatever he likes.
    Finally, there is that thing for monks of higher unarmed damage output. The fighter, even enlarged with unarmed strike, has 1d4 (!!!!!). What kind of fighter player would go for such a damage output, when power attack, spiked chain proficiency and combat control is easily obtainable with his number of feats?
    The same holds true for a barbarian: yes, the can make good grapplers. But they make much, much better power attacks with TH-weapons, in particular at low levels. And a half-orc barbarian cannot even take improved grapple at 1st level, for lack of feats.
    Finally, there is the flurry of blows ability. A higher number of grapple attempts can make up for around 2-3 lower grapple check – which has been shown quite consistently from both sides of the argument in the thread above so far.

    I hope this answers your questions of why I consider a monk in general in core as the best grappler, and why the joker monk is also quite good at it. Sufficient, at least, to be able to neuter the large majority of CR 1-8 monsters AND npcs with his grappling (and opening them up this way for his rogue buddy’s sneak attacks).


    @Signmakerens

    Actually, your post I hardly understand. You roughly are in line or with or even below the wealth spent by the joker monk on his wand budget all the time (the reason for UMD and wands are EXACTLY because potions are way more expensive btw, so he hardly ever uses any potions).
    Your point being?
    You even showed that with 120gp in expendable items used per encounter (note that the key enlarge buff only costs 15gp per use) means that the joker monk can get by with a fraction of what I budgeted for him as costs for his wands.
    The 6th level you pointed out is currently being playtested (link is here and here as well for the statistics and rules discussion

    So, in a nutshell, yes: the joker monk has enough to spend for his wand and scroll tricks.

    Maybe it’s best for all to see how the playtest develops.

    - Giacomo

    EDIT: @Talic: yes, around 9th level the grappling tactics for the joker monk loses its attractiveness. Thanks for repeating that observation already made in the guide.
    I acknowledge that you had nothing to say about that preceding post of yours full of fallacies and errors. Why is it so difficult to admit that you have been wrong?
    Last edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-06-01 at 10:54 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #935
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Giacomo, partially charged wands do not work that way. You are the only one who interprets DnD in that fashion. Get over it.

    You get to choose it as part of your starting gear. However, once you start leveling, you can't buy them anymore, as things you buy after cease to be your starting gear.
    Last edited by Solo; 2008-06-01 at 06:17 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #936
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    1. Partially charged wands are possible. Get over it. It’s on p.199 for creating characters above 1st level. If they introduce this principle there, why not apply it for the usual adventuring career as well? Or rather, where is it excluded for the usual adventuring career? Would make no sense. In fact, it even gets explicitly mentioned again for normal 1-20 level play when talking about finding and selling treasure on DMG p. 214-215. If you can sell, there must be a buyer. It would make no sense at all if only npcs could buy partially charged wands. To all of you with the (unique even!) used car analogies: Which type of treasure will be more common? Brand new 50 charge wands? Or the used kind?
    Assume for a while that x new wands of enlarge get produced every year in the campaign. Year 1: X wands of 50 charges enter the market. Next year: another X wands of 50 charges enter the market. However, now the market is already full of X wands of the previous year THAT ALREADY WERE USED IN PART. It is highly likely that some of those will get exchanged already in a secondary market. Year 3: another X wands of 50 charges hit the market. And so on. And so on. Now, guess – are there more used wands or more new wands in the market?
    Back to the used car analogy: are there more used cars on the market or new ones?
    Conclusion: it would be an incredibly far-fetched, without any explicit rules description- based notion to think about pcs ONLY able to buy fully charged wands.
    First off, wands do run out of charges, so it is impossible to say how many wands are still "on the market" after year one. Second even if there are wands around, you'll still have to find someone who doesn't want to use it any more even after using up 75%(random number) of the wands charges.
    Third, to further the car analogy, you don't want a random used car, you want one that's exactly 3.7 years old so it fits into your budget and you want a specific model too!
    Conclusion: you might be able to find some partially charged wands, especially with the gather information skill, but expecting to buy exactly what you want is an incredibly far-fetched, without any explicit rules description- based, notion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    7. That eversmoking bottle thing is really hard to hit home for some of you. Here are the rules again: a) the bottle provides TOTAL concealment (read the bottle description). This means no sneaks and no targeted spells. Zip. Ray spells are cut by 50% hit chance (in case the arcane caster pinpoints enemies, listen is not a class skill for those excepting bards) b) the smoke prevents spellcasting due to “spend that round choking and coughing”, which in my book prevents spellcasting (read the smoke DMG description, and the verbal component description in the PHB p.174 “you must be able to speak with a strong voice”). c) Bottle tactics basics, again (why do I have to keep repeating it?): the bottle is NOT used when it is disadvantageous for the party. Please stop inventing scenarios of the joker monk using it when the party is in melee combat or such nonsense. Or I will start maintaining that Reel On, Love’s druid ONLY casts entangle with the party in the middle of it, meaning proof that the druid class is useless. d) the smoke from the bottle clears for 1 round from the use of a gust of wind spell and resumes afterwards. (EVERsmoking bottle, guys!).
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Eversmoking Bottle

    This metal urn is identical in appearance to an efreeti bottle, except that it does nothing but smoke. The amount of smoke is great if the stopper is pulled out, pouring from the bottle and totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread in 1 round. If the bottle is left unstoppered, the smoke billows out another 10 feet per round until it has covered a 100-foot radius. This area remains smoke-filled until the eversmoking bottle is stoppered.

    The bottle must be resealed by a command word, after which the smoke dissipates normally. A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the smoke in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the smoke in 1 round.
    I agree with most of your rulings on the eversmoking bottle, but where does is say it causes characters inside the smoke to "spend that round choking and coughing" I can't find it in the bottles description.
    Last edited by Fenix_of_Doom; 2008-06-01 at 06:51 AM.
    Schrödinger cat? Schrödinger wizard? Schrödinger monk?
    What's next? Schrödinger equation? HΨ=EΨ? Seriously WTF?


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  7. - Top - End - #937
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Hi again,
    1. Partially charged wands are possible. Get over it. It’s on p.199 for creating characters above 1st level. If they introduce this principle there, why not apply it for the usual adventuring career as well? Or rather, where is it excluded for the usual adventuring career? Would make no sense. In fact, it even gets explicitly mentioned again for normal 1-20 level play when talking about finding and selling treasure on DMG p. 214-215. If you can sell, there must be a buyer. It would make no sense at all if only npcs could buy partially charged wands. To all of you with the (unique even!) used car analogies: Which type of treasure will be more common? Brand new 50 charge wands? Or the used kind?
    The used kind, of course. Next question. Who places that treasure? Players? Or DMs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Assume for a while that x new wands of enlarge get produced every year in the campaign. Year 1: X wands of 50 charges enter the market. Next year: another X wands of 50 charges enter the market. However, now the market is already full of X wands of the previous year THAT ALREADY WERE USED IN PART. It is highly likely that some of those will get exchanged already in a secondary market. Year 3: another X wands of 50 charges hit the market. And so on. And so on. Now, guess – are there more used wands or more new wands in the market?
    Begin with a couple assumptions:
    1) nobody is going to purchase a Wand of Enlarge Person if they do not intend to use it.
    2) for such an item to be viable to sell, one of 3 conditions must be met:
    a) circumstances must change so that the item isn't useful (not likely)
    b) an overwhelming need to get money that surpasses the usefulness of the item must be created.
    c) the wielder of the wand must die, and the subsequent owner must have circumstances where the wand is not useful.

    Of these (c) is most likely, and is still a rare occurance. You are asking to buy an item that cannot be created. It is a byproduct of in-game action. It is allowed in character creation to reflect that yes, you DID buy a wand with 50 charges. You then used some of them.

    Purchases are supply-driven. When you are selling a wand, you are supply. You are driving the sale. When you are buying a wand, the merchant is the supply. If he hasn't received an adventuring group that couldn't find a use for a wand of Enlarge Person with 13 charges left, that it wrested from the kobold sorceror's lair... Well, if he don't got it, you can't buy it.
    And there is nowhere in the game that outlines the purchase cost of a partially-charged wand. In character creation, it outlines the value if you use the specially granted ability to start with them. But in that instance, you are not buying a partially charged wand. You're starting with one. There IS a difference, no matter how hard you wish to pretend otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Back to the used car analogy: are there more used cars on the market or new ones?
    Used. Now, do you think it's easier to find a brand new 2008 Corvette, or a 1969 Chevy Stingray with 153,000 miles on it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Conclusion: it would be an incredibly far-fetched, without any explicit rules description- based notion to think about pcs ONLY able to buy fully charged wands.
    And yet, quite reasonable to assume that the DM determines specifically which ones are available, and how many charges each has, along with how easy it is to find in a city, what skills you must have to locate it, and whether or not the owner will be willing to part with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    And to answer Talic's most recent post: yes, UMD also synergises greatly with other classes and their abilites. Nowhere do I argue otherwise. Only that SOME spells are best for the monk, OTHERS are best for other classes.
    You have said that the reason UMD is viable for monk, even though it is not a class skill, is that the monk gets greater benefit out UMD than other classes can. This is a direct refutation of that. If you like, I can go back and find at least three such posts that you have made, and link them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    And UMD +19 autoactivates a divine power - it does not need to be taken as a scroll, which is the kicker about it
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    Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.
    As divine power has no target or area (being a personal range spell), a wand of such a spell cannot be activated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Ignoring the 25% to single item rule, the monk can auto-activate wands even at 9th level with a heroism active (way before combat) and a cloak of CHR +2. I will also edit the level 15-20 joker monk UMD to put at ease all the concerns that the monk cannot auto-activate a scroll of AMF. He can, easily (and I showed that already two pages ago).
    Yes, by removing other abilities. This is not morph-a-monk. You get a finite list of abilities. And relying on one spell to cast another is like hiring a chauffeur to drive you around. Costs a lot more. The point is, the build you listed in the guide was incapable of doing the things you said it could do. This shows a flawed argument from flawed reasoning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    4. In a way I find it amusing (though reminicent of the double standards prevalent by many posters around here) that the joker monk receives the full power of criticism for using consumable items (“how can you afford that”), while no-one sees it adequate to point out to Chosen_of_Vecna that a full round (ONE ROUND!) of attack of his acid flasks mean 50 gp spent per round of combat. Well...the enlarge spell from a wand lasting 10 (TEN!) rounds costs the joker monk only 15 gp. Assuming that the average combat lasts 5 rounds, the AcidRogue burns about 1,000 gp per day. Do not get me wrong- I think the acid flask sneak attack idea is great, but I would expect my joker monk build treated with similar fairness.
    Points to consider. 1) alchemical skill can reduce the cost of acid flasks to 1/3 listed price. There is no experience cost to create said items.
    2) acid is one option, along with fire, and crossbow, to gain 6d6 damage at level 9. Not all need to be used in 1 fight. If crossbows don't work, move to acid. If acid doesn't work, move to fire.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Ah, and one acid flask weighs 1 pound. So for five rounds of 5 attacks each, that's already 25 pounds weighing down the rogue. Four of such encounters? 100 pounds. Better get a bag of holding...
    Or craft it as you need it. Also, you won't be likely making 5 attacks a round, and if you do, you're doing 30d6 damage a round, or average damage of 105 damage per round. The fight won't last 5 rounds. That level of damage will drop most CR 13 dragons in 2 rounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    The rogue trying to throw an acid flask within 30ft for sneak would be faced often with superior ranged attacks from most monsters or immunity to sneak attack (not to mention the skyrocketing costs or hazards of carrying around xd6 acid damage possbily affecting HIM).
    and it makes sense that the rogue, who has that class feature, has provisions for surviving within 30 feet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    (and most monsters would be quite formidable to oppose any trip attacks-I KNOW, Talic, that tumble does not prevent trip, thanks for making that up; although archery would carry some chances).
    Could you point out where I said that you believed that tumble completely stopped it. I said that what you said wasn't accurate. It didn't tell the full story. I filled that in. But thanks for making up that I'm making things up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    ...is good – but I fail to see how he can decisively contribute to beating an (picking random CR 11 opponents) elder air elemental, an archer harpy, a stone golem and an adult black dragon all on the same day. Going melee appears to be this cleric's main strategy. Now that is not such a good idea imo vs the CR 11 monsters I saw.
    Then you didn't look at them, or your random selection is suspiciously slanted. Methinks that less than 75% of CR 11 monsters fly. Which is what your "cross sampling" has... conveniently when arguing against a melee build.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    His dimension door spell is good...and likely always is considered a “tactical retreat to rain death from somewhere” (whereas the monk retreating would be considered “leaving to death the rest of his group; or more simply “fleeing”).
    If you dim door and stay in the fight, you're not retreating. If you hide, you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    And don’t you dare buff for three rounds in a row with bless, divine power and rightuous might...the joker monk was seriously criticised for that (and HE had the stealth skills and initiative mod to allow him to do at least 1-2 buffs btw....)
    One buff. One. and that buff, at level 9? Heroism, so that he can have that 100% of doing the others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    6. Speaking about that attack: yep, the acid is not affected by damage reduction (no elemental attack is). My bad. However, the blink always means 20% of it is useless attack. The reason: yes, the moment the acid leaves the end on the etheral plane, it becomes material again AND DROPS TO THE GROUND. Because it lacks the etheral plane propulsion when it re-enters the material plane. This is just the logic explanation. The RAW explanation is found in the blink spell description. 20% to ATTACKS, not just melee attacks (it also applies to spells btw). And the acid flask has no secondary damage of any kind (neither the PHB nor the DMG p. 302 "An attack with acid, such as from a hurled vial or a monster's spittle, counts as round of exposure."
    Wrong. the reasoning that it doesn't work for blink is that the blink description states that it doesn't. That's called "RAW". Could you point out where I suggested Blink? I'm pretty sure my suggested spell was the level 4 invisibility spell, which does NOT carry that miss chance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    8. It is not rare that the group has the surprise on its side (whole character classes like rogue, ranger, monk are built around that concept, and the invisibiltiy spell alone can provide the occasional surprise...). Read the move silently, hide, listen and spot descriptions in the PHB again, pls.
    But it is rare that the monk doesn't need to spend that round buffing. It's also rare that the monk will always have surprise, as typically, the monk is intruding on others, not vice versa. This increases the chances of being ambushed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    9. A ring of blinking for a level 10 character means you spend more than 50% of your wbl on one item, which is not advised by the DMG (p.199 again). If you allow it, though, you can imagine that a different joker monk already has the monk’s belt at that level and more charges in a wand of divine power, with a cloak of CHR +4 and a wand of heroism (meaning UMD +19 check). Tadaaa...monk has an attack bonus of +18/+18/+13 with 4d8+7 damage each on a hit (in level 11, the no. of attacks this way rise to 5 btw!). Something tells me that this equates the acidflasking 6d6 per (80% chance) hits of the rogue quite often. The monk will not have to spend that much more to get divine power or acid all the time, in case you wonder (420 gp+90+15 per 7 round encounter for the monk, 350gp for the rogue).
    How are you getting 80% on acid? By my listing, it's 95%... And then only because a 1 always misses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    10. This thread largely discusses a CORE monk build. So it makes no sense to say that xy class from z companion is so much more uber with the dragon issue #2451 feat and special definitely better at grappling. The reason for keeping to core rules is the greater ease to discuss what is possible within the rules and not. I never ever maintained that beyond core, there is any semblance of balance left. An easy example is that there is no special 3.5 monk companion by WoTC, which already speaks volumes in my eyes about what class will likely get behind outside core.
    However, most books include support options and monk PrC's. Show me one book that is a paladin companion, or a ranger companion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    11. You can flurry a grapple. The flurry of blows explicitly refers to modified BASE attack bonus and the FAQ covers all remaining doubts there are. You can flurry both the initiate grapple, and the no. of grapple checks in a grapple.
    Removed entries which are contradicted by primary source. FoB is not Base attack bonus, any more than melee attack bonus is. Both are modified to include something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    EDIT: @Talic: yes, around 9th level the grappling tactics for the joker monk loses its attractiveness. Thanks for repeating that observation already made in the guide.
    Then why did you post a grappling counter to a rogue with +5d6 sneak attack damage, which is attained at level 9? Thanks for showing how you contradict yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    I acknowledge that you had nothing to say about that preceding post of yours full of fallacies and errors. Why is it so difficult to admit that you have been wrong?
    I do not think acknowledge means quite what you think it does. I don't respond to everything because I'm busy. In the past 3 days, I've spent 36 hours moving, and another 16 working, and about 8 sleeping. I do hope you'll forgive me if I prioritize responding to your erroneous views slightly lower than you seem to think they merit.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Hi again,
    1. Partially charged wands are possible. Get over it. It’s on p.199 for creating characters above 1st level. If they introduce this principle there, why not apply it for the usual adventuring career as well? Or rather, where is it excluded for the usual adventuring career? Would make no sense. In fact, it even gets explicitly mentioned again for normal 1-20 level play when talking about finding and selling treasure on DMG p. 214-215. If you can sell, there must be a buyer. It would make no sense at all if only npcs could buy partially charged wands. To all of you with the (unique even!) used car analogies: Which type of treasure will be more common? Brand new 50 charge wands? Or the used kind?
    Conclusion: it would be an incredibly far-fetched, without any explicit rules description- based notion to think about pcs ONLY able to buy fully charged wands.
    Oh my god, how can you still be on this? Look, I'm going to explain this VERY clearly, and if you continue insisting you can get partially charged wands, I'm going to pretty much just give up.

    Characters can be created with partially charged wands. (If you try to get 20 different 1-charged wands, I note, DMs will still slap you.) This represents wands that they bought earlier in their career and used.
    Characters can be CREATED WITH partially charged wands--PCWs from here on. That is all the book says, Giacomo. Your argument for buying PCWs is "it doesn't say I can't". That's not an acceptable argument. It doesn't say humans can't have four arms and two heads, either.
    Partially charged wands are not listed as an item you can buy, therefore you can't buy it. You can create a character with partially charged wands, but existing characters can't buy a wand of X with Y charges, because those are not available by the RAW, *period*. Nothing you say can change this. There is no counterargument. You've already found the closest things to support you could in the RAW:
    -"You can sell partially charged wands you find." By find they mean take off of people you killed, who never got a chance to use them up (note: you will NEVER fight an enemy with a wand of Divine Power). This doesn't say you can buy whatever PCWs you want, therefore you can't. Logically, it makes no sense for you to be able to: see below.
    -"You can create characters with partially charged wands." This has zero relevance to characters in play.
    That is *all* the support you have. I've just pointed out exactly why it doesn't apply. Therefore, you can't buy partially charged wands by RAW, and no DM will let you do it either.

    To suggest that you can buy whatever PCWs you want because you can sell ones you find, you are relying on a ridiculous leap of logic.
    -If the party finds a partially charged wands, you can sell it.
    -Therefore, someone is buying partially charged wands.
    -Therefore, buying partially charged wands is possible.
    -Therefore, buying a wand with any number of charges is possible.
    That last step is where all semblance of reasoning breaks down. There may be demand, but there is NOT supply. No one is providing the merchants in the exact town you're in with wands that have the exact number of charges of the exact spell you're looking for. Games don't work that way, odds don't work that way, NOTHING works that way.

    In order to have a wand, someone in the area must have bought a fully charged wand and sold it off partially charged. They would have had to sell a wand of *one specific spell* with *the exact number of charges you want*. The odds of that are microscopic. The odds are even lower than that for USEFUL spells, since people would keep using them.
    I have never sold a useful wand at 5, 10, 15, etc charges remaining. Ever. Neither have you. Neither has anyone else, except once in a blue moon. There are no sellers, which is the reasoning behind PCWs not being availible for general purchase.

    "But then you're saying I can't buy back the PCW I just sold!" No, I'm not. You could reasonably buy *that specific wand* back, just because there's no verisimilitude otherwise.
    But the rules don't say you can buy wants in whatever number of charges you want. That only applies to character creation. STOP trying to extrapolate--the RAW is the RAW.

    2. Having said that, UMD and partially charged wands give the joker monk maximum flexibility, but it is of course also possible to a) get along with only fully charged wands purchase (wand of enlarge available level 4, wand of silence available level 7 with 25% wbl for single item, etc.).
    This should tell you HOW MUCH your monk relies on these wands. One Wand of silence at level 7?
    Look at what your monk build has at level 6:
    "3x Enlarge (5 charges each, total 1,125)
    2x Heroism (bard version, 1 charge each, total 1,200)
    2x Silence (1 charge each, total 900)
    2x Hide from Animals (2 charges each, total 300)
    2x Obscuring Mist (2 charges each, total 300)
    2x Detect Secret Doors (1 charge each, total 150)
    2x Detect Magic (1 charge each, total 75)
    2x Comprehend Languages (1 charge each, total 150)
    2x Cure Light Wounds (2 charges each, total 300)
    2x Resist Energy (Ranger version, 1 charge each, 300)"
    It's blatantly obvious just how much your monk depends on partially charged wands.
    Furthermore, it's obvious that he depends on PCWs so much because he can't afford to buy fully-charged wands of third- and fourth-level spells at the levels he'd need them.

    And, you can even get good joker monk tactcis with only permanent items (divine power can be obtained from level 15 with a ring of spell storing, according to the 25% maximum per item rule of wbl).
    [/QUOTE]
    Anyone who buys a Ring of Spell Storing before they buy a Ring of Freedom of Movment is making a huge mistake. But let's say you make that mistake.

    Where are you going to get four Divine Powers a day? We've gone over this long ago: you ARE NOT entitled to 4 of the cleric's spell slots. He has many, many uses for them--for himself AND for the party (Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Air Walk, Greater Magic Weapon). You can get 1 a day, maybe. This is NOT enough to rely on.

    By the way.
    50 charges = ~3.5 levels.
    If you want to start using a Wand of Divine Power at level 9, you'll have spent almost 40k on 2 wands of Divine Power buy now, and be buying a third. That's 60k. But let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say you manage to sit some encounters out. That's 40k on 2 wands of Divine Power (one before level 15, and one bought at level 15). That's 20k on 2 wands of Blink. That's 20k more on 2 wands of Heroism. That's ~13k more on the 2nd-level wands you'd have used by now, at least. The sum? 93k out of 200k spent JUST on consumables. This is why people laugh at you when you suggest that you can afford your wands without cutting VERY SIGNIFICANTLY into your WBL (which will dramatically reduce your effectiveness: spend the remaining 107k, quick!).

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    1. Partially charged wands are possible. Get over it. It’s on p.199 for creating characters above 1st level. If they introduce this principle there, why not apply it for the usual adventuring career as well? Or rather, where is it excluded for the usual adventuring career? Would make no sense. In fact, it even gets explicitly mentioned again for normal 1-20 level play when talking about finding and selling treasure on DMG p. 214-215. If you can sell, there must be a buyer. It would make no sense at all if only npcs could buy partially charged wands. To all of you with the (unique even!) used car analogies: Which type of treasure will be more common? Brand new 50 charge wands? Or the used kind?
    Assume for a while that x new wands of enlarge get produced every year in the campaign. Year 1: X wands of 50 charges enter the market. Next year: another X wands of 50 charges enter the market. However, now the market is already full of X wands of the previous year THAT ALREADY WERE USED IN PART. It is highly likely that some of those will get exchanged already in a secondary market. Year 3: another X wands of 50 charges hit the market. And so on. And so on. Now, guess – are there more used wands or more new wands in the market?
    Back to the used car analogy: are there more used cars on the market or new ones?
    Conclusion: it would be an incredibly far-fetched, without any explicit rules description- based notion to think about pcs ONLY able to buy fully charged wands.
    DMG p. 214-215 provides (as you say) an explicit GP value for partially charged items, after that we run into economic logic, and that can be a very troublesome thing in D&D 3.X.

    Now before examining the question of whether partial charged wands are avaqilable for purchase:
    - New wands have 50 charges. If a wand dealer gets all of his stock new, then he will only have wands with 50 charges.
    - For a wand dealer to have partially charged wands he must be buying partially charged wands, uness he is buying full wands and then using up the charges.
    - If he is buying used wands then he will have a stock of wands with some distribution of remaining charges from 0-50.
    - Some wand dealers who also buy new stocks may have more than 1/50th of their stock as full wands, but beyond this (AFAIK) we have no further infomation on what the distribution of charges would be. It will be easiest for any further calculations to assume that any wand dealer who does sell partially charged wands will not have a disproportional number of fully charged wands.

    The question then arises: "How large a stock of wands would a merchant need to have, in order to be likely to be able to provide the Giamonk with the wand he wishes to purchase?"

    When the Giamonk wants to purchase wands with low numbers of charges he should be reasonably happy purchasing wands with less than his ideal charge count. As all charges have equal value it would not be unreasonable to assume that the Giamonk can trade in a wand with less than his ideal number of charges when buying a wand with more charges, effectivly paying only for the increased number of charges. If this assumption is not true then the wand stock required to sarisfy the Giamonk's desired purchasing will significantly increase.

    Examples have been given of wands with 5 chages, so I will take that as the target. Assuming wand charges are evenly distributed (as we have no better ssumption) an average of 1/10th of all wands will have 1-5 charges, giving a average number of charges of (1+5)/2 + 9x(6+50)/2 = 255 possesed by the wand-dealer for each (1+5)/2 = 3 charges purchaseable by the Giamonk (that is 85 charges per purchasable charge).

    At second level the Giamonk wants to spend "150 approx (for instance, 5 CLW, 5 enlarge)", that would require a wand stock to the value of 12,750 GP in those two types of wand only.


    In order to continue this analyis I a question that I need to know the answer for:
    How many different types of wands of each spell level are likley to be commonly available for purchase?

    #edit
    From Reel On, Love's post above
    "3x Enlarge (5 charges each, total 1,125)
    2x Heroism (bard version, 1 charge each, total 1,200)
    2x Silence (1 charge each, total 900)
    2x Hide from Animals (2 charges each, total 300)
    2x Obscuring Mist (2 charges each, total 300)
    2x Detect Secret Doors (1 charge each, total 150)
    2x Detect Magic (1 charge each, total 75)
    2x Comprehend Languages (1 charge each, total 150)
    2x Cure Light Wounds (2 charges each, total 300)
    2x Resist Energy (Ranger version, 1 charge each, 300)"
    Assuming wand charges are evenly distributed (as we have no better ssumption) an average of 1/25th of all wands will have 1-2 charges, giving a average number of charges of (1+2)/2 + 24x(3+50)/2 = 637.5 possesed by the wand-dealer for each (1+2)/2 = 1.5 chargs purchaseable by the Giamonk (that is 425 charges per purchasable charge).

    Assuming wand charges are evenly distributed (as we have no better ssumption) an average of 1/12.5th of all wands will have 1-4 charges, giving a average number of charges of (1+4)/2 + 12.5x(5+50)/2 = 346.25 possesed by the wand-dealer for each (1+4)/2 = 2.5 chargs purchaseable by the Giamonk (that is 138.5 charges per purchasable charge).

    3x Enlarge (5 charges each, total 1,125) - stock cost negligible
    2x Heroism (bard version, 1 charge each, total 1,200) - stock cost 765,000 GP
    2x Silence (1 charge each, total 900) - stock cost 573,750 GP
    2x Hide from Animals (2 charges each, total 300) - stock cost 103,875 GP
    2x Obscuring Mist (2 charges each, total 300) - stock cost 103,875 GP
    2x Detect Secret Doors (1 charge each, total 150) - stock cost 95,625 GP
    2x Detect Magic (1 charge each, total 75) - stock cost 47,812.5 GP
    2x Comprehend Languages (1 charge each, total 150) - stock cost 95,625 GP
    2x Cure Light Wounds (2 charges each, total 300) - stock cost 103,875 GP
    2x Resist Energy (Ranger version, 1 charge each, 300)" - stock cost 191250 GP

    and that stock cost is a minimum - it assumes that the merchant is an average seller with only just enough appropriate stock to satisfy the Giamonk. Now add the value of the other stock owned (and if Heroism (bard version) is in stock I would expect the merchant to have many more common wands that were not on the list).

    Note: The stock value may be divided between multiple sellers, this is just the value of the stock the monk needs to look through to find what he wants.
    Last edited by Roog; 2008-06-01 at 08:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    I think that the hilarious thing about this is that an expert could Gonk better than a Gonk. It gets UMD as a class skill.

    I also object to a character who is powerful only because he can spend all of his money on items that allow him to mimic (a limited amount of times) another class' class abilities that it doesn't have to pay for. And even then, the Giamonk routinely fails to cast the spells he needs because he relies entirely on a cross-class skill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurellien View Post
    Here's a good one

    "We are not working on 4th edition and we have no plans for it."
    -Every single person at WotC when asked
    You sir, win.

    Robin of Whitehills, NG Human Druid IV, by me.


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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurellien View Post
    I think that the hilarious thing about this is that an expert could Gonk better than a Gonk. It gets UMD as a class skill.

    I also object to a character who is powerful only because he can spend all of his money on items that allow him to mimic (a limited amount of times) another class' class abilities that it doesn't have to pay for. And even then, the Giamonk routinely fails to cast the spells he needs because he relies entirely on a cross-class skill.
    Join the club.

    As divine power has no target or area (being a personal range spell), a wand of such a spell cannot be activated.
    Scorching Ray doesn't have a target or an area in the spell description, but you can still use wands of Scorching Ray.

    Or am I confusing 'Target' with target?
    Last edited by Solo; 2008-06-01 at 09:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Hmmm, since you get all so hyped about the partial wand thing, two suggestions of mine, to keep this thread dominated by this - imo- side issue:

    1) my guide should be understood currently as advice for players wishing to create characters of the respective levels. Then, in any case, p. 199 should hold, and the level 6 playtest is definitely valid.
    2) for ongoing level 1-20 characters careers , I completely subject myself to the decision of a poster whose rules knowledge so far I think is the biggest on these boards.

    Oh, Lord_Silvanos, I summon thee!
    What will it be? Can partially charged wands only be sold, and never bought by pcs? I bow to your answer.


    If his decision is yes - no partial charged wands buying -, then I'll post an alternative equipment list for a character able to buy only fully charged wands. You'll be surprised how little changes.

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    And the part about gaining additional uses of the grapple check for high BAB? Does that mention natural attacks? Does it mention gaining additional uses of the grapple check for other related additional attack abilities? No? Oh yeah, that means it doesn't work. Just sayin.
    that part is in the FAQ, i can repeat it again if you did not read it the first time.

    WRONG. The SRD contains errata to books, and primary source applies to ANY D&D rule set. Period. Unless you can show me where in the primary source ruling it mentions that material Wizards publishes on the internet is exempt from it, you are, yet again, wrong. Text trumps tables. Well, there are tables in the SRD, the exact same ones in the core books, and there is text in the SRD, exactly as listed in the core books. Does that text only trump the table in the paper copy of the book? Or are you going to relinquish your death grip on this utterly absurd concept?
    i wonder how much its going to take to make you understand, that no matter how much you scream and wave your "primary source" flag around, then it still wont change anything, the FAQ isnt overruling anything, its just showing us where we misunderstand things.

    Let me make this clearer, since you seem to have disregarded it or misunderstood it the first several times I posted it...
    SRD trumps FAQ.

    FAQ says something different than SRD? If no, then all is well. If yes, then SRD is in error. PERIOD. End of discussion. Disagree all you like with that truth, but you're tilting with windmills if you do, Don Quixote.
    im sorry, but bigger letters doesnt make you more right, though in this case you are actualy accidentialy right, the SRD can be in error, im happy we can agree with this and move on.

    Ah, now that is a misperception. Also, please don't denigrate others with comments such as "you sound drunk". At least, don't do it to me. I don't appreciate it, and I suspect it borders on inflammatory.

    If not everything is balanced, then nothing is balanced. Why? Because in order for something to be balanced, it must be balanced against everything else. If one part of the scale isn't balanced, then nothing is in balance.
    and please dont unsult others with accusations of double standarts.
    and that last part is a load of rubbish, one thing can be in balance without everything else also being so, as long as there is enough other things to balance it against.

    The windmill is not a dragon. If the rules don't agree with you, they're obviously misunderstood, even when they spell out in simple text exactly what gets you additional grapple checks (Hint: high base attack bonus). Is flurry listed? Are other sources of extra attacks listed? No? No? THEN NO. It is not a misunderstanding if the rules directly contradict you. The only misunderstanding is when you think they don't.
    in this case your dragon isnt a windmill, its the FAQ, but im sorry to say, disbelive it all you want, it wont make it go away.

    Do me a favor, point out the bridge-building rules in D&D. Then cast a fireball in real life. Then ACKNOWLEDGE THAT D&D IS NOT REAL LIFE, AND IS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO FOLLOW ANY OR ALL OF THE RULES NORMALLY ASSOCIATED WITH REAL LIFE.

    In other words, your argument has no basis in RAW, and is thus disregarded as non-supportive opinion.
    again, writting in caps still wont make you right, and as long as you are grabbing at things outside RAW then i feel free to do the same.

    Yup, exactly the same... Oh wait. They're not. Your interpretation seems to be inserting imaginary text into the SRD, and claiming it as RAW, just misunderstood.
    besides the part in the FAQ where they explains how those additional attacks from FOB is to be considderet from bab.

    Is it in Core? Yup. Is in in the SRD? Yup.
    Then it's no more or less likely to exist in the world than ANYTHING ELSE IN THE SRD, and your argument assumes homebrew removal of the text. HOMEBREW has nothing to do with RAW
    actualy no, the only thing there is in core, is the possibility of creating a lion thats bigger than standart, you are the one trying to drag homebrew into this.

    Ah, again, either everything is balanced, or nothing is. You argue against what you feel to be broken, in your opinion. I'll argue against what is against RAW and SRD. This is why I have Win, and you have Fail.
    beside the part about everything either being balanced or not, and you misunderstanding raw, if you were really so full of win, then how can it be you cant come up with some decent arguments, and instead have to depend bigger letters to make your argument appear bigger?

    Then I'm sure I've provided rebuttal showing why the above answer is completely flawed
    we are all flawed creatures, but in this discussion your rebuttal takes first prize there.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  14. - Top - End - #944
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    So PHB, DMG, and MM are Primary Sources when it comes to how to play the game. Only Errata can overrule them
    yes but as i have been trying to say before, the FAQ is telling us when we are misunderstanding things in the Core books.

    Finished searching for: Lion Total instances found: 0
    The only example in the FAQ is on page 95, and its using a bear.
    ok sorry, i guess they dont actualy say lion there, though they do cover Rake, wich is the relevant part for this discussion, and leads me to suspect you only brought this up to be annoying.

    Except you are. Grapple checks to do damage are explicitly not attacks. You get one for every attack your Base Attack Bonus would have allowed, even if you don't normally make multiple attacks in this manner. So a level 20 monk would get 3 attacks. It doesn't matter if you're hasted, using FoB, whatever.
    the text with grapple checks that refer to BAB do so because thats the standart situation, in the more specific situation where the one grappling is a monk, then FoB gives the option of additional attempts, after what i read in the FAQ.

    So, taking the normal existence of a Dire Lion to me normal and run-of-the-mill, its impossible for there to be sure there aren't stronger, mor powerful ones?
    sure, stronger and more powerfull lions could have rolled higher hp on their HD, or might have higher str than a standart lion because it rolled its stats.

    but, its the same as with horses, yes there are horses that are bigger and stronger than normal horses, but if you get a horse the size of an elephant then it would be something totaly different.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Oh, Lord_Silvanos, I summon thee!
    What will it be? Can partially charged wands only be sold, and never bought by pcs? I bow to your answer.
    I'm not Lord_Silvanos, but I think the rumpus over this has shown, that there is no overwhelming argument that in a campaign played by RAW partially charged wands can easily be brought when needed. So, given the purposes of a guide, it would be best not to assume partialy charged wands are available (except at character creation), and to simply give advise about purchasing them if and when they are available.

  16. - Top - End - #946

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Giamoco, I demand an apology from you. In this post you have blatantly lied on several occasions about what I have said in an effort to discredit me and accused me of things I have not done. If you do not apologize for doing so, I will report you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    3. I never said that with a spiked chain the joker monk (or any monk) can flurry. This is wishful thinking of Chosen_of_Vecna trying again strawman techniques because he runs out of arguments. I was arguing from the side of the combat reflexes feat, which Chosen_of_Vecna maintaining he read my guide completely, apparently has overlooked. The spiked chain likewise is not a weapon proficiency for the joker monk, he has it simply to disarm foes from 20ft afar (with quite sufficiently high modifier even with the -4 for non-proficiency, in particular vs small-weapon-carrying-enemy-sneak attacks; working even when flat-footed). Of course, with 10ft reach vs ugrly green thing mooks, he can easily also get his high unarmed damage as AoO. It's a monk, guys, so he can have his hands full with wands or a spiked chain and still kick around like hell (or use head butts, whatever).
    This is ridiculous. I never said a single thing about Spiked Chains or feats for your Monk, or Flurrying. That was another poster. The fact that you repeat my name three times in reference to a post made by another, going so far as to accuse me of Strawmanning about a subject I have never posted is insulting and absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    4. In a way I find it amusing (though reminicent of the double standards prevalent by many posters around here) that the joker monk receives the full power of criticism for using consumable items (“how can you afford that”), while no-one sees it adequate to point out to Chosen_of_Vecna that a full round (ONE ROUND!) of attack of his acid flasks mean 50 gp spent per round of combat. Well...the enlarge spell from a wand lasting 10 (TEN!) rounds costs the joker monk only 15 gp. Assuming that the average combat lasts 5 rounds, the AcidRogue burns about 1,000 gp per day. Do not get me wrong- I think the acid flask sneak attack idea is great, but I would expect my joker monk build treated with similar fairness.
    Ah, and one acid flask weighs 1 pound. So for five rounds of 5 attacks each, that's already 25 pounds weighing down the rogue. Four of such encounters? 100 pounds. Better get a bag of holding...
    The Acid Rogue does 12d6 damage per acid flask. That means that a single full attack that costs 50gp (or 17.5 gp with craft skill) does 60d6 damage (average 210 damage). The whole point is that encounters don't last 5 rounds. They last 2, in which there is one full attack, or maybe two. So that's 33gp per encounter at worst.

    I also would have no problem with your Divine Power usage if it was all you were using, but when you start claiming scrolls of animal shapes, scrolls of AMF, wands of everything under the sun, and Divine Power for every fight (even though it only lasts 7 rounds, and so would likely need to be repeated since every fight involves running away and smoking bottle). That equates to a lost more then 15gp per encounter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    5. On that great core-without-monk-party taking on consistently CR 11 creatures by Chosen_of_Vecna, I kindly ask you all to have a look at the kind of CR 11 challenges for a party. Of the 24 core CR 11 monsters I found, almost all have a way to attack a lame 40ft overland-flying wizard.
    Stop saying this. I never claimed that Overland Flight was his only defense, or that he was fighting alone, or that he would just sit around and not attack back. All of those are stupid assumptions. He would clearly have other defenses, a party, and would incapacitate those enemies. Not to mention going before his opponent in most cases. He doesn't care if his opponent fires a 13d6 Cone of Cold at him (missing the other three party members because he is forced to attack the flying Wizard) when the next round his enemy faces 30d6 Acid damage, a Save versus Daze, and two charging pounces that result in Pins and several saves against poison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    The rogue trying to throw an acid flask within 30ft for sneak would be faced often with superior ranged attacks from most monsters or immunity to sneak attack (not to mention the skyrocketing costs or hazards of carrying around xd6 acid damage possbily affecting HIM).
    Except the Rogue is sneaky, he can fire greater distances and still get SA, and he can bypass immunity in many cases. Not to mention the absolute zero risk of carrying acid flasks in his Handy Haversack, the one that with Quick Draw allows him to remove them as a free action which also negates the weight. Though even if the flasks did effect him they would still do only 1d6 damage to him each, which is largely ignorable, because of course his damage comes from SA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    The fighter’s will save would be targeted quite often (and most monsters would be quite formidable to oppose any trip attacks-I KNOW, Talic, that tumble does not prevent trip, thanks for making that up; although archery would carry some chances).
    Which doesn't matter because it's much smarter to play with a Druid, who is a better fighter then a fighter in every single way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    And Chosen_of_Vecna’s cleric with the following spells...
    Spoiler
    Show

    Magic+Travel
    5+1
    Entropic Shield
    Magic Weapon
    Bless x3
    Longstrider
    5+1
    Hold Person x5
    Identify
    4+1
    Bestow Curse x2
    Searing Light
    Fly
    4+1
    Divine Power x4
    Dimension Door
    2+1
    Righteous Might x2
    Spell Resistance
    And once again, THIS IS NOT MY CLERIC. In fact, this is exactly the opposite of how I described my Cleric. Stop claiming that other people's posts are mine. It is disingenuous and insulting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    6. Speaking about that attack: yep, the acid is not affected by damage reduction (no elemental attack is). My bad. However, the blink always means 20% of it is useless attack. The reason: yes, the moment the acid leaves the end on the etheral plane, it becomes material again AND DROPS TO THE GROUND. Because it lacks the etheral plane propulsion when it re-enters the material plane. This is just the logic explanation. The RAW explanation is found in the blink spell description. 20% to ATTACKS, not just melee attacks (it also applies to spells btw). And the acid flask has no secondary damage of any kind (neither the PHB nor the DMG p. 302 "An attack with acid, such as from a hurled vial or a monster's spittle, counts as round of exposure." descriptions suggest so).
    Unfortunately for you, it retains its propulsion, and it has no miss chance. The miss chance only applies to whether or not it is ethereal or not. Since the Blink spell no longer effects the flask after it is thrown, it therefore has no miss chance. Just as the 20% miss chance of the Blink spell ceases to affect the rogue after it's duration expires.

    That's just how it works. Deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    9. A ring of blinking for a level 10 character means you spend more than 50% of your wbl on one item, which is not advised by the DMG (p.199 again).
    The DMG also doesn't advise that you slay hapless commoners in evil delight. But that happens. And so a character that saves up money for a Ring of Blink can get it, because they can go buy it at the store. Money doesn't cease to have value over a certain amount determined based on level, even though no one can tell what level you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    If you allow it, though, you can imagine that a different joker monk already has the monk’s belt at that level and more charges in a wand of divine power, with a cloak of CHR +4 and a wand of heroism (meaning UMD +19 check). Tadaaa...monk has an attack bonus of +18/+18/+13 with 4d8+7 damage each on a hit (in level 11, the no. of attacks this way rise to 5 btw!). Something tells me that this equates the acidflasking 6d6 per (80% chance) hits of the rogue quite often. The monk will not have to spend that much more to get divine power or acid all the time, in case you wonder (420 gp+90+15 per 7 round encounter for the monk, 350gp for the rogue).
    Yes, you can have those things, if you can afford them as well as all the wands you want. But since you have to buff, and the Rogue doesn't. And it doesn't compare, because the rogue does 60d6 damage in one attack, cost 17.5gp. And you after buffing need to move adjacent, thus becoming more vulnerable.

    Note also that the rogue doesn't have any miss chance, and that your attacks never occur because by the time you get your first full attack, the rogue would already have killed his opponent. And 17.5gp per encounter is nothing next to your daily expenditures on heroism, and encounter expenditures on enlarge/divine power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    10. This thread largely discusses a CORE monk build. So it makes no sense to say that xy class from z companion is so much more uber with the dragon issue #2451 feat and special definitely better at grappling. The reason for keeping to core rules is the greater ease to discuss what is possible within the rules and not. I never ever maintained that beyond core, there is any semblance of balance left. An easy example is that there is no special 3.5 monk companion by WoTC, which already speaks volumes in my eyes about what class will likely get behind outside core.
    And, of course, many people play core only. There is even a whole core coliseum duel thread put up, which is highly popular.
    1) Don't say bull**** about Dragon #X, you are purposefully hyperboling. No one has yet mentioned anything from any Dragon, and in fact, only the SRD, and a very few feats from the Complete series, the most commonly used books in the game. Leave your hyperbole out of it.

    2) It empathetically does make sense to talk about non-core material and how it compares, because, for the billionth time, everyone else here plays D&D. We play D&D. No one cares that you hate playing D&D, have never played your fictional monk, and hate the idea of actually having options and using them. We don't care. We play D&D, which includes all books with the big fat D&D stamp on them.

    3) No special Monk companion? No kidding, there's also not a special Wizard companion, Special Cleric Companion, Special Fighter Companion, or anything else.

    There is the Complete Adventurer, which supports all characters, but is aimed at Rogues/Bards/Monks and to a lesser extent Rangers. And the Complete Warrior, which supports all characters but is aimed at Monks/Fighters/Barbarians/Paladins and Rangers. And the Complete Divine which supports Clerics/Druids/Paladins and Rangers.

    No class gets their own compendium. Everyone shares. If there was a special Monk only book, it would be indicative of support for Monks in excess of that for other classes.

  17. - Top - End - #947
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Now, on Talic's post...(not adressing the partial wand stuff, nuff said about that, see my post above)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    .You have said that the reason UMD is viable for monk, even though it is not a class skill, is that the monk gets greater benefit out UMD than other classes can.
    Where? Care to point me to it? But let he help you: what I said, and always said throughout this thread and before is that the monk makes more use out of UMD FOR SOME SPELLS. FOR SOME SPELLS!!!! (and I listed them). Could you therefore please stop maintaining things I never said? This only shows you get more and more desparate.

    This is a direct refutation of that. If you like, I can go back and find at least three such posts that you have made, and link them.

    By all means do.

    As divine power has no target or area (being a personal range spell), a wand of such a spell cannot be activated.

    WHAT? Talic, pls read the divine power description, under the entry "Target: You". I am not sure, but this could be your one of your worst mistake so far. I do not know if I should get more confused about your desperation to avoid admitting being wrong, or about the other monk-haters not even correcting you for such an obvious mistake.

    Yes, by removing other abilities. This is not morph-a-monk. You get a finite list of abilities. And relying on one spell to cast another is like hiring a chauffeur to drive you around. Costs a lot more.

    DOUBLE WHAT? OK, this must be some kind of test...I'm starting to get it. You are all WoTC designers in disguise trying to get out all my arguments...well, er likely not.
    Anyhow, care to tell me what OTHER ABILTIES the joker monk would remove by getting a cloak +2 and using a wand of heroism? He removes/replaces OTHER ITEMS (and even Reel on, Love would agree that he could even SELL partially charged wands...). Now that is a BIG difference, wouldn' you agree?
    And how again is getting a chaffeur a bad thing? Note (maybe you overlooked it): while the joker monk buffs his UMD check by +2, interestingly enough, for 80minutes the following of his ABILITIES get increased by +2 as as well: all attacks, all skill uses (remember that stealth skills he has quite high? He now has them higher) and all saves.
    So, in your analogy, yes. It's a chauffeur who at the same time will protect you, serve you drinks, and generally make you better at everything you do. Heck, yes, I'd love to get that chauffeur.

    The point is, the build you listed in the guide was incapable of doing the things you said it could do. This shows a flawed argument from flawed reasoning

    Actually, Talic, you so far showed great perseverance in trying to prove that the joker monk is useless. In a way, I think you do better than many posters here who just jump here shouting "monk sucks", "grapple is sub-par like archery, everyone knows that" (reasons given: none), etc.
    However, I am a bit worried here.
    You make up stuff I did not post, you commit about 10 rules mistake per post you make and all of this does not somehow convince me that you can contribute anything constructive.
    Pages ago you announced you would soon post a much superior monk guide. Where is that? What will it offer that can be considered new and innovative? What will it do to encourage others to play who believe monks are weak and shy away from it? Since YOU believe the monk is a weak class, guess what: you'll end up posting a weak class guide inspiring no one.

    Points to consider. 1) alchemical skill can reduce the cost of acid flasks to 1/3 listed price. There is no experience cost to create said items.

    Well, that's a good idea. But...two points to consider
    a) at 1/3, or 16,7 gold PER ATTACK you are still way above the key buff cost for the monk for the whole encounter (remember: 15 gold per encounter. Add 90gp from heroism and you are still below the cash the rogue burns per encounter. And if you believe a CR 11 dragon will calmly let you get within 30ft to do TWO FULL ROUND ATTACKS at it in a row, it is small wonder that you, too, believe that the party should continuously be able to take on higher CR monsters.
    b) You forgot to look into PHB p.71 before making your claim. Acid can only be produced by spellcasters (craft: alchemy).

    2) acid is one option, along with fire, and crossbow, to gain 6d6 damage at level 9. Not all need to be used in 1 fight.

    Yes, but then you give up that vital advantage of the acid trick: the ranged touch attack. Ranged weapons plus sneak plus some extra oomph? Now that's new..

    If crossbows don't work, move to acid. If acid doesn't work, move to fire.Or craft it as you need it. Also, you won't be likely making 5 attacks a round, and if you do, you're doing 30d6 damage a round, or average damage of 105 damage per round. The fight won't last 5 rounds. That level of damage will drop most CR 13 dragons in 2 rounds.and it makes sense that the rogue, who has that class feature, has provisions for surviving within 30 feet.

    Nope. Not vs a CR 13 dragon or lower-level dragons (e.g. blindsight?...). And will the rogue now do two full-round attacks or not? You can't have both (like, for instance, tumbling vs AoO AND full-attacking).

    Could you point out where I said that you believed that tumble completely stopped it. I said that what you said wasn't accurate. It didn't tell the full story. I filled that in. But thanks for making up that I'm making things up.

    And you made things up that I made things up that you made things up. Or up? Whatever...
    My original post referred to AoO, and it was obvious. It was not even an issue about monks, it was some aside in brackets about fighters.

    Then you didn't look at them, or your random selection is suspiciously slanted. Methinks that less than 75% of CR 11 monsters fly.
    Which is what your "cross sampling" has... conveniently when arguing against a melee build.


    Now THIS is a case of "no complete story". The remaining 25% may have some sort of other attacking way at range available (like...spells? Superior stealth?). Although I guess the wizard would be quite safe from the earth elemental and the stone golem (unfortunately golems often are put up as guards in confined spaces to prevent such things...).

    If you dim door and stay in the fight, you're not retreating. If you hide, you are.

    A CLASSIC! Thanks for using that double standard again. It's actually one of my favourite. I see you playing rogues that never hide in combat.

    One buff. One. and that buff, at level 9? Heroism, so that he can have that 100% of doing the others.

    What are you referring to now? The cleric or the joker monk? Both will at least need one round to buff, but the joker monk may know more probably about an encounter coming up, giving him more time.

    Wrong. the reasoning that it doesn't work for blink is that the blink description states that it doesn't. That's called "RAW". Could you point out where I suggested Blink?

    I did not mean you. I think the blinking rogue never having a miss chance with thrown flasks is an idea from Chosen_of_Vecna. (it's wrong of course).

    I'm pretty sure my suggested spell was the level 4 invisibility spell, which does NOT carry that miss chance.

    Ah, I see. OK.

    But it is rare that the monk doesn't need to spend that round buffing. It's also rare that the monk will always have surprise, as typically, the monk is intruding on others, not vice versa. This increases the chances of being ambushed.

    No, this actually increases the chance of being the one to surprise for the stealthy character since even prepared opponents never know WHEN they are going to be attacked. The adventuring party has the tactical initiative advantage, so to say.

    How are you getting 80% on acid? By my listing, it's 95%... And then only because a 1 always misses.

    Yes, true, with a (more expensive) improved invisbility. If the enemy (dragon, elder air elemental, demon, whatever) has some methods of bringing up own concealment or seeing invisbilitly, then that advantage is negated quickly. The monk's 4d8 unarmed damage? Not so much.

    However, most books include support options and monk PrC's. Show me one book that is a paladin companion, or a ranger companion.

    Heroes of Valor? There is even a ranger-specific prestige class (horizon walker) in the core rules. But true, ranger and paladin are also somewhat the stepchildren.

    Removed entries which are contradicted by primary source. FoB is not Base attack bonus, any more than melee attack bonus is. Both are modified to include something else.

    FoB: read PHB entry pp. 40-41. And if you do not accept the FAQ, well...

    Then why did you post a grappling counter to a rogue with +5d6 sneak attack damage, which is attained at level 9? Thanks for showing how you contradict yourself.

    Well, that was not a contradiction. I never said anything about grappling. That monk used normal unarmed strikes at level 9-10, which is what I have been suggesting since the first post (the guide). Within total concealment and blind-fighting, this gives him some good chances vs more enemies (including those that try to sneak or spell attack him).

    I do not think acknowledge means quite what you think it does. I don't respond to everything because I'm busy.

    I have the feeling that the following sentence:
    "Giacomo, sorry - I think I have truly been wrong in most of my post." put at the beginning of this post (again full of errors imo), would not have meant much extra time.

    In the past 3 days, I've spent 36 hours moving, and another 16 working, and about 8 sleeping. I do hope you'll forgive me if I prioritize responding to your erroneous views slightly lower than you seem to think they merit.

    Ah I see - in that case I'm sorry. Get some good sleep, then - it will help you avoid too obvious rules mistakes!

    - Giacomo
    Last edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-06-01 at 10:47 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #948
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    1. Partially charged wands are possible. Get over it.
    This is why people think you're trolling. Just FYI.

    5. On that great core-without-monk-party taking on consistently CR 11 creatures by Chosen_of_Vecna, I kindly ask you all to have a look at the kind of CR 11 challenges for a party. Of the 24 core CR 11 monsters I found, almost all have a way to attack a lame 40ft overland-flying wizard.
    Spoiler for details:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Air Elemental, Elder -- sure.
    Dragons (5) -- sure.
    Cryohydra -- no. (breath attack doesn't have good range)
    Demon, Hezrou -- no.
    Demon, Retriever -- yes... kinda nasty one too
    Devil, Barbed -- sort of -- weak DC spell likes
    Devourer -- weak DC spell likes
    Earth Elemental, Elder -- nope.
    Fire Elemental, Elder -- nope.
    Cloud Giant -- sure.
    Stone Golem -- no.
    Harpy, Archer -- yes.
    Hydra, Twelve headed -- no.
    Lycanthrope, Hill Giant Dire Wereboar -- not making that up, its a statted critter. Nope.
    Colossal Monstrous Spider -- nope.
    Nightmare, Cauchemar -- yes
    Pyrohydra -- nope (see Cryohydra)
    Troll, Hunter -- Sort of -- javelins with short range increments and easy DC spells
    Water Elemental, Elder -- no
    Dread Wraith -- yes

    Out of 24 monsters, 12.5 have ranged offense. Thats not "almost all have a way to attack".

    The rogue trying to throw an acid flask within 30ft for sneak would be faced often with superior ranged attacks from most monsters or immunity to sneak attack (not to mention the skyrocketing costs or hazards of carrying around xd6 acid damage possbily affecting HIM).
    Immunity to sneak attack? Did you really bring that up?
    Spoiler
    Show

    Air Elemental, Elder -- nope
    Dragons (5) -- sneakable.
    Cryohydra -- nope
    Demon, Hezrou -- sneakable.
    Demon, Retriever -- nope
    Devil, Barbed -- sneakable.
    Devourer -- nope
    Earth Elemental, Elder -- nope.
    Fire Elemental, Elder -- nope.
    Cloud Giant -- sneakable.
    Stone Golem -- no.
    Harpy, Archer -- sneakable.
    Hydra, Twelve headed -- no.
    Lycanthrope, Hill Giant Dire Wereboar -- sneakable.
    Colossal Monstrous Spider -- sneakable.
    Nightmare, Cauchemar -- sneakable.
    Pyrohydra -- nope
    Troll, Hunter -- sneakable.
    Water Elemental, Elder -- no
    Dread Wraith -- no

    13 are sneak attackable. GJ.

    The fighter’s will save would be targeted quite often (and most monsters would be quite formidable to oppose any trip attacks
    And more formidable to grapple, but you've changed tactics by now so thats irrelevant, right?

    -I KNOW, Talic, that tumble does not prevent trip, thanks for making that up; although archery would carry some chances).
    Qoute from you:
    - tripping build? Tumble helps escape it.
    It's not the AoOs you have to really worry about -- its getting tripped in the first place. And you cant use Tumble to stand up.

    And Chosen_of_Vecna’s cleric with the following spells...
    Spoiler
    Show

    Magic+Travel
    5+1
    Entropic Shield
    Magic Weapon
    Bless x3
    Longstrider
    5+1
    Hold Person x5
    Identify
    4+1
    Bestow Curse x2
    Searing Light
    Fly
    4+1
    Divine Power x4
    Dimension Door
    2+1
    Righteous Might x2
    Spell Resistance

    ...is good – but I fail to see how he can decisively contribute to beating an (picking random CR 11 opponents) elder air elemental, an archer harpy, a stone golem and an adult black dragon all on the same day.
    Air Elemental -- Bestow Curse, then either Divine Power and melee/ranged (cleric archers pwn) or melee/ranged without DP and save spells for heals.
    Archer Harpy -- Bless, Entropic Shield, ranged cleric 4tw, with spells saved for heals.
    Stone Golem -- Awesome, you picked something that spells are useless against! Good choice. Its also the easiest thing in the MM to defeat -- outrun it and ranged attack it. The cleric contributes heals to the people who accidentally get caught.
    Adult Black Dragon -- Fly and DP+Ranged attack maybe with a Righteous Might if its needed/you're able to melee isntead of Ranged., with the rest of the spells for healing.

    Going melee appears to be this cleric's main strategy. Now that is not such a good idea imo vs the CR 11 monsters I saw.
    Ranged cleric 4tw, in case you havn't gotten that impression by now.
    His dimension door spell is good...and likely always is considered a “tactical retreat to rain death from somewhere” (whereas the monk retreating would be considered “leaving to death the rest of his group; or more simply “fleeing”).
    Cleric DD's somewhere to allow it to ranged attack easier, or to get to a comrade to heal. Your entire statement about the monk's DD was to allow it to run away from tough encounters.
    And don’t you dare buff for three rounds in a row with bless, divine power and rightuous might...the joker monk was seriously criticised for that (and HE had the stealth skills and initiative mod to allow him to do at least 1-2 buffs btw....)
    Once the cleric is higher level, he can use a Rod of Quickening to get DP and RM off in the same round -- and by that time Bless is negligible.

    c) Bottle tactics basics, again (why do I have to keep repeating it?): the bottle is NOT used when it is disadvantageous for the party. Please stop inventing scenarios of the joker monk using it when the party is in melee combat or such nonsense. Or I will start maintaining that Reel On, Love’s druid ONLY casts entangle with the party in the middle of it, meaning proof that the druid class is useless. d)
    So.. when exactly is it advantageous for the party to have a 50-100' radius cloud of smoke? And you do realize that saying you hide in the smoke is a horrible idea -- you will fail the Fort save eventually, guaranteed.

    8. It is not rare that the group has the surprise on its side (whole character classes like rogue, ranger, monk are built around that concept, and the invisibiltiy spell alone can provide the occasional surprise...). Read the move silently, hide, listen and spot descriptions in the PHB again, pls.
    *sigh* The only skill that, according to the rules, sets encounter distance, is spot. Yes, you can hear someone, and start buffing -- but as soon as you do that, you're easy to hear too (you cant cast wands silently). You then move into line of sight, and spot checks govern surprise. If the other guys see you as well, theres no surprise.

    The monk will not have to spend that much more to get divine power or acid all the time, in case you wonder (420 gp+90+15 per 7 round encounter for the monk, 350gp for the rogue).
    Ignoring the fact that the rogue can craft his own acid -- You're seriously saying that the monk spending 150% of the rogue is not spending much more?

    11. You can flurry a grapple. The flurry of blows explicitly refers to modified BASE attack bonus and the FAQ covers all remaining doubts there are. You can flurry both the initiate grapple, and the no. of grapple checks in a grapple.
    Is your Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus a Base Attack Bonus?

    Why is it so difficult to admit that you have been wrong?
    Pot, Kettle. Kettle, Pot. How ya doin.

  19. - Top - End - #949
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    • Chameleon Base Class [3.5]/[PF]: A versatile, morphic class that mimics one basic party role (warrior, caster, sneak, etc) at a time. If you find yourself getting bored of any class you play too long, the Chameleon is for you!
    • Warlock Power Sources [3.5]: Making Hellfire Warlock part of the base class and providing other similar options for Warlocks whose powers don't come from devils.

  20. - Top - End - #950
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Chosen_of_Vecna View Post
    Giamoco, I demand an apology from you. In this post you have blatantly lied on several occasions about what I have said in an effort to discredit me and accused me of things I have not done. If you do not apologize for doing so, I will report you.
    This is ridiculous. I never said a single thing about Spiked Chains or feats for your Monk, or Flurrying. That was another poster. The fact that you repeat my name three times in reference to a post made by another, going so far as to accuse me of Strawmanning about a subject I have never posted is insulting and absurd.
    I'm sorry. I confounded your post in part with Griffin131's. Hope I edited the names correctly this time. Please - there are so many posters I wish to reply to, it can happen I confound them.

    The Acid Rogue does 12d6 damage per acid flask. That means that a single full attack that costs 50gp (or 17.5 gp with craft skill) does 60d6 damage (average 210 damage). The whole point is that encounters don't last 5 rounds. They last 2, in which there is one full attack, or maybe two. So that's 33gp per encounter at worst.

    At 10th level, the core acid rogue does 6d6 per acid flask. A rogue cannot craft acid himself (see my last post), so you're back to 50 gp per full round attack. It is a good way of attacking, I admitted that several times already, but it is expensive and no "win" vs CR 11 creatures.
    And wouldn't you think it odd that the cost of that tactics is not at all criticised, while 1st and 2nd level wands are?

    I also would have no problem with your Divine Power usage if it was all you were using, but when you start claiming scrolls of animal shapes, scrolls of AMF, wands of everything under the sun, and Divine Power for every fight (even though it only lasts 7 rounds, and so would likely need to be repeated since every fight involves running away and smoking bottle). That equates to a lost more then 15gp per encounter.

    So far the build assumes regular divine power use from around level 14 or so. Animal shapes is bad, bad morphing and only gets whipped out by me vs posters saying OMFG DRUIDZILLA SHAPECHANGING UBER. Scrolls of AMF should be in use around from level 12/13 or so, with increasing frequency. Vs lower-level spell users at that point, SR is a very good defense; and silence spells can also help a lot vs spellcastesr at lower levels.

    Stop saying this. I never claimed that Overland Flight was his only defense, or that he was fighting alone, or that he would just sit around and not attack back. All of those are stupid assumptions. He would clearly have other defenses, a party, and would incapacitate those enemies.

    But...how? What protective spell is there that can protect a wizard of level 10 against CR 11 creatures thinking it's time to target that wizard flying by himself up in the air? What attacking spell will 100% stop them? Solid fog and black tentacles are based on the ground, so it must be a save-or die spell. Save or die for the wizard, it seems...
    If you assume that the party is there to help him out - well, welcome to the club! It's the same party that helped the monk at lower levels to grapple the worst foe and then help him finishing him (or clearing the mooks away).

    Not to mention going before his opponent in most cases. He doesn't care if his opponent fires a 13d6 Cone of Cold at him (missing the other three party members because he is forced to attack the flying Wizard) when the next round his enemy faces 30d6 Acid damage, a Save versus Daze, and two charging pounces that result in Pins and several saves against poison.

    Well, a CR 11 flying into the air to meet the wizard will easily avoid the 30ft sneak range of a rogue, save easily vs daze (from where?), will stop dead in tracks with an AoO any charge and pins? Come on. If around level 9 grappling is no longer a great idea for a monk, why should the barbarian bother with it?
    But what that flying enemy will have a hard time to avoid is the monk flying with 90ft move into its path to intercept it.

    Except the Rogue is sneaky, he can fire greater distances and still get SA,

    not beyond 30ft in core

    and he can bypass immunity in many cases.

    not in core.

    Not to mention the absolute zero risk of carrying acid flasks in his Handy Haversack, the one that with Quick Draw allows him to remove them as a free action which also negates the weight.

    Handy haversack only allows retrieval with a move action (although that does not trigger AoO, which is its big advantage). And also magic items can be sundered/destroyed. I would not call that "absolute zero risk".

    Though even if the flasks did effect him they would still do only 1d6 damage to him each, which is largely ignorable, because of course his damage comes from SA.

    ? Carrying around 10 acid flasks (2 rounds ammunition) will mean 10d6 damage in case something smashes into him or risks breaking the vials (like a fall). This is nothing to shrug off for a rogue at that level, since it happens to be his (non-CON-mod) hp total, without a save.

    Which doesn't matter because it's much smarter to play with a Druid, who is a better fighter then a fighter in every single way.

    Different thread for that one.

    And once again, THIS IS NOT MY CLERIC. In fact, this is exactly the opposite of how I described my Cleric. Stop claiming that other people's posts are mine. It is disingenuous and insulting.

    OK (I wonder what your cleric'S spell list would look like at 10th level - able to take on 4 CR 11 encounters as well in the day with a party?)

    Unfortunately for you, it retains its propulsion, and it has no miss chance. The miss chance only applies to whether or not it is ethereal or not. Since the Blink spell no longer effects the flask after it is thrown, it therefore has no miss chance. Just as the 20% miss chance of the Blink spell ceases to affect the rogue after it's duration expires.That's just how it works. Deal.

    The blink spell description is quite clear about it. It says ATTACKS. Not melee or ranged attacks, only ATTACKS. The rules are fairly exact when they mean ranged or melee or just all attacks. So yes, the acid flasks also suffer from the 20% miss chance. Like spells and all other attacks.

    The DMG also doesn't advise that you slay hapless commoners in evil delight. But that happens. And so a character that saves up money for a Ring of Blink can get it, because they can go buy it at the store. Money doesn't cease to have value over a certain amount determined based on level, even though no one can tell what level you are.

    Buy it? Wow...check out Roog's post what it means how likely it is to get a particular 27,000 gp item... OK, just being ironic here. The DMG acrtually advises not to slay hapless commoners in evil delight (it's in the part about "characters getting too powerful/out of control").
    And you know that if you get a vastly powerful item at low level, it means your character is way more item-dependent than one usin wands of heroism, right?

    Yes, you can have those things, if you can afford them as well as all the wands you want. But since you have to buff, and the Rogue doesn't. And it doesn't compare, because the rogue does 60d6 damage in one attack, cost 17.5gp. And you after buffing need to move adjacent, thus becoming more vulnerable.

    Where do you get your 60d6 damage from? It's 30d6 AT BEST. At level 11, the joker monk has 4 attacks/per round each possibly doing 4d8 damage (total 16d8+20). At a lower cost with even both enlarge and heroism active. With lower to hit, admittedly, but not that much lower (his flurry nets him 3 attacks at his highest attacking level). And the cost is lower than that of the acid flasks.

    Note also that the rogue doesn't have any miss chance, and that your attacks never occur because by the time you get your first full attack, the rogue would already have killed his opponent. And 17.5gp per encounter is nothing next to your daily expenditures on heroism, and encounter expenditures on enlarge/divine power.

    The joker monk has a higher initiative, since your halfling DEX 20 rogue only has 4 feats at level 10 (for point blank shot, rapid shot, two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting).
    The halfling rogue (+2 impr. invisibility, +1 point blank, +1 racial, +1 small size, +5 DEX, +7 BAB, -4 for rapid shot AND two-weapon fighting) at level 10 does 5 touch attacks at +13/+13/+13/+8/+8; for 6d6 damage each. Reduced to 1d6/2 damage by a simple concealment/invisbility by CR 11 opponent (no more sneak, 50% miss chance).
    The enlarged/heroismed human joker monk (+2 morale, +4 STR, -1 size, +7 BAB) in a flurry does +12/+12/+7 and 3d8+4 with each hit. Vs concealed enemy, reduced to 25% miss chance and thus from 18 to around 14 avg damage per hit.
    General Advantage rogue. Price advantage monk. Concealment advantage monk.
    Now ,at level 11 the general advantage rogue narrows drastically (see above) since then the monk all of a sudden has 4 attacks as well and does 1d8 more damage.

    1) Don't say bull**** about Dragon #X, you are purposefully hyperboling. No one has yet mentioned anything from any Dragon, and in fact, only the SRD, and a very few feats from the Complete series, the most commonly used books in the game. Leave your hyperbole out of it.

    The "and a very few feats" are already enough. It simply has no place in core rules argument.

    2) It empathetically does make sense to talk about non-core material and how it compares, because, for the billionth time, everyone else here plays D&D. We play D&D. No one cares that you hate playing D&D, have never played your fictional monk, and hate the idea of actually having options and using them. We don't care. We play D&D, which includes all books with the big fat D&D stamp on them.

    How can you maintain Dragon xyz is a hyperbole and in the next paragraph say that I "hate" D&D, if I want to keep it core for balance/build discusssions? Do you think beginning players buying only the core rules "hate" D&D? Makes no sense to me.
    Outside core, we basically have no argument: yes, outside core, the rules are imbalanced and casters are uber (due to many more spells to choose from vs the no. of feats and prestige classes to choose from. It's fairly simple.

    3) No special Monk companion? No kidding, there's also not a special Wizard companion, Special Cleric Companion, Special Fighter Companion, or anything else.

    There is the Complete Adventurer, which supports all characters, but is aimed at Rogues/Bards/Monks and to a lesser extent Rangers. And the Complete Warrior, which supports all characters but is aimed at Monks/Fighters/Barbarians/Paladins and Rangers. And the Complete Divine which supports Clerics/Druids/Paladins and Rangers.

    No class gets their own compendium. Everyone shares. If there was a special Monk only book, it would be indicative of support for Monks in excess of that for other classes.

    OK, then - do you think outside core the classes are balanced? Probably not.

    - Giacomo

  21. - Top - End - #951
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin131 View Post
    This is why people think you're trolling. Just FYI.
    Pointing out one explicit rule (DMG p.199) and another implicit one is what you call trolling? Oh my.

    Now, as for attacking a flying wizard...

    Spoiler for details:

    Spoiler
    Show

    Air Elemental, Elder -- sure.
    Dragons (5) -- sure.
    Cryohydra -- no. (breath attack doesn't have good range)

    CORRECTION: Yes. Do you know where those hydras live? Why they have swim speed? Sounds like flying does not get the wizard to contribute anything meaningful here. Plus, water offers both concealment and blocks line of effect and something tells me that the hydra can stay quite long under water to ambush the party.
    Demon, Hezrou -- no.
    CORRECTION: Oh, yes, certainly. Unholy blight at will anyone? Gaseous form to sneak up on the wizard? Teleport above wizard to fall on him? This demon has so many abilities to make use of vs a flying wizard, it's a surprise you do not see them.
    Demon, Retriever -- yes... kinda nasty one too
    Devil, Barbed -- sort of -- weak DC spell likes

    CORRECTION: I take that as a "yes" (hold person, teleport, unholy blight...)
    Devourer -- weak DC spell likes
    CORRECTION: I take that as a "yes" . Ignoring Ray of enfeeblement? Confusion? Against a wizard harly raising his WIS score? Come on.
    Earth Elemental, Elder -- nope.
    Fire Elemental, Elder -- nope.

    NOTE: do not forget that these critters can reach up to 30ft high, not to mention that they can jump with their high STR scores even without skill ranks. So the wizard - in confined spaces - could have trouble.
    Cloud Giant -- sure.
    Stone Golem -- no.

    As for the Earth/Fire Elementals.
    Harpy, Archer -- yes.
    Hydra, Twelve headed -- no.

    CORRECTION: YES. Look up where they other hydras live again.
    Lycanthrope, Hill Giant Dire Wereboar -- not making that up, its a statted critter. Nope.
    CORRECTION: Yes. In humanoid form this wereboar easily can have ranged weapons.
    Colossal Monstrous Spider -- nope.
    CORRECTION: 50ft range web. So, YES, the spider will reach the wizard. Plus, in dungeons, it can be anywhere (also on the ceiling - it has a reach of 30! feat. Yuck. And a jumping spider has +20 mod and 40ft space. This can go quite far...)
    Nightmare, Cauchemar -- yes
    Pyrohydra -- nope (see Cryohydra)

    YES. see above.
    Troll, Hunter -- Sort of -- javelins with short range increments and easy DC spells
    So, a yes. The wizard has two low saves.
    Water Elemental, Elder -- no
    CORRECTION: YES. Where again do you think the party encounters a WATER elemental
    Dread Wraith -- yes

    Out of 24 monsters, 12.5 have ranged offense. Thats not "almost all have a way to attack".

    So, out of 24 monsters, ALL have a means of attacking a 40ft flying wizard in the most normal circumstances. There MAY be occasions where the flying wizard runs into earthbound elementals in an open field. Or a spider outside its dungeon. Or a wereboar. Or a golem or whatever. But that's definitely not the norm.

    Immunity to sneak attack? Did you really bring that up?

    Oh yes, and rightfully so, as you prove yourself!

    Spoiler
    Show

    Air Elemental, Elder -- nope
    Dragons (5) -- sneakable.
    Cryohydra -- nope
    Demon, Hezrou -- sneakable.
    Demon, Retriever -- nope
    Devil, Barbed -- sneakable.
    Devourer -- nope
    Earth Elemental, Elder -- nope.
    Fire Elemental, Elder -- nope.
    Cloud Giant -- sneakable.
    Stone Golem -- no.
    Harpy, Archer -- sneakable.
    Hydra, Twelve headed -- no.
    Lycanthrope, Hill Giant Dire Wereboar -- sneakable.
    Colossal Monstrous Spider -- sneakable.
    Nightmare, Cauchemar -- sneakable.
    Pyrohydra -- nope
    Troll, Hunter -- sneakable.
    Water Elemental, Elder -- no
    Dread Wraith -- no

    13 are sneak attackable. GJ.

    Yes, meaning more than a whacking FIFTY PERCENT! Incredible. And the others have ranged attacks that can, long, long before a sneak do horrible things to the rogue before he even gets into 30ft range and/or are faster than he is. Does this mean I think the acid sneak is stupid? No, I think it's great. Does this mean I think it's a win and means the rogue should take on CR 11 creatures? Nope.

    And more formidable to grapple, but you've changed tactics by now so thats irrelevant, right?

    YEp, it's irrelevant. I know why you all always choose level 10. Because at that point the monk is more of a sneaky fighter, rather than more often using full unarmed strike attacks as he does increasingly from level 11 onward.
    So, let's sum up at this point:
    - we have found that 50% of the CR 11 monsters cannot be sneaked by the rogue. The monk, however, will be able to damage all of them (OK, not the few with damage reduction /good or some such. Needs a wand of align weapon for that) with his 4 times 4d8+5 from level 11. (I am not the one trying to take on CR 11 monsters before leve 11 all the time).

    It's not the AoOs you have to really worry about -- its getting tripped in the first place. And you cant use Tumble to stand up.

    No, you use a move action to stand up (triggers no trip AoO), then a move action to tumble out of the trip threat area. Or 5ft step and then attack. Most of the CR 11 creatures are large at the minimum and quite strong. So, the STR advantage is not THAT great for a trip to always work (

    Air Elemental -- Bestow Curse, then either Divine Power and melee/ranged (cleric archers pwn) or melee/ranged without DP and save spells for heals.
    Archer Harpy -- Bless, Entropic Shield, ranged cleric 4tw, with spells saved for heals.
    Stone Golem -- Awesome, you picked something that spells are useless against! Good choice. Its also the easiest thing in the MM to defeat -- outrun it and ranged attack it. The cleric contributes heals to the people who accidentally get caught.
    Adult Black Dragon -- Fly and DP+Ranged attack maybe with a Righteous Might if its needed/you're able to melee isntead of Ranged., with the rest of the spells for healing.

    Ranged cleric 4tw, in case you havn't gotten that impression by now
    .

    Hmmm- not bad. Archery is always good (though many here object). However, when said critters are attacked by your archery, note that most of them have higher move and can close in with you to melee (making your archery useless, and you have no unarmed strike to oppose them). Or they take cover and easily wait out your buffs. Contrary to a monk/other meleer buffed and going melee you cannot force them to keep being a target at range. A fighter archer can overcome this since he is not as dependent on buffs as a cleric archer.

    Cleric DD's somewhere to allow it to ranged attack easier, or to get to a comrade to heal. Your entire statement about the monk's DD was to allow it to run away from tough encounters.

    Yep, and get also some others away. I only mentioned that using DD for such purposes is considered by some here leaving the others to their fate (that was the criticism heaped on me).

    Once the cleric is higher level, he can use a Rod of Quickening to get DP and RM off in the same round -- and by that time Bless is negligible.

    Once the monk is higher level, he can get 6 attacks per round all at divine power or AMF caster opponents to dust etc. This does not say anything about whether a level 10 cleric can take on CR 11 creatures all the time.

    So.. when exactly is it advantageous for the party to have a 50-100' radius cloud of smoke? And you do realize that saying you hide in the smoke is a horrible idea -- you will fail the Fort save eventually, guaranteed.

    Yes, eventually. After 24 rounds of holding the breath. Enough, I daresay. Casters holding the breath, though, will have trouble casting any spells.
    Now, when is it advantageous for a party to have a 50-100 radius cloud of smoke. Let me see...
    - AMBUSH by enemy archers, rogues, spellcasters
    - AMBUSHING enemies - the party rogue and caster and non-blindfighting fighters simply wait outside for those opponents staggering out eventually.
    These are just the broad uses.
    Ever watched SWAT tactics?
    You could, for instance, try to smoke out enemies hiding in wait somewhere (noticed beforehand by the scouting monk).

    *sigh* The only skill that, according to the rules, sets encounter distance, is spot.

    * sigh* It says it MAY set the ENCOUNTER distance. What the PHB skill descriptions say, however, is that you ALWAYS receive a spot and listen vs the opponents.

    Yes, you can hear someone, and start buffing -- but as soon as you do that, you're easy to hear too (you cant cast wands silently).

    Yes. Hence either move outside hearing range (every 10ft provides -1 to listen; intervening barriers even more).
    Or just use that surprise round and win initiative.
    It's always still an advantage.

    You then move into line of sight, and spot checks govern surprise. If the other guys see you as well, theres no surprise.

    Yes, IF they do that. However, within partial charge range, they have no chance to react, only with combat reflexes.

    Ignoring the fact that the rogue can craft his own acid -- You're seriously saying that the monk spending 150% of the rogue is not spending much more?

    The rogue cannot craft his own acid, I pointed that out already (alchemy checks need spellcasting ability).

    Is your Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus a Base Attack Bonus?

    Yes.

    Pot, Kettle. Kettle, Pot. How ya doin.

    The usual response of someone who is wrong and can't think of anything else to say.

    - Giacomo

  22. - Top - End - #952
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    People, I must ask: We've already disproven Giacomo in every way, and his inability to accept he is wrong has made us no longer take him seriously. So why do we bother responding to him? If he is a troll, like one person said, than shouldn't we just listen to the sign that says "DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS"?
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  23. - Top - End - #953
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    These are some of the longest posts I've seen anywhere, on any forum...

    I'm impressed and awed by your dedication.
    Good news everyone! I\'ve taught the toaster to feel love!

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious pun View Post
    People, I must ask: We've already disproven Giacomo in every way, and his inability to accept he is wrong has made us no longer take him seriously. So why do we bother responding to him? If he is a troll, like one person said, than shouldn't we just listen to the sign that says "DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS"?
    Obvious pun, I must ask - after reading all of my guide, subsequent rules quotes and explanations, why do you make such a statement?

    At the outset of this guide, people tossed around the following ideas and keep doing it (all disproven by the rules I quoted by now)
    - that there can never be a situation of characters owning partially charged wands (DMG p. 199 now is accepted by ALL that creating HIGHER level characters you can have them)
    - that grapple cannot be flurried (whereas the PHB monk flurry rules and the FAW prove it can)
    - that a monk has no chance at all at low levels in grapple, for instance CR 3 creatures vs level 3 monk (whereas I have shown that yes, he beats almost all of them, making grapple a viable tactics until around level 8. Heck, he can outgrapple a freakin' tiger! Or troll. At the respective CR for his level. And note that the Joker monk is NOT the best grappling monk. Ask lord_khaine for those awesome builds)
    - that a monk cannot enhance his fists (he can, with greater magic fang or greater magic weapon or holy sword)
    - that a rogue can sneak attack better due to self-made acid flasks (which the rules show he cannot produce himself and thus it costs more than the enlarge/heroism wand uses of the monk, plus sneak is more and more useless, the higher you rise in CR)
    - that spot and listen will never allow you to hear the opponent monsters before they notice you, thus making a monk's stealthy skillset unnecessary (PHB descriptions of the skills suggest otherwise)
    - that wbl will never allow a monk to pay for all his needed expendable items (whereas yes, I proved it several times with the simple intuition 15gp per 1st level, 90gp per 2nd level etc). He can enlarge himself 1,000 times until level 11 with his current wand budget. Or also, faerie fire, obscuring mist, mage armour, shield, protection from evil, bless weapon or whatever else is a good 1st level spell that you can come up with.
    - that the unarmed base damage will be overcome by other weapon base damages (whereas I showed that there is no core medium weapon that does 2d10 damage or can receive similar size boosts as that of the monk)
    - that the monk's move speed does not stack with other move boosts (it does with fly)
    - that the joker monk could never have enough skill points for all he needs (whereas I showed he does)
    - that the joker monk can be easily overcome by enemy spells, like grease (whereas I showed that simple total concealment from obscuring mist is enough to stop most such threats, and grease is overcome with a simple reflex, or failing that, 5ft move/jump).
    - that a fighter and barbarian can easily outgrapple a monk (whereas I showed that getting the improved grapple as bonus feat, the monk suffers no MAD from focusing only on STR, making the monk the most attractive grappler for players)
    - that a great protective item vs casters and sneak attacks, the eversmoking bottle, is allegedly not providing total concealment (it does, DMG item description) and its smoke does not prevent spellcasting (it does, DMG smoke description and PHB verbal component description)
    - that UMD is viable tactics for buffing, even when it's not at +19 (it is, since a lot of buffs can be cast way before combat; plus it can be boosted to +19 already at level 9 if necessary).
    - that at high levels, the monk is a failure at melee (whereas I showed that he receives most number of attacks with divine power and flurrry, plus 3 vs all others' 1 at highest bonus, plus highest base damage dice, plus being able to put 5 save-or-dies/sucks into only one of his strikes? For the record: stun, massive damage save, quivering palm, poison and a touch spell. Who needs full flurry attack?)
    - that a monk needs more items than others (whereas I showed that he has plenty of budget for his wands, while still having good saves, good AC, good damage and good general utility)
    - etc.

    So, obvious_pun, what do you think, after I proved all of these assumptions of monk haters are wrong, happens?
    They do not change their opinion. No. They keep repeating the same fallacies over and over again - including you. And that is what baffles me most.

    - Giacomo
    Last edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-06-14 at 09:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Your fighter has a DEX of 12. This means that the moment he uses the key grapple buff, enlarge, he’ll drop to a DEX of 10 and no longer have the improved grapple feat. So the joker monk will outgrapple him in the levels 1-8 easily that I portrayed best grapple levels for the joker monk . The monk class can get improved grapple as a bonus feat, so he does not need to have a high DEX.
    Now, a fighter with DEX 15 will then be able to outgrapple the joker monk. But is this a worthwhile approach for a 28pt-buy fighter?
    Assuming your above set of stats, the fighter would have STR 16, DEX 15 and would need to lower his CON or whatever other value by 4 points. A fighter already has some glaring weaknesses (lack of skill points and low will save), so specialising in grappling is quite tough for him.
    Then, suppose the monk is focused completely on grappling (aka the lord_khaine school). This can still have joker monk elements (using spell buffs from various sources), but likely will be less stealthy and resistant to magic.
    Say, a half-orc with STR 18 (+2 racial, so 20 overall). The fighter taking this route will need to spend 16 pts on STR and 8 points on DEX to even compete with the monk in grappling, meaning he is really MAD...he has only 4 points left – and with CON 12 would become a complete idiot of INT 6, WIS 8 and CHR 6. The monk player, meanwhile, could spend 12 points on whatever he likes.
    Finally, there is that thing for monks of higher unarmed damage output. The fighter, even enlarged with unarmed strike, has 1d4 (!!!!!). What kind of fighter player would go for such a damage output, when power attack, spiked chain proficiency and combat control is easily obtainable with his number of feats?
    The same holds true for a barbarian: yes, the can make good grapplers. But they make much, much better power attacks with TH-weapons, in particular at low levels. And a half-orc barbarian cannot even take improved grapple at 1st level, for lack of feats.
    Finally, there is the flurry of blows ability. A higher number of grapple attempts can make up for around 2-3 lower grapple check – which has been shown quite consistently from both sides of the argument in the thread above so far.

    I hope this answers your questions of why I consider a monk in general in core as the best grappler, and why the joker monk is also quite good at it. Sufficient, at least, to be able to neuter the large majority of CR 1-8 monsters AND npcs with his grappling (and opening them up this way for his rogue buddy’s sneak attacks).
    Missed that requirement on grapple, but easily circumvented. You'll note I spent point buy on things like Intelligence that wasn't really necessary. I can easily get that Dex where it needs to be, so that's irrelevant. I can drop Cha down too and even get the Dex to 15, so that he can take an Enlarge hit before 12th level. Consequently, your guide is incorrect until that point if you assume Enlarge, I had completely forgot that Improved Grapple requires 13 Dex, and if you Enlarge yourself you only have 14 Dex before level 12, meaning you'll lose the benefit of Improved Grapple. So really, all Enlarge does is give your Giamonk +1 to grapple. Keeping this in mind, I'll go ahead and take Int to 10 and Cha to 8, so he's exactly as good at UMDing as your Giamonk. He's human, so he's dropping a lot of points on UMD each level, but hey, Fighters don't need a LOT of skill points. Not to mention with the feats I have I can still take plenty of others, especially if we're assuming Core. Fighters are all about feats, after all.

    Sorry, I'm having trouble taking you seriously when you say my Fighter has MAD and your Monk does not. None of your stats were over 14, and you need to focus on Wisdom to function at all, which I do not. That's 6 points you're spending, whereas I spent 2 just to not have a Will penalty (if allowed to expand into non-core, specifically PHBII which gives the fighter the Weapon Supremacy chain and a lot of DMs tend to see as reasonable), a Fighter can dump this entirely and still be reasonable with his Will save due to the feat that lets him sub constitution for Wisdom).

    Making a Fighter capable of Grappling is REALLY easy. With a +1 Tome, he has the perfect dexterity for a Mithral Fullplate later on down the line, so the dex (or lack thereof) isn't really hurting him at all. And he needs to give up two feats. With all the feats he has, ESPECIALLY in a core game, that's nothing to him. He can still do what he needs to do (this build is liable to be a power attack-centric build instead of a tripping build, but honestly I could mess with the points a bit more and do both if needed.

    As far as the lack of damage, I think not. Armor Spikes and the like provide the fighter with options, as do spiked gauntlets. If he's really focusing on his grapple (which is perfectly reasonable for a fighter in a more humanoid enemy-based campaign), he can enchant those up and do pretty decent damage, not to mention power attack. Also remember that the purpose of grappling is locking someone down. If you can effectively grapple, you'll eventually kill them with your damage, you don't need to do it particularly fast because you're taking someone out of the battle so that they aren't a threat.

    Of course that goes counter to your thing about monks serving the tank role since ostensibly your fighter-type should be holding the line if they're taking that role in a party, but you're the one who's specifying grapple as a viable strategy. If you can explain that one too, that'd be great.

    So, no. That doesn't answer my question at all.
    Last edited by Behold_the_Void; 2008-06-01 at 02:29 PM.


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  26. - Top - End - #956
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Hmmm, since you get all so hyped about the partial wand thing, two suggestions of mine, to keep this thread dominated by this - imo- side issue:

    1) my guide should be understood currently as advice for players wishing to create characters of the respective levels. Then, in any case, p. 199 should hold, and the level 6 playtest is definitely valid.
    2) for ongoing level 1-20 characters careers , I completely subject myself to the decision of a poster whose rules knowledge so far I think is the biggest on these boards.

    Oh, Lord_Silvanos, I summon thee!
    What will it be? Can partially charged wands only be sold, and never bought by pcs? I bow to your answer.


    If his decision is yes - no partial charged wands buying -, then I'll post an alternative equipment list for a character able to buy only fully charged wands. You'll be surprised how little changes.

    - Giacomo
    I tried hinting at my opinion earlier. I am afraid I have been too busy to really get involved in this thread, but I have tried to catch up when time allowed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Silvanos View Post
    I have actually seen one for sale three places. City of Dis, City of Brass and in Sigil.
    I tried bargaining with the Imp and Quasit, respectively, but they insisted charging the price of an almost full wand and I am fairly certain they were backed by some higher power.
    In Sigil the Modron salesthing did not have bargaining as a function, so unfortunately I was unable to buy it at a reasonable price even though I was so lucky to find it in all these three cities.
    The RAW only says that you can get partially charged wands when creating characters above first level. Everything else is up to the DM.

    Now, since partially charged wands are sold it is only reasonable to assume that they can also be bought.
    As others have shown, the value of the stock that would reasonably allow you to buy the exact wand you demanded would far surpass all standard cities, save perhaps for the planar metropolises (see my quote above) and thus relying on specific charged wands in a class guide is IMHO not a good way to show the class' strength, as there is no direct RAW support and only Santa DMs will allow it under reasonable assumptions. (For a Monk in Sigil it would not be completely ridiculous though)

    Giacomo, you are not a troll, you just like sticking up for the defenseless ever-smoking downtrodden out-classed out-maneuvered class.
    All Yours Popcorn are belongs to me truly,
    LLS

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  27. - Top - End - #957
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurellien View Post
    I think that the hilarious thing about this is that an expert could Gonk better than a Gonk. It gets UMD as a class skill.
    Yep.

    Furthermore, this thread has established that gonks are ineffective
    (1) below level 12, because they can't get UMD to work reliably
    (2) in any running campaign, because they rely on getting "starting wealth" for each level, and if starting at level X, spend too much money to end up on actual WBL for level X+1
    (3) in any campaign where the DM does not allow the PCs to buy, at any time from magical item shoppes, a particular customized item that is unheard of anywhere outside gonk builds, i.e. the partially-charged wand
    (4) in any combat that does not involve the PCs surprising the enemies, and getting 2-4 rounds of buff time
    (5) against monsters of higher CR than the average party level, because the gonk will consistenyl fail to grapple those, and
    (6) when targeted by Dispel Magic

    However, in any campaign of level 12 or up, where the DM has magic item shoppes selling every custom thing the players want, hands out money above the WBL, announces all combats to the PCs a handful of rounds in advance, only uses lower-CR monsters, and doesn't use dispel against the PCs, the gonk will be a playable class. Wow, isn't that amazing!
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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  28. - Top - End - #958
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Readng this toic my brain goed bluh arghl
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  29. - Top - End - #959
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Hi...

    I often only read. Why? I dislike D&D and I invest my time reading for ideas for the system I use to DM my wife and friends. (While at it, let me bow before many posters here, especially Vorpal Tribble).

    I haven't played D&D at all for about 3 years, so I just want this to be explained to me after reading pages after pages. How is this ever plausible?

    I did the number crunching a bit. It turns out that, I either pre-buff just like wizards do, but don't have means to because my wealth doesn't let me, or I spend about 12 seconds buffing while other members of the party... err.. do more adventurer-like stuff.

    I just want to see a more satisfying example. So, I picked a random monster..

    A small pack of dire wolves approach to the party just before they decide to spend the night at the edge of a thick forest.

    Party consists of a skillmonkey rogue, giamonk, a badly-optimized evoker wizard, a druid who also undertakes healing also a barbarian who picked the route of tripping/reach. Randomize races. Level four. Party has just started a campaign about a necromancer cult kidnapping little kids from a nearby village so assume they'll mostly be prepared for fighting undead. After two more hours of more boring RP they deeply need hack'n'slash and the DM knows it. It's their first and last encounter this gaming session. There will be six wolves. Wolves are hungry and they will attack as soon as they can split one party member from others. Thinking party is level four and also a five-PC party, this encounter must be easy.

    Show me how it happens, one person from both sides from the discussion please.

    Years pass... They travel forests, rivers, mountains, arriving at the great desert of of Khaiden to strike at the heart of the cult. But there is a flock of hieracosphinxes, 7 to be precise, they don't look like they will speak first.

    Diplomacy attempts will be doomed to failure by heavy-handed DMing. The sphinxes don't want you there, you need to be there. Party is the same, but all of you are now level 10. 7 cr 5 creatures against 5 level 10 players are normally easy, but your mage is suboptimised, they rake and they're well-adapted to flying tactics. It's a bit tougher than usual challenge-rating guidelines suggest I guess. WWGD? (What would Giamonk do?)

    Note: If joining the fray like this feels rude, I'm sorry in advance. I just want to see cold, hard evidence. Numbers. Actions round by round in real scenarios, if Sir Giacomo doesn't mind. As I said before, I haven't played D&D system for three years and my number-crunching may be wrong, so these encounters may prove to be way too hard or way too easy. Sorry again if they are so.

  30. - Top - End - #960
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by cenghiz View Post
    It's a bit tougher than usual challenge-rating guidelines suggest I guess. WWGD? (What would Giamonk do?)
    Yeah, we've been over this several times already. The answer is any of the following:

    (1) the gonk spends several rounds trying to get his wands to work in order to buff himself, while the rest of the party finishes the actual combat;

    (2) the gonk attempts to grapple something, which is (a) not that good a strategy to begin with, and (b) not something the gonk is particularly good at . He either gets mauled by his intended target, or (unlikely) holds down his target while the rest of the pack mauls him;

    (3) the gonk does something idiotic with his party-nerfing smoke bottle, which causes all the monsters to laugh with derision, and the rest of the party to either evict him or kill him.


    #2 is his best option, and is a net positive contribution, albeit a small one. #1 does not contribute at all and might as well not be there; #3 is a strong net negative. In all cases, the gonk player will likely spend hours trying to convince the DM that his bizarre and outlandish interpretation of certain obscure rules is really officially correct.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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