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  1. - Top - End - #1291
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Hi Mojotech,

    it's probably too much to ask you to read 40 pages, but the guide would have sufficed. Anyhow, just to help you out quickly:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojotech View Post
    1a- Not Fiat, because all that happens if he rolls a 1 is he can't try to use that magic device again for 24 hours.
    I did not refer to UMD, but the ability of casters to cast higher level scrolls with a caster level check. A "1" always fails and causes mishap.

    1b- Incorrect. That's assuming the monk gets a flurry, and HITS with each blow- which is unlikely, since Flurry is a full-attack action, (Gotta stand toe to toe with whoever you're hitting) and is at 2/3rds BAB (15 at highest level? Yikes.) - Use Magic Device isn't reliable, and is a poor cover-up since it's not even a Monk ability, but a cleric ability.

    Use Magic device is a skill, not a cleric ability. At level 15 and 16 which most of the debate was referring to, the joker monk at +19 UMD (min.) automatically activates a wand of divine power (for which he also has enough cash).
    A full melee attack may be not happening that often, although it could happen more often with
    - an enlarged monk (10ft reach)
    - a monk able to freeze an opponent in place with stunning first with just one attack
    And, most comparisons were also done with full attack. Concerning ONE attack damage output only, likely the fighter with TH full power attack charger build may get the highest result; although a rogue doing the same and adding sneak on top of that probably even beats the barbarian.

    3- Incorrect. A good THF fighter will not only have majorly pumped his strength (If he rolls an 18, he's putting it there- and if it's point buy, he's putting it there anyway) through magic items and leveling bonuses, as well as invested heavily in pertinent combat feets like Improved Initiate, Combat Reflexes, etc. He's going to be doing wayyy more damage than just 42, especially on a charge. And that's for a very basic optimized fighter- not counting stronger builds like the spiked Chain Tripmonkey or the Ubercharger.

    Combat reflexes? You mean the monk bonus feat? And there's likely no maxed-STR fighter tripper around, since you need INT 13 for it (a bit MAD for my taste). Plus, rolling stats is not exactly a criterion to compare builds with.

    Honestly, if Sir Giacamo is finally willing to put his money where his mouth is, I'm pretty sure I could beat him with a basic wizard too. Excuse me while I prepare my spell list.

    You're free to be the next in line Choose a level, though I'd for now prefer not the level 17-20 area since with the advent of 9th level spells and massively more wbl and powerful items it is extremely complicated to play imo (and yes, imo the monk also has good strategies for those levels).
    And it's core rules btw (and the duel rules above likely apply).
    Anyhow, possibly the duel vs Emperor Tippy can take a while (although my current hunch is that the won initiative side wins, as should be expected for very high level builds).

    - Giacomo

  2. - Top - End - #1292
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    I did not refer to UMD, but the ability of casters to cast higher level scrolls with a caster level check. A "1" always fails and causes mishap.
    No. Natural 1 forces DC 5 wis check to avoid mishap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    And there's likely no maxed-STR fighter tripper around, since you need INT 13 for it (a bit MAD for my taste). Plus, rolling stats is not exactly a criterion to compare builds with.
    Huh? Joker representative talking about MAD? And besides it is high str, decent dex and con and some int, and every one of those, except str, can be raised to required level with magic items bought by money you saved by not using Divine Power wands.

  3. - Top - End - #1293
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Signmakerens View Post
    In my opinion, it's not the monk that benefits most from Use Magic Device, but rather casters with familiars. Now, bear with me on this.

    A. The most 'valuable' things to possess in DnD are, in no particular order: Spells, Feats, Actions.
    B. A familiar can have their intelligence boosted, through spell or magic item, such that they are able to cast spells.
    C. A familiar uses the highest ranks between it and its master for skills.
    D. Wizards in particular are known for their Intelligence, meaning that it is perfectly natural for them to have skill points to dump in to UMD.
    E. Improved Familiar grants access to familiar with positive charisma bonuses (A favorite of mine is Ice Mephit), and, of course, hands. For those picky DMs.
    F. For one feat, and minimal Wealth (Just for wands and maybe Cha and/or Int-boosters for your familiar. Wands, as supposedly shown by Giacomo (And myself, it would seem), are pretty cheap), casters get more Actions(In a matter of spells), and ultimately benefit more than a UMDing monk. Why? Because while a monk struggles (or not) to UMD a wand as a pre-battle buff or in-battle buff, possibly wasting actions, a wizard's familiar can do the same UMD action better (More ranks), while the wizard still has actions of their own. Hmm, it's a pity this is a core-only build discussion, there's a feat that allows access to familiars, which would tremendously help your monk's UMDing.


    Tell you what. Instead of being the Joker, and instead of "Beating Batman", as this is supposed to be a guide for playing monks, and you'll rarely ever have to FIGHT Batman, as he's on your side, how about...

    You play Robin, with Batgirl the Wizard Familiar UMDing you, allowing you to actually focus on being a monk. Fits much better, no? Robin was an acrobat who took his talents to the crimefighting scene, eventually becoming Nightwing, a soloist in his own right.
    A repost, as I'd like this post to be addressed by Gia before PvP begins. Because, unless he goes first, he has nil chance of victory. If he does go first, it's simply whether or not the wizard has the right spells for the job.

    Which he will. Eversmoking Bottle? Control Winds. Invisibility? True Seeing. Antimagic field? Run back and Wall of Force. Etc.

    Seriously, I thought Monk vs Caster was done to death. It's bad to be picking Wizard as a Monk's PvP partner because the Wizard's forte is spell versatility. He doesn't need as many spells as a Sorcerer, only enough to trounce one single enemy. And since he has so many kinds of spells to choose from, the monk will be hard-pressed to find a feasible angle of assault.
    "So Marbles, why do they call you Marbles?"

  4. - Top - End - #1294
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    No. Natural 1 forces DC 5 wis check to avoid mishap.
    True! Overlooked that...I'm getting tired...will sleep now. That reduces the chance of Emperor Tippy blasting himself accidently quite considerably

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    Huh? Joker representative talking about MAD? And besides it is high str, decent dex and con and some int, and every one of those, except str, can be raised to required level with magic items bought by money you saved by not using Divine Power wands.
    Yes, items you buy at levels- what? 7& above (remember DMG p.199 for 25% wbl going to single items)? And before that you can't do much... And as soon as these items are somehow lost or neutralised, you may lose whole feat trees. Plus, getting an INT item for a fighter is not really thaat good investment, I daresay (you get no added skill points for the lower levels, it does not add to your combat ability as the DEX/STR/CON boosters do etc.)

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    True! Overlooked that...I'm getting tired...will sleep now. That reduces the chance of Emperor Tippy blasting himself accidently quite considerably



    Yes, items you buy at levels- what? 7& above (remember DMG p.199 for 25% wbl going to single items)? And before that you can't do much... And as soon as these items are somehow lost or neutralised, you may lose whole feat trees. Plus, getting an INT item for a fighter is not really thaat good investment, I daresay (you get no added skill points for the lower levels, it does not add to your combat ability as the DEX/STR/CON boosters do etc.)

    - Giacomo
    Start:

    A. Add 5 points to Int
    B. Intermingle the rest between Str, Dex, Con however seen fit.
    C. Eventually get Stat-boosters.

    While the damage output may be a smidgen less, you can still easily trip.

    On the note of tripping, I found out the other day just how hard it was to trip a centaur. It doesn't help that they have a +12 bonus versus tripping just due to Centauriness.
    "So Marbles, why do they call you Marbles?"

  6. - Top - End - #1296
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Hi again,

    well, about that level 16 duel.

    1) Basically, I agree with you on that scroll use of 9th level thing- it should be an option for pc casters. However, the problem is that the rules for a mishap are not quite clear - it's DM fiat what kind of mishap occurs. Easily handable and highly entertaining possibly in a normal game, but in a PvP? So what happens when Emperor Tippy rolls a "1"?
    Nothing because I don't have to roll. My CL and Ability score are high enough that I don't have to UMD them.
    2) The sphere setting - sounds OK to me. What substance is the floor made of? Cut stone? Natural stone?
    Natural I suppose.
    3) How far is the initial distance of the two combatants?
    Say 30 feet.
    4) What can be done in the buff round? Probably it'll not be allowed to a) leave the starting/buffing square(s) and b) to affect the opponent (basically meaning nothing can be done that affects anything outside that square)
    Fine with me.
    5) Normally, leaving the plane of the sphere should constitute losing. But does that encompass the etheral plane as well? Say, with a blink effect active?
    The etheral plane is fine.
    6) Will possibly adjust the 16th level monk a bit; in part to make his strategies not so transparent, and also because of some minor mistakes that I detected (- it's certain that after the duel, there could be some major redo with the insights learned!)
    Whatever. It doesn't matter and won't change anything.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  7. - Top - End - #1297
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Yes, items you buy at levels- what? 7& above (remember DMG p.199 for 25% wbl going to single items)? And before that you can't do much... And as soon as these items are somehow lost or neutralised, you may lose whole feat trees. Plus, getting an INT item for a fighter is not really thaat good investment, I daresay (you get no added skill points for the lower levels, it does not add to your combat ability as the DEX/STR/CON boosters do etc.)

    - Giacomo
    As I said, in the spirit of your guide:

    Quote Originally Posted by myself
    can be raised to required level with magic items bought by money you saved by not using Divine Power wands.
    Now seriously:

    You can do it as Signmakerens said. Or if you have elite array to work with do the following: STR 15 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 13 WIS 10 CHA 8. You can take dwarf as a race to boost con, or you can simply switch dex and con and you have a decent fighter there. If you have point buy just put 16 in str and 8 in wis and you are good to go. Those 5 points you put in int might hurt but you'll survive.

    And for int boosting items: You don't really care for skills if you are fighter, everything can be dispelled and in Core you don't have much better things to put on your head (except maybe pancake ).

  8. - Top - End - #1298
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    And for int boosting items: You don't really care for skills if you are fighter, everything can be dispelled and in Core you don't have much better things to put on your head (except maybe pancake ).
    Mmm. Pancake.

    But yeah. There's not many items that will benefit you more. A Headband of intellect is only 4000 gold for the +2 model, which isn't that much. The only other helmet I could recommend is Helm of Teleportation, To give you some nice overland mobility.

  9. - Top - End - #1299
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    And there's likely no maxed-STR fighter tripper around, since you need INT 13 for it (a bit MAD for my taste). Plus, rolling stats is not exactly a criterion to compare builds with.
    Buy an item

  10. - Top - End - #1300
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    Buy an item
    You can't. You have to save money for wands.

  11. - Top - End - #1301
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD, UMD
    Use a Scroll

    If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

    This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD, UMD, more
    Try Again

    Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours.
    VS.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD, Activating Scrolls
    Activate the Spell

    Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.

    To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

    * The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
    * The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
    * The user must have the requisite ability score.

    If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.
    1) Using UMD to activate scrolls bypasses when a spell is not on your class list. It also allows you to emulate caster level.

    2) The penalty for UMD (wait 24 hours to try again) only matters if you roll a 1 AND you fail. Rolling a 1 is not automatic failure, no more than it is for any other skill.

    3) No matter what CL the scroll is, Tippy's mage will NEVER have to UMD it. That is because he can activate scrolls by the standard method, as he has the spells on his class list.

    4) On a side note, In order for a character to activate a scroll via UMD, he must have the requisite ability score (Int 16 for antimagic sphere, Int 19 for shapechange, wis 14 for divine power, etc).

    Thus, to cast a Scroll of antimagic field, you need 2 checks.
    1st one - activate scroll - DC 31.
    2nd one - Emulate int 16 - DC 31.

    Casting a scroll of shapechange?
    1st one - Activate scroll - DC 37.
    2nd one - Emulate ability of 19 - DC34.

    Hope this clarifies a few misconceptions on both sides, as well as underlined how difficult it can be to activate scrolls with less than an automatic success.
    Last edited by Talic; 2008-06-10 at 10:05 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #1302
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Actually, I have to have an Int of at least 19, the spell has to be on my spell list, and I have to have a CL of at least 17 to use any scroll without rolling. Thanks to the Orange Ioun Stone my CL is 17.

    So any scroll of a spell on the Wizard spell list can be used by me without a problem.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  13. - Top - End - #1303
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Anyhow, possibly the duel vs Emperor Tippy can take a while (although my current hunch is that the won initiative side wins, as should be expected for very high level builds).
    No. I've come up with a way so that Initiative doesn't matter. Then I hit you with a Power Word Stun. I auto penetrate your SR so you are guaranteed stunned for 2-8 rounds. Next I hit you with a Finger of Death. You make a Fort Save against a DC of 27 (minimum, my Int my be higher than 30). Since you have +11 on Fort Saves that means you have to roll a 16 or better. That is a 25% chance of success. Even if you make the save you loose 3d6+21 HP (minimum 24). You have 81 HP. 4 Fingers of Death (which you only have a .4% of making all 4 saves against) will deal a minimum of 96 HP damage. Since you are stunned you can't take any actions, such as drinking a healing potion. After 2 of my attacks, if you still aren't dead, I cast PW:S again to re stun you for 4d4 rounds. I then cast the next 2 FoD's.


    In the event that you manage to win initiative and UMD AMF as your first action then I will just cast Forcecage on myself and ready an action to hit you with PW:S as soon as you get within 20 feet of me. You are forced to lower your AMF to use either your Rod of Cancellation or Abundant Step or Ring of Blinking. Then my stun hits you and I do as above.


    If I really want too I have ways of killing you using no offensive spell but Magic Missile (and those come from wands).
    Last edited by Emperor Tippy; 2008-06-10 at 11:06 PM.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  14. - Top - End - #1304
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    First of two volunteer projects:

    Multiclass Overanalyzed Nonconclusive Knowledge Supported Assessment of Random Enemies: Battery Arranged Design.

    Let the grapple test begin.

    As of this stage, we have a monk and a cleric. Any other entries are welcome.

    Post builds, and we'll start up your threads.
    Last edited by Talic; 2008-06-10 at 11:40 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #1305
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Actually, what you're looking for:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

    * The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
    * The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
    * The user must have the requisite ability score.

    If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.
    So yes, Cindy has a 1 in 20 chance of failing to cast a level 9 spell off a scroll, and even less of getting a mishap.

    Also, possible scroll mishaps are provided, so very little DM fiat is needed. Just pick an effect randomly from the list.
    Last edited by Worira; 2008-06-11 at 12:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Worira View Post
    Actually, what you're looking for:



    So yes, Cindy has a 1 in 20 chance of failing to cast a level 9 spell off a scroll, and even less of getting a mishap.

    Also, possible scroll mishaps are provided, so very little DM fiat is needed. Just pick an effect randomly from the list.
    And again, incorrect. That only applies if her caster level is less than required, 17 for a 9th level scroll. He CL is 17 thanks to the Orange Ioun Stone.


    I have said this 3 times now, people could at least have the courtesy to read my posts before attempting to point out mistakes that aren't there.

    "If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check."
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  17. - Top - End - #1307
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Ah, true. Missed that you had an Orange Ioun stone.
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  18. - Top - End - #1308
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Correct. The very first bolded sentence in Worira's post shows that the remainder of the bolded text does not apply.

  19. - Top - End - #1309

    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    As for Chosen_of_Vecna's post, it's imo a very complicated way of saying: "Yes, Giacomo, you were right - the monk can if specialised in it do similar damage to the fighter in core, even a fighter specialised to deal damage. But the fighter is a weak class to start with, so it proves nothing."
    But, Chosen_of_Vecna, it does prove something. It proves that the monk is great at damage dealing in core. Which was the facet of what the monk class can do that was being discussed.
    No, in fact what I explicitly said is that you were wrong, even when specialized to do damage, he gives up more then a fighter to do that, and he still does worse damage then a fighter, who yes, does suck. So no, failing to compare to a fighter in damage, while also failing in AC, HP, and other actions is the very epitome of failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Although I have to admit that TH-Weapons and Power Attack make choosing the higher STR-race a factor (it does not help to get a higher damage output total than the monk, though)
    As I proved, yes it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Well, the half-orc monk specialised in melee hat 28pt-buy. There was no reason 32-pt buy was all of a sudden the new standard.
    32 PB is the new standard, and the old standard, and has been for some time, but yes, I'm comparing him against a 32PB monk using the strategy you suggested, because the 28PB monk couldn't even take the feat, since he had a 10 Dex, but you'll see this Monk in full soon enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    I dunno. Whatever your orc fighter has in terms of STR, the monk has as well, equating your advantage, since half your attacks make no use of power attack and TH STR bonus.
    Yes, since half my attacks do .5 Str bonus, and half my attacks do 1.5 Str bonus, and all the Monks attacks do Str bonus, that means that since both max Str completely, when Divine Power is active, the Monk gets just as much to hit and damage from Str as the fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    A +4 is not "slight". And even when charging without divine power being up, the orc fighter would likely get tripped, since the enhancement bonus is just +3 check difference (vs the +4 the feat provides). Plus, the reach means, the trip can be tried several times until your TH sword reaches the monk.
    If I charge you, you only get 1 attack of oppurtunity, someone needs to reread the AoO rules. And once again, I get to trip back at you, forcing you to drop your weapon anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Readied actions do not help you vs more reach. However, you could also use a spiked chain (lowering your damage output, though).
    No, they do, because I can move away, or move in and attack, or let you have your one attack, then laugh at you when I full attack back and kills you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Orc Monk, Joker Monk and fighter (all in core) can of course take on these challenges; in particular with a party. For instance, the marut with a dimensional anchor/lock and a grapple or any full attack next to it.
    I do not see where the problem is.
    Yes, if the Wizard stuns the enemies and let's the fighter full attack, then anyone can take him out, like a commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    OK. Does not matter, anyhow. Monk with one two-weapon fighting feat and a two-weapon fighter have the same number of melee attacks. Monk with 4 at highest BAB, fighter with 2 at highest.
    Which is of course a misleading statement, since the Fighters secondary BAB attacks are only one lower then the Monks in to hit. So the +4 over the Monk on his other two puts him ahead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    But the power attack does not apply to half the fighter's attacks (the off-hand attacks with the spike).
    But that doesn't matter. He gets more average damage power attacking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Hmmm. Even the orc monk will be likely ahead in the "who notices who first" game, so a buff in the surprise round is not that unlikely. That, plus the monk's MUCH higher move (the fighter will not even hear the monk buffing from 110ft away)
    And the 6 attacks/round with 40 damage each have been shown. There's no sense denying that.
    Ahh the PvP fallacy. Unfortunately, actually, the party rogues are the first to notice everyone else. Then the Fighter charges the Cleric/Wizard. While the Monk buffs. SO in round one, everyone acts except the Monk who is busy buffing. Then everyone acts with full knowledge of the monks presence since he just cast a spell. But since party on party conflicts are not too common, lets focus on the part where big monster and party see each other, rogue (And Monk) are hidden. Fighter charges, Monk buffs. So if a Party of four replaces the Fighter with a damage Monk, then the squishies get attacked by the big bad monster while the Monk buffs. Way to go.

    But of course all of this is based on your Schroedinger's Monk, because with 32 PB and maxed Str and Orc, you have pretty much no Int, and you get two skills. So no, you don't have any advantage in seeing the Fighter first. Try again later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    But how can you calculate that the fighter is in favour - you NEED to deduct from your attack to use power attack; AND your off-hand attack only gets half STR bonus damage and NO power attack damage. At best, the fighter might equate the monk in that situation; and be possibly ahead vs the unbuffed maxed orc monk.
    How can I calculate? It's simple, he has higher overall to hit, higher overall damage when power attacking down to your to hit.

    I understand the math is complex, but this is proven. Against any given AC you can calculate you average damage per full attack, including how often you miss. You can do this for not power attacking, you can do this for power attacking for 1, 2, ect. Then you take the one that produces the most damage per round, and you use that one against that AC. Here's the kicker though, the Fighters full round attack actually does more damage then the Monk with Divine Power, even when not power attacking at all.

    See what happened here is I plugged in the number of attacks, their dice, their additional damage, their to hit, and clarified which ones got 2 for 1, or 0 for 1 Power Attack. Then I had the calculator find out average damage per round for both myself and you against every AC from 10 to 80. It also calculates the average damage per round for all possible power attack values (0-15) and informs me which does the best damage. On those ACs where a Power attack of 0 is optimal (a small subset at the high end before I start requiring a 17 or higher to hit) the average damage of the fighter is only slightly higher then the Monk. However in the vast range below and at any range above, Power attack significantly increases damage over that of the Monk. This is math Gia. You can't deny Math. Just accept that the best Maxed damage Monk in Core can't keep up with a Core Fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    1) True, you even admitted it above.
    ?
    You admitted in your post that the fighter does slightly more damage on his single attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    2) True as full calculations have proven.
    Nope.
    Yep. You don't just get to claim math doesn't work. I have mathmatically calculate the average damage of each character, you have put your fingers in your ears and sung "6d8 6d8 6d8 la la la I can't hear you 6d8." over and over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    3) Okay, you can manage as many attacks, or theoretically more of them, but each one represents a much greater investment, that you can not really make.
    Why not? Cost of just one feat.
    Cost of one feat to and a -2 penalty to all your attacks and a higher dex, to match me in attacks, to get better more you would need to increase your Dex even further, likely giving up Str, and spend even more feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    4) No, because he can't afford those things, you are so cute though.
    I actually started to like you long ago... And yes, he can afford ALL those things.
    No he can't, cost of Greater Spell Storing Ring 50,000 gp, cost of 4 level 4 pearls of power for Divine Power each encounter: 64,000gp, cost of Pearls of Power for GMForW and enalrge 4 day: 13,000gp. Cost of +6 Wis and +6 Dex and +6 Con: 108,000gp. Cost of boots of Speed: 12,000gp. Monk's Belt: 13,000gp. Total Cost: 260,000gp. WBL at level 15: 200,000gp.

    Can you afford it? No!

    But thanks anyway for the condescension that has always been a feature of your posts. It's even funnier because you always condescend to those that are smarter then you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    5) You are joking right? Dex 10 Wis 14 Monks don't have a higher touch AC then a 22 Dex Fighter. But this might change, we'll see when I present your monk build.
    My monk build? You mean yours? Dunno.
    Anyhow, the monk AC bonus (note the monk's belt) will mean the touch AC is the same as the as 22. And of course once you use full wbl, there is nothing to stop the monk from having +6 item in DEX as well.
    No, I mean the 32 PB Monk that uses the strategy you recommend, as opposed to the 28 PB you recomend. Because guess what. There are no Monk builds anywhere in this thread that are Orcs. You just talk about how they could be Orcs. Unless of course you went back and edited it in without ever mentioning it to anyone. So anyway, I built an Orc Monk specced for Divine Power damage using WBL, he does less damage then the Fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    6) Please do. I went with one that will provide me with Enlarge four times a day every day from level 6 with no additional costs. But you can feel free to throw money down a drain by paying 3000gp per enlarge that lasts only a few days if that.
    ? Permanency only lasting a few days? And note if you use som sort of enlarge item, you'll also need to buff for a standard action. There goes that "but you buff with divine power" advantage.
    Haha. Yes, I'm sure the spell Dispel Magic doesn't exist in the game. I'm sure no one will ever see a Monk cast Divine Power, and then think to dispel him, and then nearly always succeed on his CL Permanency, or his CL 11 Enlarge Person. (And if either one of those two checks fails, then you just wasted 3000gp.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    7) Too bad your HP still matters when you face the Colossal Centipede and his rider. And the Fire Giants that can kill you in one round, and the Marut, and well, all you enemies. But yes, since I can easily reach the Monk by simply charging him before he casts Divine Power, or withstanding the trip as I do more then 50% of the time, or by readying an action on his approach, or by using my cross class tumble ranks.
    Whereas your fighter build was a shining HP monster? Just get that CON enhancer for him as well. And ture, without a party for backup, the SPECIALISED orc monk just like your SPECIALISED orc fighter will have problems. The joker monk? Not so much.
    Oh right, except he can't afford it, because as we've established, when your solution to every single problem from BAB to number of attacks to reliance on four stats is to buy an item for it, then yeah, you get short pretty quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    8) Oh, a "Customized item" that follows the rules set out for combing slots that are not found in the "custom item guidelines" but instead in the main text? Why is Emerald Streaks casting of a single spell at CL 20 once a day at level 10 excellent play but following the rules of combining items (by increasing the cost) evil munchkinnery Mr Partially Charged Wands?
    Soo...someone else in a non-core thread somewhere else used some kind of item and this makes you think it's OK to use now in a core only comparison (again: look up DMG p. 199 for partially charged wands)? Oh well...
    You yourself have admitted that partially charged wands can't be bought of whatever you want in stores.

    But yes, when you advocate a certain style of play, and talk about how good it is, and how that item should be expected to be allowed, you do in fact become responsible for defending your hypocrisy when you now deride me for combing items into the same slot using the "combining items" rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    You cannot compare yourself to a 32PB monk, since none was posted.
    Nor was a 28 PB monk presented, just a number: I do X damage. That's all. No explanation of how you get that, no build. Just a statement. Some items. A Claim to limitless Divine Power. And a suggestion to max Str/Dex/Con/Wis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    But anyhow, you're completely wrong imo.
    Luckily, math doesn't care about your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Suggestion: we stop to discuss this (feel free to crunch numbers again, though). Apparently we cannot convince each other.
    No, nothing will ever convince you, even Mathematical proof. But that doesn't really matter, because no one expects you to ever actually be honest or not lie and condescend or become smarter, we just want to make sure that you don't trick and deceive others with your "guide" and so we prove you wrong over and over on every issue so that others can see your mistakes. In fact, when he came in to the last Monk discussion, Signmakers was very much in the middle, and felt that we were being unfair to you, since then he has become one of your primary detractors, so clearly we are doing a good job.
    Last edited by Chosen_of_Vecna; 2008-06-11 at 09:25 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #1310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Hi Mojotech,

    it's probably too much to ask you to read 40 pages, but the guide would have sufficed. Anyhow, just to help you out quickly:

    I did not refer to UMD, but the ability of casters to cast higher level scrolls with a caster level check. A "1" always fails and causes mishap.

    Use Magic device is a skill, not a cleric ability.
    - an enlarged monk (10ft reach)
    - a monk able to freeze an opponent in place with stunning first with just one attack

    Combat reflexes? You mean the monk bonus feat?

    You're free to be the next in line Choose a level.

    Giacomo
    Thank you for assuming I haven't- and can't- read the guide or your thread, it totally couldn't be that I simply wasn't convinced... /sarcasm

    And a natural 1/20 is a mere 5% chance of it happening. You keep talking about it like it's a certainty, which is wierd especially given your UMD monk's chances are much, much lower.

    I'm talking about Divine Power as a cleric ability, not UMD.

    ... Assuming your opponent isn't also enlarged, or you don't get dispelled, or they don't make the stunning fist save or...

    Combat Reflexes is also a fighter bonus feat, and they get a LOT more bonus feats than a monk. In both range of possible feats and number. A monk can't out-feat a fighter, same as he can't out-magic a wizard.

    Level 10.


    Here are the rules I'll agree to-
    1- Core rules,Monster Manual, PHB, DMG. 32-point-buy.
    2- Our battlefield will be inside a smooth hollow sphere 500 feet across in the otherwise infinite expanses of the "Plane of unworked stone". Gravity is subjective- any inside surface is "down", while towards the center of the sphere is "up". Competitors will start by being summoned to opposite ends of the sphere from the prime material plain. 1 round will be given for buffing. During this round, both fighters cannot move from their square, and are immune to damage. Hours/level buffs will be allowed to be cast beforehand.
    3- Leaving the plane outright is a loss, except the use of temporary and/or portable sub-planes such as bags of holding and portable holes are fine. So are short trips, like teleport and dimension door and Etherealness.
    4- Time passes normally on this plane, and the two competitors need to eat, sleep, breathe and drink as normal. (But not use the bathroom.)
    5- No Custom Magic Items. Both fighters get 50,000 gold. No item may exceed 12,500 in cost. One-use items are at 5x cost. Both fighters will be given 10,000 EXP for use in spells and magic items.
    6- No Polymorph.
    7- In Character, No information will be known about the enemy except Name (Batman, Joker) and one yes/no question. This is to keep Schroedinger's character sheets to a minimum. Character sheets will be submitted to our DM when the time comes to play. (The time will be decided later, but will be after Tippy beats Giacamo.)
    8- Our DM will be a third party, who will handle dice rolls and such. I nominate Solo, if he's willing.

    Do those sound good?

  21. - Top - End - #1311
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Well, Signmakerens first...

    Quote Originally Posted by Signmakerens View Post
    A repost, as I'd like this post to be addressed by Gia before PvP begins.
    OK, on the issue of familiars as wand wielders.
    Yes, that's possible (they need to have some hand-like appendix and be able to speak, so improved familiar feat should be taken, or, if the DM is nice, a raven).
    Now, what does this entail, though? You basically have a more and more influential npc a the side of the pc caster. This is basicaly the same kind of problem that makes most DMs shy away from allowing the leadership feat (essentially, equating a wand wielder also for the cost of a feat).
    In OOTS it was once made fun of that V never really made use of his familiar excepting the static boosts. And this is how most players handle it.
    Note also that a familiar is fairly fragile. The more it exposes itself with wand use, say, the more likley it can perish and cause XP loss to the spell user.

    Because, unless he goes first, he has nil chance of victory. If he does go first, it's simply whether or not the wizard has the right spells for the job.

    And this is the whole thing about it, isn't it? A PvP situation is THE IDEAL situation for a high-level wizard, since he is fully loaded of spells, and can perpare nicely for the setting that awaits him (in this case he even knows what kind of opponent he is up to).
    Still, I do not think that it is an auto-win. Imo it should be closer to a 50% winning chance (in line with my belief in balance of core 3.5).

    Which he will. Eversmoking Bottle? Control Winds.

    Divine spell. And limited wish is quite expensive.

    Invisibility? True Seeing.

    Only up to 120ft. And no use vs hide.

    Antimagic field? Run back and Wall of Force. Etc.

    Run? AoO, tripping the fleeing wizard. But I admit, AMF is highly tricky and situational.

    Seriously, I thought Monk vs Caster was done to death. It's bad to be picking Wizard as a Monk's PvP partner because the Wizard's forte is spell versatility. He doesn't need as many spells as a Sorcerer, only enough to trounce one single enemy. And since he has so many kinds of spells to choose from, the monk will be hard-pressed to find a feasible angle of assault.

    Hard-pressed, yes. But without hope? We'll see.

    @Emperor Tippy:
    30ft from each other appears a bit close (why not 25ft?), will think on that....and also whether we have overlooked anything. Could take a bit time, since apart from the level 6 playtest, the grappling contest started.
    Is Talic going to be the ref?
    Apart from that, the CL trick is OK (no mishap risk).

    @Chosen_of_Vecna
    I give up hope on you. My previous post remains valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chosen_of_Vecna View Post
    But that doesn't really matter, because no one expects you to ever actually be honest or not lie and condescend or become smarter, we just want to make sure that you don't trick and deceive others with your "guide" and so we prove you wrong over and over on every issue so that others can see your mistakes.
    I kindly ask you not to call me a liar. I'll be at times wrong or overlook something (cf. the scroll mishap thing), but I do not intentionally bend the truth (how could I even do that, when the rules are mostly quite clear, in the other cases can be discussed and in best cases agreed on). Thank you.

    - Giacomo

  22. - Top - End - #1312
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    A PvP situation is THE IDEAL situation for a high-level wizard, since he is fully loaded of spells
    It should also be ideal for high level monk. He's full of Stunning Fists, HP, Quivering Palm, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    and can perpare nicely for the setting that awaits him (in this case he even knows what kind of opponent he is up to).
    Monk also knows who he's up against. You even have tactics of your opponent.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    @Giacomo: Sorry about Control Winds. However, Gust of Wind works just as fine. Guess what level that is?

    Also, you assume that there is somewhere for said monk to hide. A monk, last I checked, does NOT have Hide in Plain Sight. There is NOT always a guarantee to be sneaky. You might be strolling down a basic dungeon path. Baddies pop around the corner, OH SHOOT, HIDE BEHIND THE SCRATCH IN THE WALL.

    Dramatization, but you get my point.

    50% success is nowhere near accurate. If the caster goes first, you WILL lose, due to attrition if anything. The caster simply has more resources. If the caster goes second, it's all a matter of outwitting the monk with defensive casting.

    Frankly, that isn't hard to do. Again, spell versatility trumps monk's item/feat versatility.
    "So Marbles, why do they call you Marbles?"

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Well, to be fair Gust of Wind likely isn't going to be memorized by a wizard unless they know what they'll be dealing with, since it's an Evocation and not terribly useful when compared to other spells of it's level. That being said, it's not like the wizard doesn't have other options. The eversmoking bottle takes a round to spread out, so they can always just move out of the range.


    Incredibly GAR avatar by Ninja_Chocobo.

  25. - Top - End - #1315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Signmakerens View Post
    @Giacomo: Sorry about Control Winds. However, Gust of Wind works just as fine. Guess what level that is?
    It only lasts 1 round and affects a smaller area than the smoke covers. Once the gust of wind is over, the smoke resumes.

    Also, you assume that there is somewhere for said monk to hide. A monk, last I checked, does NOT have Hide in Plain Sight. There is NOT always a guarantee to be sneaky. You might be strolling down a basic dungeon path. Baddies pop around the corner, OH SHOOT, HIDE BEHIND THE SCRATCH IN THE WALL.

    Yep, that is exactly what happens. Once it's your turn and there is an opportunity to hide, you can (it's a move action, so you move, and then hide around the corner).
    With darkness around you (also per the spell) you could get the concealment necessary to hide.

    Dramatization, but you get my point.

    I do! I hope you also get mine.

    50% success is nowhere near accurate. If the caster goes first, you WILL lose, due to attrition if anything. The caster simply has more resources. If the caster goes second, it's all a matter of outwitting the monk with defensive casting.

    We'll see.

    Frankly, that isn't hard to do. Again, spell versatility trumps monk's item/feat versatility.

    Yep, but it all is based on one source: magic.

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    @Emperor Tippy:
    30ft from each other appears a bit close (why not 25ft?), will think on that....and also whether we have overlooked anything. Could take a bit time, since apart from the level 6 playtest, the grappling contest started.
    Is Talic going to be the ref?
    Apart from that, the CL trick is OK (no mishap risk).
    It's 30 feet because it has to be higher than 10 feet (I am not starting within range of your AMF) and I figured that it was close enough for both of us to be able to attack the other in the first round.

    As for waiting, no. This match will literally take less than 30 minutes. I can win, without 9th level scrolls, in under 10 rounds. Of which you will spend at least 2 on your back stunned. I will act first because if I don't win Initiative then my contingent DD goes off and takes me (and my Phantom Steed) out of your range. You act. My steed uses a double move action to get within 60 feet of you, I cast Power Word: Stun and you are stunned for 2-8 rounds. Next round (after you have been stunned for 1 round) I cast Finger of Death. You have a 25% chance of making your save, if you do you loose 24-39 HP. Next round (after you have been stunned for 2 rounds) I cast Power Word: Stun. You are stunned for 2-16 rounds (depending on how much damage the first FoD did). Next round (after being stunned for 3 rounds) I cast Finger of Death. You have a 25% chance of making your save, if you do you loose 24-39 HP. Next round (after you have been stunned for 4 rounds) I cast Power Word: Stun. You are stunned for 4-16 rounds. Next round (after being stunned for 5 rounds) I cast Finger of Death. You have a 25% chance of making your save, if you do you loose 24-39 HP. Next round (after being stunned for 6 rounds) I cast Finger of Death. You have a 25% chance of making your save, if you do you loose 24-39 HP.

    With 9th level scrolls allowed its even simpler.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
    Spoiler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    I cast Finger of Death.
    Note that he can UMD Death Ward.

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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Yep, that is exactly what happens. Once it's your turn and there is an opportunity to hide, you can (it's a move action, so you move, and then hide around the corner).
    With darkness around you (also per the spell) you could get the concealment necessary to hide.
    - Giacomo
    Again. You assume there is a place to hide.
    I will concede Darkness though as a possibility. However, you should know how Light/Darkness spells work. Of course, the odds of a caster possessing a Light spell on hand are significantly low, but then there's always, I don't know, indiscriminate blasting of shaded area from the safety of a flight-based spell.

    On the subject of familiars: Familiars are great, when chosen correctly. It is also nifty that a good portion of the familiars with hands also possess other nifty abilities! Ice Mephit is my personal favorite, but I do believe there's also a devil that fits the bill. Ice Mephit as an example:

    1. DR 5/magic. For a familiar with HP half of the caster's this is quite useful.
    2. Breath Weapon. -4 to AC and -2 to Attack rolls is, again, quite useful.
    3. Darkvision.
    4. Immunity to Cold. This is somewhat of an issue, because this is coupled with Vulnerability to Fire. I'm willing to take the risk, however, and possibly outfit my favorite familiar with a Ring of Fire Resistance.
    5. Flight. Please, do try and smash my familiar with a greatsword. See where it gets you.
    6. A Charisma score of 15. This, combined with a Circlet of Persuasion, and the Wizard's ranks in UMD, grant a MINIMUM UMD of +15. For a backup's purposes, this is sufficient, but note that this is 7th level, the bare minimum to get an Ice Mephit. By 10th level, you'll only need a 2 or higher. Outfit your Mephit with partially-charged wands (Hey, your own concept! Of course, I intend to buy the full 50-charge package), and you've got Batgirl.

    PLEASE, Stick to being Robin, and not the Joker. You will, as the Joker usually does, FAIL. You can even Perform (Wordplay)!
    "So Marbles, why do they call you Marbles?"

  30. - Top - End - #1320
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    Default Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojotech View Post
    Do those sound good?
    Yep, except
    - partially charged wands are OK as agreed before (since this is in DMG p. 199 for PCs created above 1st level and this is not an ongoing campaign). They will have 1/5th their partial charges, though (similar to the x5 cost of scrolls).
    - 28 pt buy, I guess anything higher will make monk doubters feel only reinforced in their MAD illusion.
    - no yes/no question. Wizard vs monk at level 10 should be enough. And please no prestige classes and multi-classing, or I use the assassin prc class from level 6 and nothing in terms of base class relative power is really demonstrated.
    - the 10.000 X.P. rule sounds like no advantage for the monk, but a big one for the wizard; sounds you wish to get more items through item creation feats. Hmmm. OK, accepted (although in regular play, casters will not always have the opportunity to spend x days or even weeks/months to create items in peace, and those periods where casters then are behind in XP and level do occur).
    - Starting 500ft from each other AND a buff round? So you wish to start the game essentially with several rounds of buffing? Hmmm. Highly unusual, likely never ever happening in actual gameplay (it's a -50 to spot/listen), and much frowned upon here when it concerned the monk using UMD to even buff 2 rounds. What about the 30ft distance that Emperor Tippy suggested?

    - Giacomo

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