Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Sir Giacomo]

UMD is to Monk as Candle is to Commoner.
That was my point.

I see. So, a monk using a 1st level spell wand is exactly as game-breaking/problematic as a commoner using a 9th level spell with odd spell interpretations? Hmmm. Does this sound odd to anyone else?

Yes, I am biased. I believe this is an open and shut case, as has been mentioned. This does not stop me from wanting a more structured form of argumentation, however.

To be applauded. The structured form of argumentation starts in the guide. And you wish to discuss UMD, despite it being the main issue already for 6 pages. Care to bring up something else?

And I believe, based on your posts, you accept the half truths about your original guide.

Actually, that is what I try to oppose rectify - half truths like "ah, his monk uses leadership" or "you can only UMD wands with 100% at level 20", "most CR 3 creatures will outgrapple you". And hope at some point or another some constructive discussion starts.

Or you would not post them. However, this line provides nothing to the point to be had - and that is the mechanical analysis upon which the argument should be presented, and not the argument itself.

?

For the failure rate:
Show how. Exactly. Don't just say it can be. Exact builds, data, etc.
On everything. Everything needs to be directly supported. Others have shown their's.

Er...am I in the wrong thread? Hint: page 1: the guide.

On the obscuring mist:
The difference between 75% chance from a Monk and 95% chance from a Rogue is VERY significant. As is in comparison to all actions. Also, obscuring mist is a singular example, I would like to see more than that. We now have obscuring mist on the list - which is prime in it's own situational set up. However, more information is required than singular examples.

Yes, it is very significant. In that the rogue has a huge problem in the obscuring mist: his sneak attacks are blocked. So the mist and concealment is a monk blind-fight tactics, but never a rogue tactics.

- Giacomo

[horseboy]

Well, you might say, then I'll simply charge the Joker with a greatsword and power attack! Again, you disregard the monk's class ability. Thanks to his combat reflexes, he'll grapple you before you even reach him. And while his attack bonus (as you rightfully point out) is lower, he only needs to hit the touch AC, making your expensive armour useless.

Oh, Oh, Oh I get to do a Morbo!
COMBAT REFLEXES DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!
Charging doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity for you to use combat reflexes. You need Hold the Line, a non-core feat. Giamonk would run away.

It depends...the joker always DID survive and come back. How alike the monk
Plus, in the last appearance I know of (dark knight returns) the Joker has the last laugh...

Well, according to Batman Beyond Wayne does wind up killing the Joker for reals. Of course he has a spawn of imitators....

Also, where you have the gauntlets of ogre power for only one level, I'd go ahead and just get the gloves of dex then, that way you don't sell it for half and loose some of your WBL. You need all you can get.

[Talic]

Er...where in my post did I do that? The logicninja's guide is great, but somehow led many posters around here to develop some strange notions about the game; what is possible, and what not, and above all, that wizards are way more powerful than anyone else. And this monk's can help to remedy that.

Wrong. Your guide is loaded with comments on how well a monk can beat casters. Very little is devoted to showing how the monk helps the party. In fact, most of it is showing how the party helps the monk, to beat casters. I understand if you're not 100% on it, it is 7 pages back. Feel free to review it and get back to me.

Where in that guide did I say anything about PvP? There are npc casters, you know. This monk CAN be taken with some minor modifications to be a good pvp duel character, in particular against casters.

The majority of you OP is designed around the concept of "Monk vs caster". That is not "party contribution". That's "monk > caster".

In what you write here and in the following below you clearly signal that you 1) did not read my guide completely and 2) what you read you did with a preset idea of how I allegedly argue and what I allegedly wish to do.

Friendly reminder, stating that someone obviously didn't read what you wrote is a violation of board policies if I'm not mistaken. There's a forum rules thread at the top of the section that can give the specifics, I believe.

Also, I'm not responding to what you "allegedly" said. I'm responding to Post 1 of this thread. It's a while back there, again, feel free to refresh yourself on it, as the thread has seemingly devolved into grappling discussion for some time.

No, actually you and other posters often post with a notion of "biased class wars." You do challenges to ridicule monks and then refuse to give up your rules perceptions even when the evidence is waved in front of you.
THIS guide is a DEFENSE, not an ATTACK on other classes. It should be fairly obvious.

Accusation? Have I posted with any statements lauding one class over another here? No, I've debated your specific posts here. Nothing else. It'll help if you check previous arguments at the door, and debate my current posts, rather than uncited phantom posts that may or may not say anything.

WHAT? You reduce the viability of the UMD concept to the little detail that at level 20 (where hardly anyone ever ventures) one (1!) spell can no longer be used by a monk? Bearing in mind that 1) game assumes by that level other methods to get larger and 2) even if morph is frowned upon this includes other things. This is ridiculous to the extreme.

Actually, that was a mild side note, rather than the main argument.

And the monk with a level 20 character wbl budget can use rightuous might (as the barbarian). And read again what I wrote about when to use grappling tactics until what level and when not.

Again, that's a mild side note, rather than the main thrust. This isn't class vs class, again. That was a mild comment on how the monk's specific class features prevent the use of the spell, and showing mild amusement at how you left "Person" off all your instances of "Enlarge Person".

Yep. I see all the fighter players happily giving back their magic weapons (they were created by spellcasters, after all) and get reduced to nothing by an allip.

Example of the use of WBL to shore up a weakness. The post this replied to was taken out of context. As actions are at a premium in combat, when the wizard uses a spell to buff the monk, the wizard is using his combat currency to help another class. The monk then does what he does. When the monk attacks, he's overcoming the challenge, with the wizard's assistance. The wizard is showing that he can help another class. Outside of combat and inside of combat are two totally different worlds. Outside, time is less regimented, and you have actions. In the typical combat, you have 3-5 standard actions to spend. The wizard must choose to do something with those actions, whether it's block LOS, grease an enemy, magic missile, web, or what. When he spends that action HELPING the monk, he isn't doing anything else. If he is giving up his ability to do nothing but assist the monk in doing his task, it's fair to say that the wizard is showing usefulness to the party, if that buff is effective. The monk isn't showing any more usefulness than anyone else, if that same spell could be applied to another class just as well. Let's say Barbarian. 18 str, 22 rage, 24 enlarge for a +14 total grapple mod, and with reach, won't provoke from most enemies. Let's say fighter. 18 str,+2 enlarge, Improved grapple, for a total of +5 str +3 BAB +4 Size +4 Improved grapple or +16. Both classes can do it just as well, if not better, with little effort. 18 str is something good for both classes anyway. Now, in a perfect world, we'd have enough for everyone, but when the wizard has the choice between the 18str barbarian and the 14 str monk for that enlarge... Well, it doesn't show that the monk is bad. Just that the other class is better at that specific task. In any case, regardless of who that buff's on, the character's in the double digits anyway (though the fighter was already there, with +11 pre-boost). , so the wizard is the one aspect of that that can't change. Some classes are just more proficient at grappling. In this instance? The fighter can do that task best. Barbarian is second. Monk is third. The fighter has the best chance of doin' the dance without the buff tho. 18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 8 cha used for both builds. 32 point build.

And the non-caster class is providing the caster class with the permanent protection, that they, with their only limited duration magic, cannot emulate (only at much, much higher levels, where they will still need to have the non-caster abilities around in case their magic is countered/foiled in one of the many, many ways that I described in the guide. Read it, you'll be surprised.

Again, I read it fully. I just don't agree with it. Again, I'd appreciate it if you didn't levy that accusation. I find it personally insulting, to be honest. Non-caster classes need melee backup a good portion of the time. That doesn't explain why that melee backup should be the monk. The wizard is at his best when he makes the most out of what's available, whether its terrain, party members, or whatnot. The monk is at his best when the wizard's enhancing him. The difference is the wizard is proactively changing something. The monk is waiting to be changed before he does anything.

But read the guide's section on the typical monk myth - you just brought up one again.

I did. Again. I did. My request on this has already been made. I'll leave it at that.

Which proves you have not read the guide. Your numbers may be correct, but UMD can be reached for the critical +19 level much earlier.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but you're starting to. With an 18 cha, full level boosts into Cha, and skill focus, you'll get +19 two levels earlier. At level 19. If you want the MW Skill item? Note, that's for craft skills, and other items not listed are by DM approval, since they're not in core.

With a +6 Cha Item, it drops it lower. To level 14. That's about as low as you'll get, but you'll need a 36k item, whose only purpose is to make your disposable items more useful. It will succeed at that. Now you can spend round 1 of combats buffing yourself, while everyone else DOES something.

Yes, in your dreams desperately clinging to fantasy UMD scenarios to avoid admitting that you are wrong.

No, at some point I feel it's not worth the assets invested for the gain you receive. From what I've listed, the assets expended are:
50% of a 32 point buy's stats.
1 feat (18.3% of feats)
1/6 of the character's class based skill points.
2/3 of attribute boosts up to level 14
36,000 gp

All for the ability to reliably use wands.

Now, let's take a rogue, 14 Cha. (1/6 of class based skill points)
Max ranks in UMD (1/8 of class granted skill points)
1 feat (18.3% of feats)
No Attribute boosts
4,000 gp on a +2 cloak of cha

Achieves +19 UMD at level 10.
With more stats for good dex, good sneak attack, good hide abilities, attribute boosts, WBL for other things, etc.

Less investment, lower level, equal return. This is why it's good. Except the rogue will go for a wand of Reduce person, for extra dex, size to AC, and the like.

Read in the guide on what to do with UMD if you do not wish to cast in combat.

Sigh. I did. It's just rubbish information, that's all.

Hence why the Joker has so many other class abilities that help him do his job.

Which is? I still fail to see anything that other classes can't do better.

Well, for the touch to trigger it, the target must be legal. Most touch spells are necromantic or enchantment, so you can touch liveless things like water, air, doors, traps etc. to your heart's content.

Wrong. Illegal targets fizzle spells. Reread section on "holding a charge". It doesn't mention an illegal target. Any touch will trigger it. Yeah.

Yes, can't have all...but notice how until mid-high levels, most of the time the Joker monk will NOT use wands IN combat?

Instead, relying on the wizard to make sure he stays viable, rather than make another party member or area of the battlefield control.

Also, out of combat, many of a monk's key skills rely on free hands.

Which?

I'll refer you to the SRD, Monk, skill list, look through several of the Dex and Str based skills. Many do require hands. Not all, certainly, but then, I never claimed that, did I?

Where is that strange idea from? Not the core rules. You simply think it's wrong that the monk makes so good use out of items? But it's in the rules. So no need to whine about it.

That's not whining. Please do not use derogotory terms when referencing me. I find it offensive. I find it odd that the monk requires those expendable items to function, and without them, is behind in many of his strategies. I'm stating that your idea for use of WBL, innovative as it is, is impractical, and not worth the expenditure of assets and resources to make it viable.

And in a world without items, the monk would still have a place due to his many abilities - not as much in combat, but for tasks involving stealth and getting to places where other non-casters cannot (dim door, etheralness, highest jump skill if maxed).

Stealth, the rogue outperforms. The monk has dim door. That's it. It doesn't get the party anywhere though. It's a "me only" ability... Which is of limited use to the party, beyond perhaps lowering a rope down afterwards... Which could have been taken care of with less resource loss if the wizard levitated the rogue or other class. Again, teamwork is key.

And in a world without magic, the monk would be able to use grappling again, since so many fantasy creatuers like incorporal undead and huge outsiders are no longer there.

Though animals and vermin scale for their HD faster than the monk keeps up too.

Well, let me tell you about synergy. If a party batman casts enlarge on the joker, he will defeat (as I showed answering Reel on, Love's post) all monsters up to CR 3, with no save. This is true synergy in a group. Both classes are needed to achieve it. Where is this strange attitude coming from that everyone should be grateful to batman, but not the other way round?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying the wizard shows his usefulness for the party by what he, and only he, can do. The monk has yet to show that.

The Joker uses primarily wands, not scrolls, and definietly no scrolls at levels 1-10. At high levels, he uses scrolls that he can cast outside of combat (like mind blank).

That's an awfully expensive buff to be rebuying daily.

And AMF is possible with a wand of greater heroism to be pushed to +25 modifier to make it 75% likely to be activated and ending an NPC Batman's reign at that level. Those are good odds.

Again, competing against a specific thing. Batman. That's the DM villain concept, not the PC concept. Though the wand of greater heroism + the other resources + the scroll? A LOT of WBL for that 1 use ability. And I won't get into AMF = win. There are too many variables to predict such a thing.

You'll notice the Joker has some of these pearls already.

Thus, there is some sense in the item purchase choices.

Yes, this strange notion again. Batman helping Joker - pure pity. Joker helping Batman - not necessary or even possible.
Who is making an agressive class vs class argument here?

I never stated anything of the sort. I'm showing that, if the buffs are so necessary as to justify devoting massive assets to it, a cost effective way to ensure you receive it is to allow the wizard to help you at little cost to himself. More cost effective, and accomplishes the same goal. Still, again, this is better performed by other classes, and the only thing needed is the caster. Points made above for that.

Well, summarised that - it's difficult to track it bit by bit. But your message is clear: the wand budget is not enough.
Well, I outlined to Reel on, Love above already that by level 10 the Joker will be able to have cast 1,000 first level spells. That should be enough for all purposes, since it is the first level spells the Joker intends to make most use of in those first 10 levels.

And, as I outlined, your numbers are off. The bit by bit amount is not difficult to track. I did it for levels 1-20 in 5 minutes. Applies equally to all classes. Multiply the average wealth gained per encounter by 14. From that, subtract (WBL of higher level - WBL of lower level.) That's your disposable WBL, or the amount the game expects you to spend when you adventure. Spending more puts you under WBL. By dismissing it as overly complicated, you fail to take into account that it is correct, and it directly refutes your numbers.

As you outlined yourself above, there are other ways to make use of UMD than in combat. So no crucial actions wasted.

Any action wasted in combat? Wasted. If you're restricting yourself to out of combat only? Don't count on Enlarge Person before level 14.

Though it is possible to spend more than your disposable WBL on disposable items, such as Wands and Scrolls, doing so will cause your WBL to fall behind the rest of the party, as you're spending into your permanent wealth on things you'll use and destroy.

It does not fall behind the rest, since the monk has so many class abilities that he can afford to spend his money on other stuff.

Wrong. If the Fighter buys a +1 sword, and hits 50 things with it, it's still worth 2300 gp and change. Absolutely no disposable income lost.
If a monk buys a wand of enlarge, and over 4 levels, uses it, he's out 750gp of disposable wealth.
This is why you're wrong. You fail to grasp that you'll use your WBL faster than the core rules expect you to, putting you behind the curve for WBL at upper levels.

Imo it illustrates that you have failed to read it through. It is quite revealing that your post actually only deals with part II.1. (on the Giamonk principles) and then simply shrugs off all the rest.

Because, by your bolded text in my initial post, UMD is a key feature of the class. For brevity, and time, I restricted myself to that. Not because I didn't read it.

I hope that at least some readers of this thread (if not posters) will get something out of the guide. You apparently do not.

I got a laugh. Does that count?

I wonder how many things will simply repeat what I already posted. But I hope for new insights to add to the Joker's already vast versatility.

Some things will likely bear reprinting, however, all research is independently derived, and is not being made from the same point of view as you. I fail to see how you'll draw too awfully much from it.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Coming up next:

Druide, where's my Cart? Kurald Galain's Guide to Commoners. In which I honestly am not dissing the druid class, I'm just showing that commoners are a much better class. Than druids. You see, they're called commoners because everybody plays one (that's what "common" means)

It's from the Latin 'communus'.

[Reinboom]

You can sell a 1988 Audi at any used car lot, but the chances of going to any used car lot and finding a 1988 Audi are much smaller. Understood?

Ahh...ignoring the wonders of the internet...
But seriously, it is handled a bit different in the core rules where the only thing affecting availability is the value or price (used interchangeably in the core rules).

By the way, can you quote the specific text for those of us without a copy of the DMG?

That was done already further up by a different poster, but just for you again:

p. 199 "Charged Magic Items: A player may select a partially used magic item for part of his character's starting gear. Such an item's value is proportional to the charges left compared to the charges in a newly created item."

p. 214: "Prices listed are always for fully charged items. (When an item is created, it is fully charged). For an item that's worthless when its charges run out (which is the case for almost all charged items), the value o f the partialyl used item is proportional to the number of charges left."
Now, as we know from economics 101, value or price is derived from two things: supply and demand. If demand does not exist, the value is 0, if supply does not exist, the value is infinite. So if the DMG assumes a simple proportional rule for value, it assumes demand and supply. Simple.
Like it or not, it's part of the game.

I would like to intercept this portion, in saying there is an error in the argument itself that makes the proof faulty.

But seriously, it is handled a bit different in the core rules where the only thing affecting availability is the value or price (used interchangeably in the core rules).
Portion specifically, is a view of the rules in which "there is no logical connection the rules clearly state to which a manner of verisimilitude can be reached." That is, "it is clearly not defined in the rules, thus the game world should be assumed to work this way."

While on the other hand.

Now, as we know from economics 101, value or price is derived from two things: supply and demand. If demand does not exist, the value is 0, if supply does not exist, the value is infinite. So if the DMG assumes a simple proportional rule for value, it assumes demand and supply. Simple.
Like it or not, it's part of the game.

This assumes that a game world would include the basis of supply and demand even though it is not in the rules. Which means you are basing a mannerism of attempting verisimilitude upon the game world despite that your last argument made a point to ignore such.

[Sir Giacomo]

THE PARTY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO RUN!!! If that's your strategy, my current Warblade would kick you from the party after the first fight. The Beguiler would probably kill you in your sleep afterwards, and the CG Sorcerer would probably help him.

And 2 out of these 3 are once again from the realm of non-core...

I won't even mention what the Ninja would do. You're part of a team, and your actions need to be taken based on what the team needs.

Sigh. Scouting. Flanking. Help the Rogue sneak with (sometimes) suicidal grappling and stuns. Help the group with UMD (CLW). With STR 20 at level 8, he could carry Solo's Ozymandias to safety with his extra speed. Later he can do that with dim door (also dimdooring the full power attack barbarian next to the BBEG). Pass around the pearls of power as needed. Be the party face at high levels. Take out enemy spellcasters. etc.
The Joker may be evil, but not group-unfriendly, unlike...

Even the "God guide" said a lot of times that the meatshield and glass cannon would feel like they won the encounter with his tactics, and to let them, because, after all, you're god, and you can let the mortals have their glory. You know about it, and that's what matters.

Yes, that is the right attitude with other pcs and will get you many friends.

The monk tactics you've listed wouldn't be beneficial to a party:
"Hey, caster, gimme a buff or 2, I need them to be effective."
*he buffs you, spending his class abilities*
"Ohsh-This enemy is buffed, let's retreat and wait it out"
"It's faster than the rest of us! We can't, we'll have to fight!"
"Screw you guys" *flees*

*flees* and carries party caster with him, thanks to his two STR-enhancing buff spells (bulls strength and enlarge). Or helps them all with total concealment for bottle. Or Grapples biggest enemy, taking hits while the others flee and THEN tumble away with superior speed.

In all honesty, the monk makes a great solo opponent for the party. As a DM, you can build a bit Schroedinger, it can survive and escape repeatedly, but it's not likely to kill any of the PCs with it's damage output, so it can be a great recurring Dragon. However, in a party, "survive" isn't enough to get you 1/4th of the loot. You have to contribute to do that. Great saves and a high move speed can help someone make it through anything,

Yep. Part of the guide is meant to cover that: provide challenging npcs for the DM.

but in a party enviroment, you have to stick together, and the monk can't do much to help actually "defeat" an encounter, just to escape it.

Read. The. Guide. And the example character. Level by level. Really.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

I see. So, a monk using a 1st level spell wand is exactly as game-breaking/problematic as a commoner using a 9th level spell with odd spell interpretations? Hmmm. Does this sound odd to anyone else?

Is as gamebreaking as using Leadership, Polymorph, etc, etc.

[Sir Giacomo]

Oh, Oh, Oh I get to do a Morbo!
COMBAT REFLEXES DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!
Charging doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity for you to use combat reflexes. You need Hold the Line, a non-core feat. Giamonk would run away.

No, he would not. Enlarged, the Joker has 10ft reach, meaning the charging attacker will trigger an AoO reaching the Joker. You even have -2 AC.

- Giacomo

[Reinboom]

I see. So, a monk using a 1st level spell wand is exactly as game-breaking/problematic as a commoner using a 9th level spell with odd spell interpretations? Hmmm. Does this sound odd to anyone else?

"naw, this does not show commoners are good, it's just broken/stupid stuff.."

For the failure rate:
Show how. Exactly. Don't just say it can be. Exact builds, data, etc.
On everything. Everything needs to be directly supported. Others have shown their's.

Er...am I in the wrong thread? Hint: page 1: the guide.

I did, I see your builds - and I see that they are have a high failure rate with UMD. So those clearly are not the builds that would counter-argue to this.

On the obscuring mist:
The difference between 75% chance from a Monk and 95% chance from a Rogue is VERY significant. As is in comparison to all actions. Also, obscuring mist is a singular example, I would like to see more than that. We now have obscuring mist on the list - which is prime in it's own situational set up. However, more information is required than singular examples.

Yes, it is very significant. In that the rogue has a huge problem in the obscuring mist: his sneak attacks are blocked. So the mist and concealment is a monk blind-fight tactics, but never a rogue tactics.

I read the initial "escape pod" as "use obscuring mist to retreat". In the other situation, hey - since we are relying on fellow casters to do a lot of work for us.
Rogue: "Don't worry, I can use my obscuring mist successfully 5 times more often than the monk over there, I'm reliable for you, my wizard buddy, to provide cover for you to cloudkill in. Or whatever you do. While I go over here and flank with mr. warblade over there to get sneak attacks on the enemy left out of the mist!"

[Sir Giacomo]

I would like to intercept this portion, in saying there is an error in the argument itself that makes the proof faulty.
(...).

Yep - actually you are correct here. My argument was contradictory.

Still, the rules I quoted are even simpler:
Wands cost x. This is modified according to the rules I listed for partially charged wands. Availabiltiy is defined as per DMG. 137 Table on community gp limit.

It is really easy.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

*flees* and carries party caster with him, thanks to his two STR-enhancing buff spells (bulls strength and enlarge). Or helps them all with total concealment for bottle. Or Grapples biggest enemy, taking hits while the others flee and THEN tumble away with superior speed.

Take hits with d8 hit dies and moderate CON? Or does your monk have high Con (Ah ah ah! But no MAD!)

[Fenix_of_Doom]

No, he would not. Enlarged, the Joker has 10ft reach, meaning the charging attacker will trigger an AoO reaching the Joker. You even have -2 AC.

- Giacomo

Like that matters, read this again please:

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity

Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.
Moving

Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
Performing a Distracting Act

Emphasis mine.
Read this for reference

BTW would you please respond to my problems with your spellstaff trick?

[Solo]

You mean...a non-caster should never be ever buffed by a spell? Because, you know, it is not a class ability.

You can't build around receiving buffs from others.

Well, that's not true. You can, you just shouldn't.

It was actually Reel on. Love's table and it by now got disproven (see above).

No, Talic's table, the one from a month or so ago. Another thread.

Flurried that's already 52.5 damage.

And with your medium BAB and medium or low STR, you are going to hit with all your attacks how?

By spending rounds pre-buffing, of course, while the enemy patiently waits.

And we assume that you get a full round's worth of actions.

And if you do, I'm pretty sure a power attacking barbarian will do more damage.

Against Ozymandias, the grapple is more than enough.

Assuming he isn't invisible, flying (Overland Flight, Phantom Steed offhand), Displaced, Blinking.....

____________________________

With regard to the Guide devoting a disproportionate amount of space to PvPing wizards,

Actually, I wrote about that nowhere in the guide, which is the funny part about it. You WISH to read it in there, although it is not there.

Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
Making the Most of What you Have (When Casters Believe What They Have Is Already Ridiculously Good)

As a monk you’re – as Frank Miller would have paraphrased as well – the goddamn Joker!
Relying on tricks and unusual stuff to overcome the physically…er magically stronger Batman.

Some things that will help you in your noble quests to make life miserable for casters:

Basically, what would hurt casters most?

Normally stopping the spells/spellcasting of a caster means almost certain win.

This joker (or Giamonk) build is intended to be quite versatile, but with a bias to combat casters.

[Reinboom]

Yep - actually you are correct here. My argument was contradictory.

Still, the rules I quoted are even simpler:
Wands cost x. This is modified according to the rules I listed for partially charged wands. Availabiltiy is defined as per DMG. 137 Table on community gp limit.

It is really easy.

- Giacomo

You are referencing a table that is an even weaker RAW holding than the magic item creation guidelines.
So, I will accept your argument, as the truth and ultimate raw - for I can clearly read the paragraph that followed from my open DMG.

However, I shall counter argument this example by declaring you to read the first few lines of generating towns for a counter "RAW" argument.

"When the PCs come into a town and you need to generate the facts about the town quickly, you can use the following material."

Thus, this only occurs in which cases the town has been generated by a DM short of time or was placed on the spot for a new town. In order to find if this argument is valuable, we will need, at minimum, a decent view of the average amount of times DMs have and how strongly they railroad.

[Reel On, Love]

Yep - actually you are correct here. My argument was contradictory.

Still, the rules I quoted are even simpler:
Wands cost x. This is modified according to the rules I listed for partially charged wands. Availabiltiy is defined as per DMG. 137 Table on community gp limit.

It is really easy.

- Giacomo

I'll get to the rest tomorrow (I do love how you simultaneously say the monk is better because he can flurry in a grapple, and use the NON-flurry value for his skill... and manage to assume that having +1 over an enemy is all it takes to render them totally helpless), but...

...no.
You're wrong.
Characters can be created with partially-charged wands, because they might have bought those wands and used them.

If you FIND a partially charged wand, you can sell it.

That is all the rules say.

Nowhere does it say that an existing character can buy wands with as many charges as you want. You made that up. You're frantically scrambling for justification, because your build depends so heavily on partially-charged wands.

There is not a supply of 1-charge wands. If you want a PHB item, a caster can make that item. All you gotta do is wait a few days.
If you want a 1-charge wand, someone has to make/buy a wand, use 49 charges, and then for some reason decide to sell the almost-empty 1-charge wand. This would never happen.

Trying to buy partially charged wands is throwing yourself at the mercy of the DM.

You're reaching for things like "logically" (it's not) and "supply and demand" (doesn't exist in D&D, prices are fixed; doesn't work the way you want it to) because you know the rules don't support you.
You KNOW this doesn't work. You KNOW no DM would let you buy wands with 1 charge even if it did work. So why don't you drop it already?

[Renegade Paladin]

Read again what I wrote in the guide in the level 1 joker build section about this. It is a tough choice. But without improved grapple as a bonus feat, you simply will have to have a starting DEX of 15 (or you lose the feat enlarged), which costs a bit much from point buy.
Meanwhile, grappling is a great tactics for low-mid level against pretty much all opponetns. Stunning Fist, though, at low levels, is not such a great effect vs what it does at higher levels.

A possibly valid point; however I would argue that making an enemy lose his action is superior to making an enemy and yourself lose their actions, especially since Stunning Fist gives the opportunity to do that to multiple enemies, which Improved Grapple does not.

No. Rage gives +2, enlarge gives +5 to grapple.

You obviously are not familiar with barbarians. At level 15, he has Greater Rage. (And yes, a core barbarian would have the same thing.) It gives him +3; congratulations, using that wand gave you about a fifty percent chance to achieve parity. And if that high probability of your UMD check not working came into play, the monk is already dead.

Runescarred? Are you telling me that you think UMD is not good but come up with something non-core that emulates it more easily? Wow.
And a barbarian does not get as much out of divine power, which has been shown already countless times, simply because the barbarian already HAS full BAB. Plus likely already a permanent STR-boost item, which is occupied in the monk's case with a monk's belt.

Emulates UMD? No, it doesn't emulate UMD at all, since there's no failure chance; it's more akin to actually casting spells. Which, y'know, is the kind of thing this build is designed to defeat, and it can't. As for divine power, you're right about the BAB, but his belt slot is otherwise occupied as well, so it's still a cool STR boost.

Yes, great going. Unfortunately at that level (which I also pointed out in my guide. Read it guys, READ IT!), the monk can do x numbe of attacks and actually force your babarian to do FIVE fort saves in one hit, if he so wishes. All of a sudden you sweat a bit more not to roll that "1". And what is worse: the next round there will be 4 more saves coming. And so on. And so on.

If there is a next round. The damage averages say there won't be.

Yep. (see above).
And your babarian is not stopped dead in his tracks by total concealment? Hmmm.

I have no idea what a babarian is, but all total concealment does is reduce the barbarian's chances of hitting you to the same chance of you actually managing a UMD check. And since that concealment comes from blinking, of all things, the monk suffers a miss chance as well, and then suffers a second miss chance due to the (core) cloak of displacement.

You forget that meanwhile the monk also has full BAB thanks to divine power. So they are not that far apart. What is more, the monk has higher base damage which your babarian needs to equate with reducing his attack bonus for power attack. In core, that puts them around on more or less equal footing (although the barbarian, of course, has way more staying power in prolonged melee- which is OK because the monk has a different role).

You didn't show your work on your attack bonuses, and the line I was reading said it was with all buffs active. If it actually wasn't, you shouldn't have said that.

The monk is not fully buffed yet. And the mass of dice is quite reliable when you roll often enough...

Ah, so a full attack, is it? That means you're still standing right there when Rraskinar wants to send one back your way. Have fun with that.

Yeah, that's just non-core gravy.

Yeah, but the weapon property being non-core has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it's base damage, which does not depend on the property at all, has already killed the monk. All Brutal Surge does is allow the weapon to initiate a bull rush, which (unless there's a nearby cliff) doesn't actually hurt the target.

While the Joker monk has blink up at that point (also providing +2 to hit the barbarian does not have).

A +2 to hit and a 20% miss chance for himself. That is, +10% on the die roll, but a 20% chance of missing no matter what the die says. Blink is a net loss for attacking; it's an excellent defensive spell, but the side effects make fighting back more, not less, difficult.

Yes, of course. Totally non-optimised.

And? It is. I put no extensive planning into this build at all; he progressed naturally over the course of a 1 to (so far; it isn't over yet) 15 campaign. Fully half his feats reflect honorary berserker lodge memberships and don't actually synergize with his build. If I wanted to sit down and build a straight barbarian with a coherent build strategy, his damage totals would be even higher.

And if you want to insist on core, it'd be even higher still, since I wouldn't be wasting money on the non-core properties and equipment you complained about... almost none of which actually affect his real primary combat ability; for the most part they're just cool toys. Brutal surge? He had that put on his axe because he's a bodyguard, if he wants someone to get away from his witch, then they're going away. It actually hurts him if he uses it in a toe to toe fight, since in that situation he wants his enemy to stay in front of him so he can wail on him some more.

[Illiterate Scribe]

So if the DMG assumes a simple proportional rule for value, it assumes demand and supply. Simple.
Like it or not, it's part of the game.

Er ... no. The value in having 1 charge on a wand vs. 0 charges left on a wand, is far greater than the value on having 2 charges on a wand vs. having 1 charge on a wand.

Face it, Giacomo, you can either have the slightly arbitrary, simplified construct of the RAW - which doesn't allow you to actually buy these partial wands anywhere, even if you can start with them - or you have the RAI (and, to some extent, insofar as NPCs are treated the same under the rules as PCs, RAW) approach, which uses real economics, in which the relationship between charges and value is definitely not proportional.

[Solo]

And the mass of dice is quite reliable when you roll often enough...

It reliably gets you the average value, yes...

[Arbitrarity]

Huh. I learned something from this guide. I learned that dimension door only makes the caster unable to take actions until next turn. I never looked at that before.

For those batmen retreating to a MMM or tower (abandoning adventuring) the Joker would only say:
“I'm givin' away free money, and where is the Batman? He's at home washing his tights!”

Ah, so sleeping is abandoning adventure. It's a good thing your monk doesn't have to... wait...*assasinates GMonk*
Also, batman doesn't wash his tights. He has prestidigitation and a horde of servants.
Oh, maybe sleeping smartly is not adventuring. So adventuring consists of putting yourself in deliberate danger, so you can save up to two spell slots. In other words, adventurers are stupid.

Well, this follows with stereotypical viewpoints, I must admit

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, and the last for today - will need a longer break now and do some real life work done...

Wrong. Your guide is loaded with comments on how well a monk can beat casters. Very little is devoted to showing how the monk helps the party.

Perception is in the eye of the beholder (no, not that one...)

In fact, most of it is showing how the party helps the monk, to beat casters.

Yes. UMD is a typical skill that can only be used with the "help another" option...or wait...it isn't.

I understand if you're not 100% on it, it is 7 pages back. Feel free to review it and get back to me.

You advise me to read one of your posts way back showing what allegedly is written in my guide? Hmm. Will do it.

The majority of you OP is designed around the concept of "Monk vs caster". That is not "party contribution".

Because opponent casters are very rare, yes.

That's "monk > caster".

Nope, it is "monk > caster" in 50% of the times. Other times, the caster will beat the monk. It's called balance. Or, the monk is stronger vs casters, while the casters are in turn stronger than other classes. Close call.

Friendly reminder, stating that someone obviously didn't read what you wrote is a violation of board policies if I'm not mistaken. There's a forum rules thread at the top of the section that can give the specifics, I believe.

Talic, if you maintain that my build reaches safe UMD usage only at level 20 despite it being clearly written to be already so at level 15 to then fail to use his wand of enlarge - does this tell me that you have read my guide or not?
But OK, thanks for the hint, I'll abide by the rule and no longer maintain anyone has not read my guide when commenting on it.

Also, I'm not responding to what you "allegedly" said. I'm responding to Post 1 of this thread. It's a while back there, again, feel free to refresh yourself on it, as the thread has seemingly devolved into grappling discussion for some time.

Hmm. Maybe I misunderstand here.
Post one of this thread is the first part of my guide.
Post one of another posters is Nebo's short comment "Swordsages are better".
Do you mean your first post? Pls then point out to me what passage you mean where I should have a closer look again.

Accusation? Have I posted with any statements lauding one class over another here? No, I've debated your specific posts here. Nothing else.

OK. So you believe the monk is as good as the other (core) classes, and thus you differ only in my approach to show what can be done about that.
Welcome to the monk defense club, then!

As actions are at a premium in combat, when the wizard uses a spell to buff the monk, the wizard is using his combat currency to help another class. The monk then does what he does. When the monk attacks, he's overcoming the challenge, with the wizard's assistance. The wizard is showing that he can help another class.

While the monk who made the (buffed) attack did not show anything? Imo an odd perception of how teamwork works.

Outside of combat and inside of combat are two totally different worlds. Outside, time is less regimented, and you have actions. In the typical combat, you have 3-5 standard actions to spend. The wizard must choose to do something with those actions, whether it's block LOS, grease an enemy, magic missile, web, or what. When he spends that action HELPING the monk, he isn't doing anything else. If he is giving up his ability to do nothing but assist the monk in doing his task, it's fair to say that the wizard is showing usefulness to the party, if that buff is effective.

Which is why I devoted so much effort in the guide to show that you should find alternatives to buffing IN combat at low levels. Meanwhile, lord_khaine pointed out the obvious help of (more expensive) potions of enlarge to overcome the main combat buff problem.

The monk isn't showing any more usefulness than anyone else, if that same spell could be applied to another class just as well. Let's say Barbarian. 18 str, 22 rage, 24 enlarge for a +14 total grapple mod, and with reach, won't provoke from most enemies.

A STR 18 barbarian? This seems to come at a cost somehwere. Let me see. Yes, likely that barbarian will not have a DEX of 15 necessary to keep the improved grapple feat in enlarged form. And why again should the barbarian devote ALL of his feats into an attacking form that makes least use out of his power attack option (least as in: NO use).?

Let's say fighter. 18 str,+2 enlarge, Improved grapple, for a total of +5 str +3 BAB +4 Size +4 Improved grapple or +16.

Now that is something better - because a fighter has the feats to spare. Still, the fighter falls behind the monk for the same MAD reasons (DEX 15 AND STR 18? So what kind of othter stats are there? The first Charm Person is going to take this guy out, worse, may turn him against the party).
No, for a fighter unarmed fighting may be one of various things to develop at later levels, but otherwise the weaponmaster of the game should also make use of said weapons. He'll never be able to outgrapple the Joker monk at high levels, for instance.

Both classes can do it just as well, if not better, with little effort. 18 str is something good for both classes anyway.

And not for the monk?

Now, in a perfect world, we'd have enough for everyone, but when the wizard has the choice between the 18str barbarian and the 14 str monk for that enlarge... `

No, the wizard should better somehow protect the barbarian vs falling victim to a charm spell, for instance with well-timed protection from evil.

Well, it doesn't show that the monk is bad. Just that the other class is better at that specific task. In any case, regardless of who that buff's on, the character's in the double digits anyway (though the fighter was already there, with +11 pre-boost). , so the wizard is the one aspect of that that can't change. Some classes are just more proficient at grappling. In this instance? The fighter can do that task best. Barbarian is second. Monk is third. The fighter has the best chance of doin' the dance without the buff tho.

No. Read the monk guide AGAIN (notice that this time I am not saying that you haven't read it at all ). The section monk myths where I show what the monk class does best. And grappling is among that.

18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 8 cha used for both builds. 32 point build.

And whoops- the two guys lose the improved grapple feat in enlarge. And you compare 32 point buy to my 28 point buy, how neat! And btw they are dangerously specialised - they actually NEED the group around them all the time to not succumb to enemy spells and enemy ambushes.

Again, I read it fully. I just don't agree with it. Again, I'd appreciate it if you didn't levy that accusation. I find it personally insulting, to be honest.

OK. Although you have to admit that your following rebuttal of my lengthy work left me a bit...disappointed:

As for the rest? The majority of the concept of the post is a direct confrontation between classes, and as such, is limited in usefulness for practical character development. Expect a monk guide from me focusing on monk utility, versatility, and usefulness later on.

Plus, you set a not that friendly tone with "disassembly commences" at the start of your post. So I kindly ask you to also tone down a bit.

Non-caster classes need melee backup a good portion of the time. That doesn't explain why that melee backup should be the monk. The wizard is at his best when he makes the most out of what's available, whether its terrain, party members, or whatnot. The monk is at his best when the wizard's enhancing him. The difference is the wizard is proactively changing something. The monk is waiting to be changed before he does anything.

Hmmm. You now mean my monk build, do you? Not monks in general (because you seem to also believe monks are on equal footing to the other classes).
Anyhow, you have probably found out about my opinion on whether only wizards help the monk while the monk never is able to help the party wizard.

I did. Again. I did. My request on this has already been made. I'll leave it at that.

What was that request again?

I hate to sound like a broken record, but you're starting to. With an 18 cha, full level boosts into Cha, and skill focus, you'll get +19 two levels earlier. At level 19. If you want the MW Skill item? Note, that's for craft skills, and other items not listed are by DM approval, since they're not in core.
With a +6 Cha Item, it drops it lower. To level 14. That's about as low as you'll get, but you'll need a 36k item, whose only purpose is to make your disposable items more useful. It will succeed at that. Now you can spend round 1 of combats buffing yourself, while everyone else DOES something.

Ah, please have a look at my build of level 15. Imagine also the Joker using heroism with rod of extension way before combat. Tadaa...level 13. And I have shown already how you can get safe wand usage in combat even at level 9 in case you really need it (normally you would not).
As for the MW skill item, what does the PHB passage "This entry covers just about anything else." tell you? (PHB pp 130-131). Actually Reel on, Love, provided me in fairness with that idea in the first place in an earlier thread - and you can definitely not maintain he likes my wand Joker monk

No, at some point I feel it's not worth the assets invested for the gain you receive. From what I've listed, the assets expended are:
50% of a 32 point buy's stats.
1 feat (18.3% of feats)
1/6 of the character's class based skill points.
2/3 of attribute boosts up to level 14
36,000 gp

All for the ability to reliably use wands.

Now, let's take a rogue, 14 Cha. (1/6 of class based skill points)
Max ranks in UMD (1/8 of class granted skill points)
1 feat (18.3% of feats)
No Attribute boosts
4,000 gp on a +2 cloak of cha

Achieves +19 UMD at level 10.
With more stats for good dex, good sneak attack, good hide abilities, attribute boosts, WBL for other things, etc.

Yes, the WBL needs the saved WBL for other things go to: dim door ability, save boost, poison proof, move enhancement and some way to escape grappling attacks except the sub-par escape artist way and tough spells.

Less investment, lower level, equal return. This is why it's good. Except the rogue will go for a wand of Reduce person, for extra dex, size to AC, and the like.

Yes, that's what he should do. The monk should use different things that synergise with that class. Each class to its speciality.

Sigh. I did. It's just rubbish information, that's all.

OK, I take issue with this one. "Rubbish information". You reprimand me for maintaining that you have not read the guide and you write stuff like that? Wow. Just wow.

Which is? I still fail to see anything that other classes can't do better.

Move. Grapple. Scout. Defense.

Wrong. Illegal targets fizzle spells. Reread section on "holding a charge". It doesn't mention an illegal target. Any touch will trigger it. Yeah.

Meaning actually that since a wizard at the low level he gets his touch spells will trigger them immediately because he touches the ground. Hmmm. You probably are alone in your interpretation here.
"Touch" actually means "touch attack".

Instead, relying on the wizard to make sure he stays viable, rather than make another party member or area of the battlefield control.

Why do you keep on posting that when the Joker uses UMD outside combat he needs a wizard? Yes, a wizard at one point in the past CREATED the wand, but this is also the case with magic weapons and armour.

I'll refer you to the SRD, Monk, skill list, look through several of the Dex and Str based skills. Many do require hands. Not all, certainly, but then, I never claimed that, did I?

No, you said "many".
Let us see...
Balance - can be used with hands full
Climb - ah, one skill that cannot be used with full hands. Guess it's the only one.
Concentration - can be used with hands full.
Craft - ah, cannot be used with hands full, although it is not exactly a monk's class skill, but almost everyone has it...
Diplomacy - can be usd with hands full.
Escape Artist - can be used with hands full.
Hide - can be used with hands full
Jump - can be used with hands full
Knowledge (any) - can be used with hands full
Listen - can be used with hands full
Move Silently - can be used with hands full.
Perform - can be used with hands full.
Profession - depends
Sense Motive - can be used with hands full.
Spot, Swim, Tumble - all can be used with hands full!

Yes, a great many. I see.

That's not whining. Please do not use derogotory terms when referencing me. I find it offensive.

If you cease yours, the peace holds! (no, actually, I'll calm no matter what you post).

I find it odd that the monk requires those expendable items to function, and without them, is behind in many of his strategies. I'm stating that your idea for use of WBL, innovative as it is, is impractical, and not worth the expenditure of assets and resources to make it viable.

Hmmm. Casters have expandable resources/day, and yet no-one would think that is a problem (although in practice it is more often than many would admit).
1000 first level spell usages by level 10 is enough, I guess.

Stealth, the rogue outperforms.

Nope. The rogue may devote more to DEX (but likely less to WIS for spot/listen), but he lacks the movement enhancement that makes the monk scouting so highly useful.

The monk has dim door. That's it. It doesn't get the party anywhere though. It's a "me only" ability... Which is of limited use to the party, beyond perhaps lowering a rope down afterwards... Which could have been taken care of with less resource loss if the wizard levitated the rogue or other class. Again, teamwork is key.

No, you can take someone with you in a dimdoor. At 12th level, you can bring along 2 medium creatures, four if the party has reduced size for some reason...

Though animals and vermin scale for their HD faster than the monk keeps up too.

Yep, but you can have some wand charges with hide from animals and repel vermin for those rare occasions that they turn up.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying the wizard shows his usefulness for the party by what he, and only he, can do.

I never doubted that a wizard can contribute to a party.

The monk has yet to show that.

Well, since you apparently believe the monk can keep up, if built in a different way, I am looking forward to your monk guide.

That's an awfully expensive buff to be rebuying daily.

What makes you think he'll cast an AMF on a daily basis? Silence is enough in most cases.

Again, competing against a specific thing. Batman.

Yep, vs the npc kind. (check my introduction)

That's the DM villain concept, not the PC concept. Though the wand of greater heroism + the other resources + the scroll? A LOT of WBL for that 1 use ability. And I won't get into AMF = win. There are too many variables to predict such a thing.

Around 1,740 gp per usage. If the spellstaff trick would be allowed, it costs much less (90 gp).

Thus, there is some sense in the item purchase choices.

Thanks.

I never stated anything of the sort. I'm showing that, if the buffs are so necessary as to justify devoting massive assets to it, a cost effective way to ensure you receive it is to allow the wizard to help you at little cost to himself. More cost effective, and accomplishes the same goal. Still, again, this is better performed by other classes, and the only thing needed is the caster.

Which is a longer way of stating what I said, thanks. "The only thing needed is the caster." means exactly what I wrote. You basically advise going away from the UMD idea and go exclusively to the pc caster for help, at which point you would say "joker relies on caster". Nice try.

Points made above for that.And, as I outlined, your numbers are off. The bit by bit amount is not difficult to track. I did it for levels 1-20 in 5 minutes. Applies equally to all classes. Multiply the average wealth gained per encounter by 14. From that, subtract (WBL of higher level - WBL of lower level.) That's your disposable WBL, or the amount the game expects you to spend when you adventure. Spending more puts you under WBL. By dismissing it as overly complicated, you fail to take into account that it is correct, and it directly refutes your numbers.

Hmmm. Let us see. 1000 first level spells by level 10. This is 140 encounters, according to your calculations. Meaning 140 Enlarges can be cast.
That leaves plenty of usages for other occasions, or multiple buffs for one encounter (say, a shield wand on top of the enlarge...). Or higher level wand buffs like silence and heroism.
And this does not even count that at low levels, some encounters are also traps which the joker monk can survive/trigger quite well, without any buffs.

Any action wasted in combat? Wasted. If you're restricting yourself to out of combat only?

Yes, but I posted in this post, previous posts and the original guide the great many things you can do already outside combat.

Don't count on Enlarge Person before level 14.

With potions, I can.

Wrong. If the Fighter buys a +1 sword, and hits 50 things with it, it's still worth 2300 gp and change.Absolutely no disposable income lost.

Yes, but both characters will have cleared their encounters and contributed. It does not matter if at the end of the adventuring life, the character can hang the sword +1 on the wall or an empty wand.

If a monk buys a wand of enlarge, and over 4 levels, uses it, he's out 750gp of disposable wealth.

Yes. Your point being?

This is why you're wrong. You fail to grasp that you'll use your WBL faster than the core rules expect you to, putting you behind the curve for WBL at upper levels.

No, you still fail to see how much can be done already with level 1 wands.

Because, by your bolded text in my initial post, UMD is a key feature of the class. For brevity, and time, I restricted myself to that. Not because I didn't read it.

Maybe you wish to comment on the other 95%?

I got a laugh. Does that count?

Yes, it would count in your book as offensive.

Some things will likely bear reprinting, however, all research is independently derived, and is not being made from the same point of view as you. I fail to see how you'll draw too awfully much from it.

So you basically say I made up the guide of thin air?
The sources I used:
- SRD/core rules.
- hundreds of posts in the past year.

But I'm looking forward to your guide!

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

BTW would you please respond to my problems with your spellstaff trick?

I did, I think, way up. Basically, I could understand why a DM would not allow the spellstaff trick.
And the charging opponent leavesl the square 10ft away from the monk, so this triggers an AoO before he actually reaches the 5ft square.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

A possibly valid point; however I would argue that making an enemy lose his action is superior to making an enemy and yourself lose their actions, especially since Stunning Fist gives the opportunity to do that to multiple enemies, which Improved Grapple does not.

Yes, but only round, after round, and only to one at a time. But I also see your point - it's a close call for 1st level monks, and I guess for the grappling tactics it's better to take the improved grapple as bonus feat.

You obviously are not familiar with barbarians. At level 15, he has Greater Rage. (And yes, a core barbarian would have the same thing.) It gives him +3; congratulations, using that wand gave you about a fifty percent chance to achieve parity. And if that high probability of your UMD check not working came into play, the monk is already dead.

? +5 vs +3 sounds still like advantage joker here. At level 15, the joker monk can safely use his wand in combat, and the divine power likely is also up (since the monk will notice the barbarian way before the other way round, the spot/hide duel and all).

Emulates UMD? No, it doesn't emulate UMD at all, since there's no failure chance; it's more akin to actually casting spells. Which, y'know, is the kind of thing this build is designed to defeat, and it can't. As for divine power, you're right about the BAB, but his belt slot is otherwise occupied as well, so it's still a cool STR boost.

Yes, it's better than UMD. As a non-caster, you get to cast spells with this non-core thing.

If there is a next round. The damage averages say there won't be.

Well, truth to tell, the ideal of the monk is not to go to lengthly melee vs a barbarian. And that was never the intention - as outlined in the guide.

I have no idea what a babarian is, but all total concealment does is reduce the barbarian's chances of hitting you to the same chance of you actually managing a UMD check.

The blink effect is from the ring that is cheaper than your cloak of displacement that lasts only 15 rounds that day - with his higher move, the monk can wait that out.

And since that concealment comes from blinking, of all things, the monk suffers a miss chance as well, and then suffers a second miss chance due to the (core) cloak of displacement.

Yes, that's true. So even more incentive to wait out the buff.

You didn't show your work on your attack bonuses, and the line I was reading said it was with all buffs active. If it actually wasn't, you shouldn't have said that.


Well, it is not with all buffs, though with the decisive ones. So I should have been clearer there. The monk has two more attacks at the highest bonus, and one overall more attack. It is difficult to say whether the barbarian makes up for that with his STR advantage (and power attack for the attacking difference).

Ah, so a full attack, is it? That means you're still standing right there when Rraskinar wants to send one back your way. Have fun with that.

Since a barbarian has more hp, similar AC and similar damage output, yes, the barbarian would win a lengthy melee. Which is a good thing, otherwise the monk would be too powerful imo.

Yeah, but the weapon property being non-core has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it's base damage, which does not depend on the property at all, has already killed the monk. All Brutal Surge does is allow the weapon to initiate a bull rush, which (unless there's a nearby cliff) doesn't actually hurt the target.

Yep, non-core feats can do a lot.

A +2 to hit and a 20% miss chance for himself. That is, +10% on the die roll, but a 20% chance of missing no matter what the die says. Blink is a net loss for attacking; it's an excellent defensive spell, but the side effects make fighting back more, not less, difficult.

No. It cuts down enemy attacks by 50%, own attacks only by 20%. Combined with, say, concealment from eversmoking bottle and the blind-fight feat, the monk is quite superior against many opponents (the barbarian with cloak of displacement not one of them, though).

And? It is. I put no extensive planning into this build at all; he progressed naturally over the course of a 1 to (so far; it isn't over yet) 15 campaign. Fully half his feats reflect honorary berserker lodge memberships and don't actually synergize with his build. If I wanted to sit down and build a straight barbarian with a coherent build strategy, his damage totals would be even higher.

Yep, a non-core build sometimes simply jumps out of the book at you.

[I]And if you want to insist on core, it'd be even higher still, since I wouldn't be wasting money on the non-core properties and equipment you complained about... almost none of which actually affect his real primary combat ability; for the most part they're just cool toys. Brutal surge? He had that put on his axe because he's a bodyguard, if he wants someone to get away from his witch, then they're going away. It actually hurts him if he uses it in a toe to toe fight, since in that situation he wants his enemy to stay in front of him so he can wail on him some more. [/I

Yep, as a I admitted - the barbarian is a stronger meleer over time than the monk. As he should be.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

You can't build around receiving buffs from others.

Well, that's not true. You can, you just shouldn't.

That is what UMD is for: to showcase that it there is a degree of independence from casters.

No, Talic's table, the one from a month or so ago. Another thread.

Please link it - I vaguely remember it as showing CR 6 creatures committing the same mistake that you once did trying to prove that many creatures have fire resistance and higher levels. Basically, you always have to build a ratio of those creatures able to outgrapple the monk to those who are not. And the npc humanoid casters that many DMs employ are always grappable until fom becomes common.
This is also the reason why I included in my guide a tactics change around level 8-9.

And with your medium BAB and medium or low STR, you are going to hit with all your attacks how?

Buffing. Flanking. Surprising (no DEX to AC) Touching (Grapple). It's not that at level 10, all CR 7-10 creatures are immune to grappling all of a sudden. The majority can still be grappled.

By spending rounds pre-buffing, of course, while the enemy patiently waits.

Yep, patiently, oblivious to the stealthy monk able to close to combat quickly with his high move.

And we assume that you get a full round's worth of actions.

Yep. This is common for a full attack.
Meanwhile, even one hit with a 3d8+4 and no-save ghoul's touch can take you quite far. Batman trying to do the same to the Joker, though, will have to suffer one AoO to even reach the enlarged monk AND overcome his higher touch AC.

And if you do, I'm pretty sure a power attacking barbarian will do more damage.

Yes, and he should. Because that is his niche.

Assuming he isn't invisible, flying (Overland Flight, Phantom Steed offhand), Displaced, Blinking.....

Yep, that is for levels 9 & up. Even the Joker can shoot the phantom steed from underneat the arcane caster, and then with his fly+monk enhancement bonus speed guess who is faster?
Displaced, blinking...sounds like a movie title, but not something that will help the caster much since it is only rounds/level. And cuts only 50% of a potential full attack.

Do not get me wrong here. It is not that I say that an arcane caster has no chance vs the Joker, at no levels. The only thing I say the Joker will always have a chance to beat him.

____________________________

With regard to the Guide devoting a disproportionate amount of space to PvPing wizards,

Yes, keep repeating it without being able to prove it. The stuff you quoted says nothing about pc casters. But if you intend to interpret it this way despite my clear statement in the introduction, you are free to do so.

OK, that's it for today.


- Giacomo

PS: since we apparentyl cannot agree on the partial wands viability, let us henceforth assume two campaigns: one where it is possible, one where it is not.
In the campaign where only fully charged wands are available basically it means the Joker monk will use enlarge from wands and spells from wands from level 4 and up. Enlarge potions before that. 2 levels difference. Is this really going to matter that much?
Silence this way becomes available around level 8, instead of level 3. Now that is much more of a difference, although it is a spell that can be cast outside the monk and makes great synergy with his fast movement.
Hope this calms that issue.

[Solo]

Yep, that is for levels 9 & up.

And since we're talking about a level 10 build, entirely appropriate.

Even the Joker can shoot the phantom steed from underneat the arcane caster

1d2 damage ftw!

and then with his fly+monk enhancement bonus speed guess who is faster?

Phantom steed gets 200 feet move at level 10. How fast is your monk moving?

Please link it - I vaguely remember it as showing CR 6 creatures committing the same mistake that you once did trying to prove that many creatures have fire resistance and higher levels. Basically, you always have to build a ratio of those creatures able to outgrapple the monk to those who are not.

I can't find it again, but as I recall, it showed that a substantial percentage would out-grapple you.

Buffing. Flanking. Surprising (no DEX to AC) Touching (Grapple). It's not that at level 10, all CR 7-10 creatures are immune to grappling all of a sudden. The majority can still be grappled.

Numbers, please?

Yep, patiently, oblivious to the stealthy monk able to close to combat quickly with his high move.

Assuming you can hide in the terrain, and the enemy doesn't notice you trying to activate a plethora of items.

Yep. This is common for a full attack.

And how common are full attacks?

Yes, keep repeating it without being able to prove it. The stuff you quoted says nothing about pc casters.

Alright, I think I mis-spoke. I meant you devoted a lot of the guide to taking out wizards. I was using the term PvP too loosely.

Meanwhile, even one hit with a 3d8+4 and no-save ghoul's touch can take you quite far. Batman trying to do the same to the Joker, though, will have to suffer one AoO to even reach the enlarged monk AND overcome his higher touch AC.

Batman isn't going to try to Ghoul Touch the Joker. He's going to toss out a Baleful Polymorph and laugh as you fail the save. (Remember how at level 10, you have a 70% chance to fail the save? Have fun with that.)

[Renegade Paladin]

Two things: First, how does the Giamonk plan on waiting out a lesser cloak of displacement? Unlike the greater version, they last all day. Secondly, +5 is more than +3, but since the barbarian's grapple modifier starts off higher to begin with, you're going to need more. Coincidentally, the difference at the level I was discussing is 2, so adding 3 to the barbarian and 5 to the monk gives them parity, which is what I said.

As for the prestige class giving him casting, it's not exactly the same - it works more like having scrolls scribed on his body; he just doesn't have to make a check to use them (and it costs him gold and XP to make them, just like scribing scrolls) - but there are core prestige classes that also give casting; this is not a feature unique to non-core material. Blackguard and assassin do the same thing, and actually do it better, since they give actual spell progression.

[Illiterate Scribe]

You can't rely on fighting casters all the time, Gia, that's the trouble, and that's why people don't play spellthieves.

Let us look at the various 'boss monsters' for the published, core, adventures:

Spoiler

Show

Expedition to Castle Ravenloft - Strahd. Caster, but also a nasty vampire. AH-AH-AH-AH-HAH!
Expedition to Undermountain - LOL TRAPS.
Barrow of the Forgotten King - Yuan-ti sorcerer. Caster.
Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk - OK, some casters - false Iggwilv and co. are fairly nasty, but they're mostly clerics.
Expedition to the Demonweb Pits - Aspects of Demons. A ton of them. Some SLAs but emphatically not casters.
Fortress of the Yuan-ti - Living Evard's Black Tentacles, Yuan-ti halfblood. Not casters.
Red Hand of Doom - Aspect of Tiamat. Not a caster.
Shattered Gates of Slaughterguard - some outsiders. Some SLAs, sure, mostly really nasty combat monsters.
Sinister Spire - Medusa/Yuan-ti halfblood. Not a caster.

The wonders of one's parents running a bookshop is that you can sneak looks at books you'd never buy.

Also, at the number of Yuan-ti?

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah one more, because imo it is one of the more unfair posts in this thread....

Open and shut. All arguements have been refuted, all qualifications, codified. He has been mathematically, logically, and to all depths and reaches of human understanding disproven, and I would like to provide you with this from the past...

[...inserts own comment from last year forecasting I never change my mind...]

It is more akin to watching the man on the street corner, ranting as to how the government is trying to spy upon his teeth, how the Venusians are monitoring his thoughts through Starbucks instore Wifi, and how Moon Ghosts are endevouring to keep him from being employable.

By which, I mean, Street Theater.

Yes, Bassetking, that is a way to discuss. You appear not to have changed your opinion one iota since, it appears. New evidence is piled up in front of you? Ignore mode, that's the way to do things...
But that's OK with me- you see, you lost all credibiltiy in discussing monks when you did builds with incorporal races and lawful bane weapons to defeat my monk

- Giacomo

PS @Solo:
- a crossbow bolt is 1d8 damage, 2d6 enlarged. And be warned to use a phantom steed (superior move) to evade combat and come back with a vengeance - Kurald Galain does not approve of such tactics...
- I would be glad, if you could check how much % of creatures the monk of my proposed build can take on by level 10. I did it for level 3, level 6 and 10. Thanks for your help! (you can use the link I provided further up).
- yes, full attack is quite rare.
- thanks for abandoning the notion that I posted a PvP guide.
- for a baleful polymorph, the caster needs to be within range (45 ft) to cast it, then he needs to be able to target (the monk has the bottle and his better move and will win the spot/hide contest, so it's going to be difficult) AND the monk has to fail BOTH fort and will save to be completely out of the game - do not forget the killer rabbit example...

[SamTheCleric]

Medium BAB and nonproficiency... you're not gonna hit much with that crossbow.

[Solo]

New evidence is piled up in front of you? Ignore mode, that's the way to do things...

Lulz.

That is what UMD is for: to showcase that it there is a degree of independence from casters.

UMD? The same UMD that you can't get off reliably at lower levels? The same UMD tha tburns a hole through your pocket throughout your entire career? That UMD?

And be warned to use a phantom steed (superior move) to evade combat and come back with a vengeance - Kurald Galain does not approve of such tactics..

To hell with evading, I'm going to fly above my enemies and taunt them, stay our of their reach of they come at me, and cast Baleful Polymorph on them from a distance.

[Sir Giacomo]

UMD? The same UMD that you can't get off reliably at lower levels? The same UMD tha tburns a hole through your pocket throughout your entire career? That UMD?

Yep, That UMD that will cost cash and yield great reward and synergy. 1000 castings by level 10. It's enough. That UMD that you can do so many things with even casting outside combat.

To hell with evading, I'm going to fly above my enemies and taunt them, stay our of their reach of they come at me, and cast Baleful Polymorph on them from a distance.

Yep, do that. Outcome uncertain, though.

- Giacomo